Calling all pagans...

[pillars]

where are the druids, wiccans, neopagans, asatruars, gaiaists, and other pagans on board? Surely there must be a few.

Treeshepherd Pogo strollingbones anyone else?

Let's create an ongoing spiritual conversation.

What is the pagan community like? What does it mean to be a pagan? And what benefits do you think come from holding pagan beliefs?

All serious questions. I've always wondered. I knew a girl who was raised Wiccan once but I was too young to really care to ask at the time.

For me at least there isn't really a pagan "community." I am a gaiaistic witch, for lack of a better term to describe myself. I pretty much am solitary, although on rare occasions I have gone to a couple of different wiccan or pagan circles. That's the rare exception in 10 years or so of being more pagan than anything else. I am not really a joiner, it would have to be a very exceptional coven to tempt me out of my hermitlike existence. My son is also somewhat pagan, but my husband is an atheist who humors me.

For me, at least, paganism just seems to fit me, it is a framework that helps me connect to the divine in a way that feels right, and it helps me manage my own internal landscape. It is logical to me.

As far as the benefits, I think it just helps the world make sense to me. It is the way that I reach out to that higher power, which reaches back. I don't necessarily believe in eternal life, though I think reincarnation is possible. I go back and forth on that one. I don't know if there is an eternal reward from it, but on a day to day basis, it helps me focus my desires and intentions in a way that is effective. Why am I a witch? it works. theologically, I don't know if I am actually shifting the status quo or changing myself, but either way, it's effective in a way that Christianity never was.

 

[pillars]

Fast forward many years and you get to John Muir and Edward Abbey. The druid abides.

I'm a huge Edward Abbey fan. Desert Solitaire and The Monkey Wrench Gang are two of my favorite books, like, ever. The earth is sacred to me. I am part of the earth, the earth is part of me, I am connected on every level to all that is around me. Christianity is a religion of dichotomies: good/evil, saved/unsaved, god/satan, us/them. Paganism is connection...no man is an island, we are all part of the whole. I cherish that connection to all that is.

 

[Treeshepherd]

where are the druids, wiccans, neopagans, asatruars, gaiaists, and other pagans on board? Surely there must be a few.

Treeshepherd Pogo strollingbones anyone else?

Let's create an ongoing spiritual conversation.

What is the pagan community like? What does it mean to be a pagan? And what benefits do you think come from holding pagan beliefs?

All serious questions. I've always wondered. I knew a girl who was raised Wiccan once but I was too young to really care to ask at the time.

For me it was Redwood Summer (1990) and the years following. I was involved in a massive effort to prevent the redwoods from being liquidated by a carpetbagging corporation from Houston. It was very pagan. Morning yoga rituals, pagan songs, prayers...We camped together, ate together, got thrown in jail together, etc.. I stopped doing all that when I became a father. But for a few years that was a true community experience.

 

[Derideo_Te]

My parents are nature-loving atheists. Same with my brother and sister. As an 8 day old was baptized to appease my Catholic grandfather. I was the first of his 23 grandchildren. From the earliest age I enjoyed going to Mass with grandparents. I couldn't understand the litergy, but I remember the bells and singing and feeling cleansed.

I was re-inspired by the Catholic thing at my grandfather's funeral. Actually started going to my local parish. Found out later that my two cousins who died in a plane crash in 1981 were baptized there. Went through 6 months of classes to become confirmed.

I wouldn't say I've abandoned Catholicism. It has a lot of embedded paganism. My Catholic experiences are a plus to what I am now.

I hitchhiked about 5,000 miles total in my 20's. Did quite a bit of rock climbing and alpinism. Did radical forest activism. Lived in a teepee and yurt for 4 years. Backpacked 400+ miles September 2014. All these things have deepened my connection to the heavens and earth.

I'm a Christian who feels even closer to God when I'm in His creation like on a mountain, in the woods, or on the sea. But, Catholicism ISN'T Christian at all. It is as you defined, complete paganism.

As a spiritual atheist the feelings you experience are no different to mine or anyone else's.

The only difference is that you choose to ascribe them to your religion whereas I am more pragmatic and understand that they are normal, measurable trance state of mind that is common in mammals.

