Bush denies Iraq war is lost

[Bullypulpit]

The war was won, cleanly and quickly. It is the peace that has been lost, and not by our troops. Responsibility for that fiasco lies squarely with George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, J.Paul Bremmer, Paul Wolfowitz and the other architects of the invasion of Iraq and its aftermath. In short the Bush administration ignored the advice of their military commanders, they failed to send enough troops, they failed to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, they failed to meet the standards laid down by the Geneva Conventions, and other treaties the US is signatory to, for the obligations incumbent upon a belligerent occupying power.

The war was won. Our troops are now caught in the middle of a bitter civil war which our troops can make no significant progress in quelling. The solution is one which the Iraqis must hammer out themselves, and no amount of American military force is going to change this. The Iraq Study Group, headed by Bush family consiglieri James Baker, plainly stated that there is no military solution for Iraq. George W. Bush, and the rest of the chicken-hawks in the administration, steadfastly refuse to hear any voice which contradicts their messianic, manichean vision for Iraq. Even the facts on the ground in Iraq can't scratch the surface of their delusion.

George W. Bush, and his fellow travelers have bought and paid for their places in hell, in full. I pity them.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

I want to issue a friendly challenge. For all who want our troops to come home now. Please tell me the following. Please explain for the short term and long term. Thank You.

#1 what would happen to the iraqi people

#2 what would happen to the middle east

#3 what would happen to us (american)

 

[mattskramer]

I want to issue a friendly challenge. For all who want our troops to come home now. Please tell me the following. Please explain for the short term and long term. Thank You.

#1 what would happen to the iraqi people

They would be responsible for themselves.

#2 what would happen to the middle east

There would continue to be battles and wars as there have always been.

#3 what would happen to us (american)

Many soldiers would come home.
Other soldiers would be utilized elsewhere.
Less money would be wasted on the Iraq war.

Now I have a question:

Under what specific quantifiable conditions can we declare victory in Iraq?
Perhaps when there is no bombing or other attack in a 3-month cycle?

 

[Superlative]

I want to issue a friendly challenge. For all who want our troops to come home now. Please tell me the following. Please explain for the short term and long term. Thank You.

#1 what would happen to the iraqi people

#2 what would happen to the middle east

#3 what would happen to us (american)

#1. They would kill each other until one side wins. Most likely Shiite, especially if we leave, cause the Shiites in Iran would help wipe out the Sunni's.

#2. Once a Shiite majority is reached, the region would be moderately peaceful, unless you count the slaughtering of Sunni's after ratalliatory Suicide bombings by the Sunni's that went into hiding in neighbouring regions.

#3. The US would return after Iraq and Iran regain regional control and unite and wage War against Israel, which would be considered an attack on the US, since Israel holds the largest US military Base in the area..

 

[GeeWhiz]

What Bush should do is wear a uniform, stick an orange down his pants and stand in front of a girl scout troop with a sign behind him that says the "War is Won" and all of the Bushies will post here the prove which is the photo opt of Bush standing in front of the banner which says the "War is Won".

Although the clip will have to be edited when they capture the girls scouts laughing at the orange rolling out of Bush's pant legs and onto the stage. Once the editing is complete it will be iron clad proof to all the Bushies that the war is won. Meanwhile Sunnis blew up 12 Shittes today and 3 US soldiers tasted a dynamite stick courtesy of an insurgent.

 

[mattskramer]

#1. They would kill each other until one side wins. Most likely Shiite, especially if we leave, cause the Shiites in Iran would help wipe out the Sunni's.

If such happens, I don't care.

#2. Once a Shiite majority is reached, the region would be moderately peaceful, unless you count the slaughtering of Sunni's after ratalliatory Suicide bombings by the Sunni's that went into hiding in neighbouring regions.

If such happens, I don't care. It would be better than our staying there indefinitely to keep each group apart.

#3. The US would return after Iraq and Iran regain regional control and unite and wage War against Israel, which would be considered an attack on the US, since Israel holds the largest US military Base in the area..

I doubt that they would unite and wage war against Israel. In the unlikely event that they do wage war, the USA, GB, and our other allies would quickly come to its defense.

 

[Superlative]

I doubt that they would unite and wage war against Israel. In the unlikely event that they do wage war, the USA, GB, and our other allies would quickly come to its defense.

Either way, at the end of it, you have a united people, all extremely religious, and all with a single minded view of the US.

