California To Wal-Mart: Enough! No More Taxpayer Subsidized Profits For You

[boedicca]

It's so much better to offer Food Stamps to illegal aliens and to put unemployed people on SS Disability than it is for WalMart workers to get some of their taxes back via food stamps!

 

[PredFan]

Oh, are you his support group?

No. It's just that an ass kicking like that deserves to be recognised.

If anyone's ass got kicked, it wasn't mine. Did you read my reply?

Here it is again:

Jeezus, how the fuck is not making a law the same as making a law?

You didn't answer the key question. the one that shows the whole premise of the OP to be nothing but bull shit.

 

[eflatminor]

As I pointed out to BriPat, they do it in other countries by finding places where pollution and human rights violations are never prosecuted. .

A failing of lawmakers in those countries perhaps, but you haven't addressed the point. You still haven't demonstrated how corporations are able to enact laws that shift costs without government lawmakers. Abiding by another countries laws, however inadequate they might be, is NOT an example of corporations enacting laws to shift costs. Again, corporations don't make laws, governments do.

Care to try again?

In this country, all they have to do is lobby against tariffs

Which requires LAWMAKERS. Geez, thanks for making my point.

Further, the kind of tariffs you're talking about restrict free trade, which artificially keeps prices higher than the market would otherwise dictate. How wonderful for poor people. How typical of a central planner that's just sure he knows what's best for everyone else.

Pass.

Jeezus, how the fuck is not making a law the same as making a law?

Okay, I'll use simple, short words for you. Companies cannot prevent a law from being made anymore than they can force a law to be made. They can request that a law be made or not, just as anyone can. Only government can choose to make a law, or to not make a law.

Thanks once more for making my point.

So, once more, how are corporations able to enact (or prevent) laws that shift costs without government lawmakers?

 

[ClosedCaption]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

So as long as you ignore reality, you are right

 

[eflatminor]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Don't you just hate those crony politicians...the ones that actually pass (or fail to pass) the laws you all are bitching about ?

So, why the ire towards the companies/organizations exercising their right to lobby government and not towards the meddling politicians engaging in cronyism outside of their enumerated powers?

 

[dblack]

... companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Exactly! And that's the problem we need to be addressing. Slapping on ad-hoc fines after that fact, that might or might not punish those actually responsible for the corruption, is moronic.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Don't you just hate those crony politicians...the ones that actually pass (or fail to pass) the laws you all are bitching about ?

So, why the ire towards the companies/organizations exercising their right to lobby government and not towards the meddling politicians engaging in cronyism outside of their enumerated powers?

Why should they be free from scorn? Because you say so?

 

[boedicca]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

So as long as you ignore reality, you are right

I'd save my ire for GE and GM if you're really concerned about companies gaming the system via contributions for Political Favors.

 

[eflatminor]

... companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Exactly! And that's the problem we need to be addressing. Slapping on ad-hoc fines after that fact, that might or might not punish those actually responsible for the corruption, is moronic.

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

So as long as you ignore reality, you are right

I'd save my ire for GE and GM if you're really concerned about companies gaming the system via contributions for Political Favors.

Not enough ire to go around?

 

[ClosedCaption]

... companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Exactly! And that's the problem we need to be addressing. Slapping on ad-hoc fines after that fact, that might or might not punish those actually responsible for the corruption, is moronic.

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

See? This is Eflat for you. He sees the problem, fights against doing anything about the problem then points at the problem he's in favor of as the reason why things are messed up.

Break it, then complain about how it's broken

 

[eflatminor]

Yeah as long as you forget that companies can get laws passed by contributions and political favors.

Don't you just hate those crony politicians...the ones that actually pass (or fail to pass) the laws you all are bitching about ?

So, why the ire towards the companies/organizations exercising their right to lobby government and not towards the meddling politicians engaging in cronyism outside of their enumerated powers?

Why should they be free from scorn? Because you say so?

I have no love for companies that actively engage in cronyism, but at least I understand that when they do so, they're simply advocating for their stakeholders. If you're a hot dog salesman and a politician is willing to pass a law exempting hot dogs from taxes and regulations, I may not like it, but I'd understand your willingness to accept that preferential treatment as it's in your best interest.

So, no, the lobbying companies are not free from scorn, but I'm FAR MORE concerned with the politicians...the ones that ACTUALLY PASS THE CRONY LAWS. They're the ones with the power, they're the ones acting outside their enumerated powers. Further, I can choose to not give my business to the crony hot dog salesman. I have no such choice when it comes to government.

Scorn on the crony businesses. More on the crooked politicians.

 

[eflatminor]

Exactly! And that's the problem we need to be addressing. Slapping on ad-hoc fines after that fact, that might or might not punish those actually responsible for the corruption, is moronic.

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

See? This is Eflat for you. He sees the problem, fights against doing anything about the problem then points at the problem he's in favor of as the reason why things are messed up.

Break it, then complain about how it's broken

So you're capable of an ad hominem attack. Impressive.

Would you like to actually address the point now?

 

[bripat9643]

Exactly! And that's the problem we need to be addressing. Slapping on ad-hoc fines after that fact, that might or might not punish those actually responsible for the corruption, is moronic.