Not sure what you mean by spiritual atheism. Is that like Carl Sagan's sense of awe about the rarity and unlikelihood of our existence? Essentially positivism with a touch of amazement.

Certainly you could use the term "sense of awe" to describe spirituality since it is an ill defined term to begin with and that is not helped by having religions imposing their own definitions on the term too.

I prefer a more prosaic and pragmatic approach.

Scientists have measured the brain waves of people who are deeply spiritual and who claim to be able to reach a "spiritual state".

Brain Waves During Meditation - Crystalinks

The brain is an electrochemical organ (machine) using electromagnetic energy to function. Electrical activity emanating from the brain is displayed in the form of brainwaves. They range from the high amplitude, low frequency delta to the low amplitude, high frequency beta. During meditation brain waves alter.

The four categories of these brainwaves:

Beta Waves or beta rhythm, is the term used to designate the frequency range of human brain activity between 12 and 30 Hz (12 to 30 transitions or cycles per second). They awaking awareness, extroversion, concentration, logical thinking, active conversation.


Alpha Waves are electromagnetic oscillations in the frequency range of 8Ð12 Hz arising from synchronous and coherent (in phase / constructive) electrical activity of thalamic pacemaker cells in humans. They are also called Berger's wave in memory of the founder of EEG. They place the brain in states of relaxation times, non-arousal, meditation, hypnosis


Theta Waves is an oscillatory pattern in EEG signals recorded either from inside the brain or from electrodes glued to the scalp. They are found in day dreaming, dreaming, creativity, meditation, paranormal phenomena, out of body experiences, ESP, shamanic journeys.

A person driving on a freeway, who discovers that they can't recall the last five miles, is often in a theta state - induced by the process of freeway driving. This can also occur in the shower or tub or even while shaving or brushing your hair. It is a state where tasks become so automatic that you can mentally disengage from them. The ideation that can take place during the theta state is often free flow and occurs without censorship or guilt. It is typically a very positive mental state.


Delta Waves are high amplitude brain waves with a frequency of oscillation between 0Ð4 hertz. Delta waves, like other brain waves, are recorded with an electroencephalogram (EEG) and are usually associated with the deepest stages of sleep (3 and 4 NREM), also known as slow-wave sleep (SWS), and aid in characterizing the depth of sleep.


Meditation increases activity in the left prefrontal cortex. The changes are stable over time. If you stop meditating for a while, the effect lingers.​

You don't need any religion to reach this state of mind. In fact you don't even need to be human to experience theta waves.

Theta rhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humans and other primates[edit]
In animals, EEG signals are usually recorded using electrodes implanted in the brain; the majority of theta studies have involved electrodes implanted in the hippocampus. In humans, because invasive studies are not ethically permissible except in some neurological patients, by far the largest number of EEG studies have been conducted using electrodes glued to the scalp. The signals picked up by scalp electrodes are comparatively small and diffuse, and arise almost entirely from the cerebral cortex—the hippocampus is too small and too deeply buried to generate recognizable scalp EEG signals. Human EEG recordings show clear theta rhythmicity in some situations, but because of the technical difficulties, it has been difficult to tell whether these signals have any relationship with the hippocampal theta signals recorded from other species.

In contrast to the situation in rats, where long periods of theta oscillations are easily observed using electrodes implanted at many sites, theta has been difficult to pin down in primates, even when intracortical electrodes have been available. Green and Arduini (1954), in their pioneering study of theta rhythms, reported only brief bursts of irregular theta in monkeys. Other investigators have reported similar results, although Stewart and Fox (1991) described a clear 7–9 Hz theta rhythm in the hippocampus of urethane-anesthetized macaques and squirrel monkeys, resembling the type 2 theta observed in urethane-anesthetized rats.

Most of the available information on human hippocampal theta comes from a few small studies of epileptic patients with intracranially implanted electrodes used as part of a treatment plan. In the largest and most systematic of these studies, Cantero et al. (2003) found that oscillations in the 4–7 Hz frequency range could be recorded from both the hippocampus and neocortex. The hippocampal oscillations were associated with REM sleep and the transition from sleep to waking, and came in brief bursts, usually less than a second long. Cortical theta oscillations were observed during the transition from sleep and during quiet wakefulness; however, the authors were unable to find any correlation between hippocampal and cortical theta waves, and concluded that the two processes are probably controlled by independent mechanisms.​

In essence the ability to experience "spirituality" is common to everyone, not just those who hold religious beliefs, because it is a naturally occurring state of mind.