...and guess what, its not a good view.

 

[mattskramer]

Either way, at the end of it, you have a united people, all extremely religious, and all with a single minded view of the US.

...and guess what, its not a good view.

So what is your solution? Continue to stay in Iraq indefinitely – forever fighting violent anti-USA people, taking hits from suicide bombs and car bombs, IED’s, etc. My idea is for us to leave, bring many of our soldiers home, while keeping watch over that region of the world. I think that we can keep them relatively isolated while not throwing our soldiers into the thick of it.

 

[Superlative]

So what is your solution? Continue to stay in Iraq indefinitely – forever fighting violent anti-USA people, taking hits from suicide bombs and car bombs, IED’s, etc. My idea is for us to leave, bring many of our soldiers home, while keeping watch over that region of the world. I think that we can keep them relatively isolated while not throwing our soldiers into the thick of it.

Leaving is not a solution.

How do you suppose the US keep watch over the region?

Fly around and video tape what people are doing?

Keep them isolated?

What, put up a wall around the boarder? not let them drive or fly anywhere?


People in the region hatd the US enough to fly planes into the WTC, you think after 4 years of bombing, and occupying they like us more?

And that if the US leaves they will go on with their lives and forget about what has been done to them?

 

[mattskramer]

Leaving is not a solution.

How do you suppose the US keep watch over the region?

Fly around and video tape what people are doing?

Keep them isolated?

What, put up a wall around the boarder? not let them drive or fly anywhere?

Pretty much. We drove Saddam back when he invaded Kuwait. We created a “no-fly-zone. We would occasionally check up on his nation by flying by it. He would occasionally rattle his saber but that was all.

People in the region hatd the US enough to fly planes into the WTC, you think after 4 years of bombing, and occupying they like us more?

Wrong. Iraq had very very little, if anything, to do with 9-11. Iraq was not an immanent threat to the USA, it is a stretch to say that it had WMD, and it did not have close ties to terrorists.

And that if the US leaves they will go on with their lives and forget about what has been done to them?

They will have to. They will not have a choice. If we remain, will they ever like us? No, but if we leave they will have to travel far to reach us. Neither solution is perfect, but all things considered, I think that it would be better for us to leave. The declared war on Iraq and created a mess of things for the Iraqi’s. It is now time to apologize and bring our people home.

 

[Superlative]

Pretty much. We drove Saddam back when he invaded Kuwait. We created a “no-fly-zone. We would occasionally check up on his nation by flying by it. He would occasionally rattle his saber but that was all.

Wrong. Iraq had very very little, if anything, to do with 9-11. Iraq was not an immanent threat to the USA, it is a stretch to say that it had WMD, and it did not have close ties to terrorists.

They will have to. They will not have a choice. If we remain, will they ever like us? No, but if we leave they will have to travel far to reach us. Neither solution is perfect, but all things considered, I think that it would be better for us to leave. The declared war on Iraq and created a mess of things for the Iraqi’s. It is now time to apologize and bring our people home.

Saddam- That there is the difference, when we occasionally checked up on them, before, they had a ruler, someone in power, with laws and law enforcers to keep people in line.

Those things arent fully in place yet.

And I know Iraq had very little to do with 911, if anything.

You are not absorbing what im saying.

I want the US out of Iraq as much as you.

But they cannot leave.

It is too much of a mess, and you have to understand that Iraq may be able to stand on their own one day, but not yet, and yes it is Americas problem, and America will not apologize for it.

But the US has to take responsibility for it.

You want the US to leave, but what happens then? what about the Iraqi people? they wont just start fresh

What about all the american Contractors over there building? You think they will be safe without US troops?

What about 700 tanker trucks a day driving oil to the coast to be shipped to the the US? who will guard that?


Basically the US acted like a 12 year old with a baseball bat and hit a hornets nest. But failed to notice they were standing in qiuckdry cement.

were stuck.

Its not a war.

and its not something that can be walked away from as easily as you think.

 

[Superlative]

Group claims US soldier killings

A group linked to al-Qaeda in Iraq has claimed responsibility for attacks that killed nine US soldiers in the eastern province of Diyala.

The Islamic State in Iraq said: "Two knights from the Islamic State in Iraq ... driving two booby-trapped trucks hit the heart of the crusader American headquarters in the region of Diyala."