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

See? This is Eflat for you. He sees the problem, fights against doing anything about the problem then points at the problem he's in favor of as the reason why things are messed up.

Break it, then complain about how it's broken

That isn't what he said. what you call "the problem" isn't what he identified as the problem. Lobbying isn't the problem. Scumbag politicians who have the power to dole out favors are the problem. The more revenue the politicians have to play with, the more favors they can dole out. If you want to eliminate their corruption, then eliminate the source: government spending.

 

[dblack]

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Not at all. No.

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

I'm saying that if we can agree that the government handing out special favors to corporations is wrong, we should put an end to it. Laws like the one suggested in the OP are fundamentally unjust because they simply assume that some wrong has been done and then punish everyone in a given class ("employers like Wal-Mart") with no evidence that those being fined have done anything wrong. It classic corporatism, punishing and rewarding people or businesses as groups rather than finding out who is responsible for the wrongdoing and dispensing genuine justice.

 

[eflatminor]

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Not at all. No.

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

I'm saying that if we can agree that the government handing out special favors to corporations is wrong, we should put an end to it.

Agreed. In my opinion, the only way to do that is to ensure government has no ability to even consider handing out favors to business. This is exactly what limiting government to specifically enumerated powers does. When a politician has NO ABILITY to meddle in business at any level, they certainly cannot hand out special favors.

Laws like the one suggested in the OP are fundamentally unjust because they simply assume that some wrong has been done and then punish everyone in a given class ("employers like Wal-Mart") with no evidence that those being fined have done anything wrong. It classic corporatism, punishing and rewarding people or businesses as groups rather than finding out who is responsible for the wrongdoing and dispensing genuine justice.

Agreed.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Are you suggesting an organizations should be prevented from lobbying their government? Gonna outlaw political contributions?

Who exactly is responsible for corruption? The organization that lobbies for a loophole in the law or the politician that happily supports the loophole? I'd argue the former are merely advocating for the interest of their stakeholders, while the latter are engaging in cronyism outside their specifically enumerated powers.

See? This is Eflat for you. He sees the problem, fights against doing anything about the problem then points at the problem he's in favor of as the reason why things are messed up.

Break it, then complain about how it's broken

So you're capable of an ad hominem attack. Impressive.

Would you like to actually address the point now?

It would be ad hominem if it wasn't true.

You act as if cronyism is the fault of one side and not all parties involved. They Lobby, Pols get it, then they provide them with favors.

You blame ONLY the Pols WHILE DEFENDING the right to contribute UNLIMITED amounts of dollars. Let me put it so you can get it. You dislike cronyism, pols provide cronyism to whoever lines their pockets, companies line the pols pockets with "cronyism cards"...those companies investments pay off.

You defend the "cronism cards" given while expecting cronyism to disappear. It's like defending blowing dandelions in your grass then get pissed when a dandelions grows from the seed

 

[Oddball]

See? This is Eflat for you. He sees the problem, fights against doing anything about the problem then points at the problem he's in favor of as the reason why things are messed up.

Break it, then complain about how it's broken

So you're capable of an ad hominem attack. Impressive.

Would you like to actually address the point now?

It would be ad hominem if it wasn't true.

You act as if cronyism is the fault of one side and not all parties involved. They Lobby, Pols get it, then they provide them with favors.

You blame ONLY the Pols WHILE DEFENDING the right to contribute UNLIMITED amounts of dollars. Let me put it so you can get it. You dislike cronyism, pols provide cronyism to whoever lines their pockets, companies line the pols pockets with "cronyism cards"...those companies investments pay off.

You defend the "cronism cards" given while expecting cronyism to disappear. It's like defending blowing dandelions in your grass then get pissed when a dandelions grows from the seed

The cronyism cards wouldn't pay off if the politicians didn't have the power to issue them, fool.

 

[JoeNormal]

A failing of lawmakers in those countries perhaps, but you haven't addressed the point. You still haven't demonstrated how corporations are able to enact laws that shift costs without government lawmakers. Abiding by another countries laws, however inadequate they might be, is NOT an example of corporations enacting laws to shift costs. Again, corporations don't make laws, governments do.

Care to try again?



Which requires LAWMAKERS. Geez, thanks for making my point.

Further, the kind of tariffs you're talking about restrict free trade, which artificially keeps prices higher than the market would otherwise dictate. How wonderful for poor people. How typical of a central planner that's just sure he knows what's best for everyone else.

Pass.

Jeezus, how the fuck is not making a law the same as making a law?

Okay, I'll use simple, short words for you. Companies cannot prevent a law from being made anymore than they can force a law to be made. They can request that a law be made or not, just as anyone can. Only government can choose to make a law, or to not make a law.

Thanks once more for making my point.

So, once more, how are corporations able to enact (or prevent) laws that shift costs without government lawmakers?

If a government neglects to restrict pollution or ensure human rights, there are by implication, no government lawmakers.

You know, in an argument, when you can't follow the concept of linguistic logic, you should realize that you've lost. Of course, you're probably not bright enough to see that either.

 

[Oddball]

If a government neglects to restrict pollution or ensure human rights, there are by implication, no government lawmakers.

You know, in an argument, when you can't follow the concept of linguistic logic, you should realize that you've lost. Of course, you're probably not bright enough to see that either.

Try to chart those sentences and your head will essplode!