Religion has attempted to use this "spirituality" as "evidence" of the "existence" of their deities. However there is no "evidence" that there is any deity out there. Instead what we have is probably another aspect of the brain that requires further study to determine what purpose it serves.

As an atheist I can reach this mental state quite easily without any religious dogma and yes, I find that it comes over quite strongly when I am closest to large bodies of water. What that means I don't know either.

However when others recount similar experiences that tells me that I am experiencing the same things that they are but I just don't read into it the same things that they do.

Does that help clear this up at all?

 

[TheOldSchool]

where are the druids, wiccans, neopagans, asatruars, gaiaists, and other pagans on board? Surely there must be a few.

Treeshepherd Pogo strollingbones anyone else?

Let's create an ongoing spiritual conversation.

What is the pagan community like? What does it mean to be a pagan? And what benefits do you think come from holding pagan beliefs?

All serious questions. I've always wondered. I knew a girl who was raised Wiccan once but I was too young to really care to ask at the time.

For me it was Redwood Summer (1990) and the years following. I was involved in a massive effort to prevent the redwoods from being liquidated by a carpetbagging corporation from Houston. It was very pagan. Morning yoga rituals, pagan songs, prayers...We camped together, ate together, got thrown in jail together, etc.. I stopped doing all that when I became a father. But for a few years that was a true community experience.

Pretty cool

 

[pillars]

The only difference is that you choose to ascribe them to your religion whereas I am more pragmatic and understand that they are normal, measurable trance state of mind that is common in mammals.

In essence the ability to experience "spirituality" is common to everyone, not just those who hold religious beliefs, because it is a naturally occurring state of mind.

Religion has attempted to use this "spirituality" as "evidence" of the "existence" of their deities. However there is no "evidence" that there is any deity out there. Instead what we have is probably another aspect of the brain that requires further study to determine what purpose it serves.

As an atheist I can reach this mental state quite easily without any religious dogma and yes, I find that it comes over quite strongly when I am closest to large bodies of water. What that means I don't know either.

However when others recount similar experiences that tells me that I am experiencing the same things that they are but I just don't read into it the same things that they do.

Does that help clear this up at all?

For starters, paganism isn't really religion along the lines of the "religions of the book"
(Christianity, Islam, Judaism). It's experiential. It's tapping directly into those spiritual feelings and experiences. I don't believe in a deity in the same way that Christians do. Einstein's "music of the spheres" is probably closest to what I believe. God is in me, and I am in God. God is in everything, god is in those connections between everything and in the space between. Gods and goddesses are archetypes for something larger that is complex to explain. Gods and goddesses are aspects of the divine and of ourselves, masks that we put on to be able to relate better to that which is difficult to understand.

But when I pray to the goddess, I may actually be praying to my higher better self. It's very meta, and just as legit.

Paganism isn't very religious though, in the sense of having a prescribed dogma and set of beliefs. A spiritual atheist would easily tolerated by a group of pagans, because personally, I would see you as having the same spiritual experiences I do, but just putting a different spin on it. Your own individual spin. And who am I to say that your personal spiritual experiences are less legit than my own?

So, for instance, I tend to use the phases of the moon to guide me in the practice of my beliefs. This weekend, probably, because the moon is waning, I will do a banishing spell to get rid of some baggage that I've become aware that I'm carrying around. Do I worship the moon? Of course not. But I recognize that the moon is a very significant symbol that embodies phases that we also experience in our lives (new moon, waxing crescent, full moon, waning moon) and that I can tap into the power of that symbolism in the practice of my beliefs. Further, if the phases of the moons alter the tides and growth cycles, how can I assume that the moon phases don't also affect me? I mean, we've all heard stories about the emergency room during a full moon.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The only difference is that you choose to ascribe them to your religion whereas I am more pragmatic and understand that they are normal, measurable trance state of mind that is common in mammals.

In essence the ability to experience "spirituality" is common to everyone, not just those who hold religious beliefs, because it is a naturally occurring state of mind.

Religion has attempted to use this "spirituality" as "evidence" of the "existence" of their deities. However there is no "evidence" that there is any deity out there. Instead what we have is probably another aspect of the brain that requires further study to determine what purpose it serves.

As an atheist I can reach this mental state quite easily without any religious dogma and yes, I find that it comes over quite strongly when I am closest to large bodies of water. What that means I don't know either.

However when others recount similar experiences that tells me that I am experiencing the same things that they are but I just don't read into it the same things that they do.

Does that help clear this up at all?

For starters, paganism isn't really religion along the lines of the "religions of the book"
(Christianity, Islam, Judaism). It's experiential. It's tapping into those spiritual feelings and experiences. I don't believe in a deity in the same way that Christians do. Einstein's "music of the spheres" is probably closest to what I believe. God is in me, and I am in God. God is in everything, god is in those connections between everything and in the space between. Gods and goddesses are archetypes for something larger that is complex to explain. Gods and goddesses are aspects of the divine and of ourselves, masks that we put on to be able to relate better to that which is difficult to understand.

But when I pray to the goddess, I may actually be praying to my higher better self. It's very meta, and just as legit.

Paganism isn't very religious though, in the sense of having a prescribed dogma and set of beliefs. A spiritual atheist would easily tolerated by a group of pagans, because personally, I would see you as having the same spiritual experiences I do, but just putting a different spin on it. Your own individual spin. And who am I to say that your personal spiritual experiences are less legit than my own?[/QUOTE]

I don't endorse everything in these links but you will probably find you have a lot in common with them.

5 Ways Atheism Can Be Spiritual

THE CENTER FOR SPIRITUAL ATHEISM

 

[Pogo]

Echoes of druids.

Pythagoras grew up at a time when trade was opening up thru the Black Sea with the shamanic peoples of the north. He took that influence with him to Egypt where he became a priest for many years. He was introduced to that most incredible of all human inventions- beer. There he witnessed the pyramids (the most elemental of geometric shapes). He caught a ride with a caravan to Babylon where he learned from the Magi of astronomy and the music of the spheres. No doubt he smoked some killer balms with the caravans. He hitched back to Syria and caught a ride with the Sea Peoples back to the Apennine Peninsula where he set up a school. The synthesis of all these influences is echoed in his concept of the transmigration of soul.

Long story short, the Pythagoreans were killed and chased off. Their philosophy of the transmigration of soul survived to reach the Celts. Whether any of this is true or not, the druids did hold the same essential beliefs as Pythagoras about the transmigration of soul.

Paganism was never extinguished by Christendom in Northern Europe. Eventually Christians would migrate to the New World. There they came into contact with the shamanic peoples of the Americas. The Great Spirit and all that. More important as a touchstone for the American psyche was the vast American wilderness. It was that which gave rise to Transcendentalism. Fast forward many years and you get to John Muir and Edward Abbey. The druid abides.

I had a Lithuanian girlfriend once. She would proudly boast that her people were the last in Europe to succumb to Christianism.

Being Irish I couldn't argue.

 

[Pogo]

The only difference is that you choose to ascribe them to your religion whereas I am more pragmatic and understand that they are normal, measurable trance state of mind that is common in mammals.

In essence the ability to experience "spirituality" is common to everyone, not just those who hold religious beliefs, because it is a naturally occurring state of mind.

Religion has attempted to use this "spirituality" as "evidence" of the "existence" of their deities. However there is no "evidence" that there is any deity out there. Instead what we have is probably another aspect of the brain that requires further study to determine what purpose it serves.

As an atheist I can reach this mental state quite easily without any religious dogma and yes, I find that it comes over quite strongly when I am closest to large bodies of water. What that means I don't know either.

However when others recount similar experiences that tells me that I am experiencing the same things that they are but I just don't read into it the same things that they do.

Does that help clear this up at all?

For starters, paganism isn't really religion along the lines of the "religions of the book"
(Christianity, Islam, Judaism). It's experiential. It's tapping directly into those spiritual feelings and experiences. I don't believe in a deity in the same way that Christians do. Einstein's "music of the spheres" is probably closest to what I believe. God is in me, and I am in God. God is in everything, god is in those connections between everything and in the space between. Gods and goddesses are archetypes for something larger that is complex to explain. Gods and goddesses are aspects of the divine and of ourselves, masks that we put on to be able to relate better to that which is difficult to understand.

But when I pray to the goddess, I may actually be praying to my higher better self. It's very meta, and just as legit.

Paganism isn't very religious though, in the sense of having a prescribed dogma and set of beliefs. A spiritual atheist would easily tolerated by a group of pagans, because personally, I would see you as having the same spiritual experiences I do, but just putting a different spin on it. Your own individual spin. And who am I to say that your personal spiritual experiences are less legit than my own?

So, for instance, I tend to use the phases of the moon to guide me in the practice of my beliefs. This weekend, probably, because the moon is waning, I will do a banishing spell to get rid of some baggage that I've become aware that I'm carrying around. Do I worship the moon? Of course not. But I recognize that the moon is a very significant symbol that embodies phases that we also experience in our lives (new moon, waxing crescent, full moon, waning moon) and that I can tap into the power of that symbolism in the practice of my beliefs. Further, if the phases of the moons alter the tides and growth cycles, how can I assume that the moon phases don't also affect me? I mean, we've all heard stories about the emergency room during a full moon.

It's already a known fact that births, murders, crimes of passion and general insane behaviour peak at the full moon. That's exactly why we call the latter "lunacy".

And it doesn't escape my notice that this recent severe week-and-a-half rain event, Hurricane Joachin and all that... occurred on either side of the "supermoon"/total eclipse...

 

[pillars]

It's really hard to put some of the stuff that I believe into words, though. Damn.

 

[Moonglow]

Like the orgy rituals?

 

[Treeshepherd]

My parents are nature-loving atheists. Same with my brother and sister. As an 8 day old was baptized to appease my Catholic grandfather. I was the first of his 23 grandchildren. From the earliest age I enjoyed going to Mass with grandparents. I couldn't understand the litergy, but I remember the bells and singing and feeling cleansed.

I was re-inspired by the Catholic thing at my grandfather's funeral. Actually started going to my local parish. Found out later that my two cousins who died in a plane crash in 1981 were baptized there. Went through 6 months of classes to become confirmed.

I wouldn't say I've abandoned Catholicism. It has a lot of embedded paganism. My Catholic experiences are a plus to what I am now.

I hitchhiked about 5,000 miles total in my 20's. Did quite a bit of rock climbing and alpinism. Did radical forest activism. Lived in a teepee and yurt for 4 years. Backpacked 400+ miles September 2014. All these things have deepened my connection to the heavens and earth.

I'm a Christian who feels even closer to God when I'm in His creation like on a mountain, in the woods, or on the sea. But, Catholicism ISN'T Christian at all. It is as you defined, complete paganism.

As a spiritual atheist the feelings you experience are no different to mine or anyone else's.

The only difference is that you choose to ascribe them to your religion whereas I am more pragmatic and understand that they are normal, measurable trance state of mind that is common in mammals.

Not sure what you mean by spiritual atheism. Is that like Carl Sagan's sense of awe about the rarity and unlikelihood of our existence? Essentially positivism with a touch of amazement.

Certainly you could use the term "sense of awe" to describe spirituality since it is an ill defined term to begin with and that is not helped by having religions imposing their own definitions on the term too.

I prefer a more prosaic and pragmatic approach.

Scientists have measured the brain waves of people who are deeply spiritual and who claim to be able to reach a "spiritual state".

Brain Waves During Meditation - Crystalinks

The brain is an electrochemical organ (machine) using electromagnetic energy to function. Electrical activity emanating from the brain is displayed in the form of brainwaves. They range from the high amplitude, low frequency delta to the low amplitude, high frequency beta. During meditation brain waves alter.

The four categories of these brainwaves:

Beta Waves or beta rhythm, is the term used to designate the frequency range of human brain activity between 12 and 30 Hz (12 to 30 transitions or cycles per second). They awaking awareness, extroversion, concentration, logical thinking, active conversation.


Alpha Waves are electromagnetic oscillations in the frequency range of 8Ð12 Hz arising from synchronous and coherent (in phase / constructive) electrical activity of thalamic pacemaker cells in humans. They are also called Berger's wave in memory of the founder of EEG. They place the brain in states of relaxation times, non-arousal, meditation, hypnosis


Theta Waves is an oscillatory pattern in EEG signals recorded either from inside the brain or from electrodes glued to the scalp. They are found in day dreaming, dreaming, creativity, meditation, paranormal phenomena, out of body experiences, ESP, shamanic journeys.

A person driving on a freeway, who discovers that they can't recall the last five miles, is often in a theta state - induced by the process of freeway driving. This can also occur in the shower or tub or even while shaving or brushing your hair. It is a state where tasks become so automatic that you can mentally disengage from them. The ideation that can take place during the theta state is often free flow and occurs without censorship or guilt. It is typically a very positive mental state.


Delta Waves are high amplitude brain waves with a frequency of oscillation between 0Ð4 hertz. Delta waves, like other brain waves, are recorded with an electroencephalogram (EEG) and are usually associated with the deepest stages of sleep (3 and 4 NREM), also known as slow-wave sleep (SWS), and aid in characterizing the depth of sleep.


Meditation increases activity in the left prefrontal cortex. The changes are stable over time. If you stop meditating for a while, the effect lingers.​

You don't need any religion to reach this state of mind. In fact you don't even need to be human to experience theta waves.

Theta rhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humans and other primates[edit]
In animals, EEG signals are usually recorded using electrodes implanted in the brain; the majority of theta studies have involved electrodes implanted in the hippocampus. In humans, because invasive studies are not ethically permissible except in some neurological patients, by far the largest number of EEG studies have been conducted using electrodes glued to the scalp. The signals picked up by scalp electrodes are comparatively small and diffuse, and arise almost entirely from the cerebral cortex—the hippocampus is too small and too deeply buried to generate recognizable scalp EEG signals. Human EEG recordings show clear theta rhythmicity in some situations, but because of the technical difficulties, it has been difficult to tell whether these signals have any relationship with the hippocampal theta signals recorded from other species.

In contrast to the situation in rats, where long periods of theta oscillations are easily observed using electrodes implanted at many sites, theta has been difficult to pin down in primates, even when intracortical electrodes have been available. Green and Arduini (1954), in their pioneering study of theta rhythms, reported only brief bursts of irregular theta in monkeys. Other investigators have reported similar results, although Stewart and Fox (1991) described a clear 7–9 Hz theta rhythm in the hippocampus of urethane-anesthetized macaques and squirrel monkeys, resembling the type 2 theta observed in urethane-anesthetized rats.

Most of the available information on human hippocampal theta comes from a few small studies of epileptic patients with intracranially implanted electrodes used as part of a treatment plan. In the largest and most systematic of these studies, Cantero et al. (2003) found that oscillations in the 4–7 Hz frequency range could be recorded from both the hippocampus and neocortex. The hippocampal oscillations were associated with REM sleep and the transition from sleep to waking, and came in brief bursts, usually less than a second long. Cortical theta oscillations were observed during the transition from sleep and during quiet wakefulness; however, the authors were unable to find any correlation between hippocampal and cortical theta waves, and concluded that the two processes are probably controlled by independent mechanisms.​

In essence the ability to experience "spirituality" is common to everyone, not just those who hold religious beliefs, because it is a naturally occurring state of mind.

Religion has attempted to use this "spirituality" as "evidence" of the "existence" of their deities. However there is no "evidence" that there is any deity out there. Instead what we have is probably another aspect of the brain that requires further study to determine what purpose it serves.

As an atheist I can reach this mental state quite easily without any religious dogma and yes, I find that it comes over quite strongly when I am closest to large bodies of water. What that means I don't know either.

However when others recount similar experiences that tells me that I am experiencing the same things that they are but I just don't read into it the same things that they do.

Does that help clear this up at all?

That's interesting, but like I thought it's purely positivistic. Paganism, certainly classical paganism, would recognize something beyond- for example universal and/or individual Destiny.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Stone Age peoples tend to be more egalitarian, simply because they haven’t developed advanced systems of administration. But, is the doctrine of equality really a tenet of paganism?

We have the Christian example of Jesus ministering to the lowest members of society. Christians teach that even the most wretched among us have eternal value. That was a radical divergence from Roman and Greek way of thinking.

Classical paganism celebrates the hero. In Greek drama, the smallest of lives can be sad, but not tragic (important). It was crucial for all people to participate in rites, to attune themselves with the forces that be, but not because any god was paying attention to a low born street urchin.

The doctrine of equality is neo-pagan, but not necessarily pagan. And while neo-paganism may deemphasize the importance of communal rites, they were essential to classical pagans. That's why the pre-druidic peoples built a frikkin Stonehenge. The rites were the important thing, but not the doctrine.

 

[bodecea]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Stone Age peoples tend to be more egalitarian, simply because they haven’t developed advanced systems of administration. But, is the doctrine of equality really a tenet of paganism?

We have the Christian example of Jesus ministering to the lowest members of society. Christians teach that even the most wretched among us have eternal value. That was a radical divergence from Roman and Greek way of thinking.

Classical paganism celebrates the hero. In Greek drama, the smallest of lives can be sad, but not tragic (important). It was crucial for all people to participate in rites, to attune themselves with the forces that be, but not because any god was paying attention to a low born street urchin.

The doctrine of equality is neo-pagan, but not necessarily pagan. And while neo-paganism may deemphasize the importance of communal rites, they were essential to classical pagans. That's why the pre-druidic peoples built a frikkin Stonehenge. The rites were the important thing, but not the doctrine.

Druidic rites of the Stone age were more about knowledge IMO. Building Stonehenge was a means of passing along the knowledge of the seasons to the next generations.

 

[aaronleland]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

I'm not a Christian. I'm an asshole.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

I'm not a Christian. I'm an asshole.

You seem to be a lost one too. The FZ is in the basement. This forum is probably too highly moderated for your liking.

 

[Pogo]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

I'm not a Christian. I'm an asshole.

You seem to be a lost one too. The FZ is in the basement. This forum is probably too highly moderated for your liking.

Aw, he's OK. Aaron is our rep for Eshu-Eleggua.

>> Eshu is a trickster-god, and plays frequently tempting choices for the purpose of causing maturation. He is a difficult teacher, but a good one. As an example, Eshu was walking down the road one day, wearing a hat that was red on one side and black on the other. Sometime after he departed, the villagers who had seen him began arguing about whether the stranger's hat was black or red. The villagers on one side of the road had only been capable of seeing the black side, and the villagers on the other side had only been capable of seeing the red half. They nearly fought over the argument, until Eshu came back and cleared the mystery, teaching the villagers about how one's perspective can alter a person's perception of reality, and that one can be easily fooled. In other versions of this tale, the two tribes were not stopped short of violence; they actually annihilated each other, and Eshu laughed at the result, saying "Bringing strife is my greatest joy". <<
​

 

[bodecea]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

I'm not a Christian. I'm an asshole.

Well then....carry on.

 

[bodecea]

I hope their faggy robes get caught in a wood chipper.

How very "christian" of you.....it would appear.

I'm not a Christian. I'm an asshole.

You seem to be a lost one too. The FZ is in the basement. This forum is probably too highly moderated for your liking.

Aw, he's OK. Aaron is our rep for Eshu-Eleggua.

>> Eshu is a trickster-god, and plays frequently tempting choices for the purpose of causing maturation. He is a difficult teacher, but a good one. As an example, Eshu was walking down the road one day, wearing a hat that was red on one side and black on the other. Sometime after he departed, the villagers who had seen him began arguing about whether the stranger's hat was black or red. The villagers on one side of the road had only been capable of seeing the black side, and the villagers on the other side had only been capable of seeing the red half. They nearly fought over the argument, until Eshu came back and cleared the mystery, teaching the villagers about how one's perspective can alter a person's perception of reality, and that one can be easily fooled. In other versions of this tale, the two tribes were not stopped short of violence; they actually annihilated each other, and Eshu laughed at the result, saying "Bringing strife is my greatest joy". <<
​

Sounds a little bit like Coyote.