In the group's web-statement, they claimed 40 US soldiers had been killed in a double suicide attack, but only nine US soldiers were confirmed dead on Monday and 20 others were wounded at the military outpost near Baquba, the capital of Diyala province.

Diyala province has emerged as one of the most violent parts of Iraq after al-Qaeda fighters were pushed out of western Iraq and Baghdad by US and Iraqi forces.

Lieutenant-Colonel Christopher Garver, a US military spokesman, said: "We have seen a lot of recent attacks up in Diyala."

The attack on Monday was the bloodiest since December 1, 2005, when 10 US marines were killed and 11 wounded by a roadside bomb on the outskirts of the town of Falluja.

New attacks

Tens of thousands of extra US and Iraqi troops have been deployed in Baghdad since February as part of the security crackdown.

Another US soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in the Diyala town of Muqdadiya on the same day, according to the US military.

In a separate attack on Monday, a suicide car bomber struck a gathering of senior police officials in Baquba, killing 10 policemen, including the city's police chief.

Raad Hameed al-Mula Jowad al-Tamimi, Diyala's governor, said: "This will not deter the work of the honourable and dedicated to bring about security, peace and prosperity."

Surge in bombings

The US plan to send 30,000 additional troops has reduced the number of sectarian murders in the capital, but there has been a surge in car bombings inside and outside Baghdad.

Ryan Crocker, the US ambassador to Iraq, in his first news conference since arriving in Baghdad, said he had been in discussions with the Iraqi government and US officials on how to "take apart" the car bomb cells which have defied the crackdown.

A wave of up to 15 explosions resounded in Baghdad before dawn on Tuesday, apparently coming from the city's outskirts.

Two more car bombs also exploded on Tuesday in a Baghdad car park outside the Iranian embassy and several Iraqi government buildings.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5C825D38-CBBB-433A-ADFC-7A511A9ECC52.htm

 

[Vintij]

The US must leave. Nobody wants us there, not even iraq. Our forced transitional democracy will never work, they want theocracy but with so many different forms of religion, that would be impossible. The only outcome would be to split up iraq into different religious nations and set up a republic theocracy like Iran. No more unified Iraq, only branches of Iraq, all branches get equal amounts of oil profit to rebuild. If one wages war against the other, the UN will impose sanctions.

I really wish Dick Cheney would shut the fuck up. He attacks Harry Reid and the senate for not funding the troops and undercutting them. Dick Cheney has never even been in the army or enlisted, he has no military experience aside from shooting his advisors in the face with a shotgun. He is nobody to be telling anyone how the troops feel. Besides, the funding is on its way to the president, if he signs it....the money will not only go to the troops, but also to the veterans hospitals and to the wounded and mentally unstable vets from iraq. By definition, thats called funding.

 

[Superlative]

The US must leave. Nobody wants us there, not even iraq. Our forced transitional democracy will never work, they want theocracy but with so many different forms of religion, that would be impossible. The only outcome would be to split up iraq into different religious nations and set up a republic theocracy like Iran. No more unified Iraq, only branches of Iraq, all branches get equal amounts of oil profit to rebuild. If one wages war against the other, the UN will impose sanctions.

I really wish Dick Cheney would shut the fuck up. He attacks Harry Reid and the senate for not funding the troops and undercutting them. Dick Cheney has never even been in the army or enlisted, he has no military experience aside from shooting his advisors in the face with a shotgun. He is nobody to be telling anyone how the troops feel. Besides, the funding is on its way to the president, if he signs it....the money will not only go to the troops, but also to the veterans hospitals and to the wounded and mentally unstable vets from iraq. By definition, thats called funding.

I just wish they would choose their words more carefully when they talk to the media.

Reid should NOt say the war is lost, he shouldnt even be calling it a war, it just gives the Conservatives ammunition to call him treasonous.

He should be saying the Occupation is failing, and showing very little signs of progress, and asking Bush to show proof not ask for patience.

 

[Diuretic]

I just wish they would choose their words more carefully when they talk to the media.

Reid should NOt say the war is lost, he shouldnt even be calling it a war, it just gives the Conservatives ammunition to call him treasonous.

He should be saying the Occupation is failing, and showing very little signs of progress, and asking Bush to show proof not ask for patience.

Yes sir!

 

[GeeWhiz]

The title of this thread is 'Bush denies Iraq war is lost'. What Bush doesn't understand is that winning isn't about how many people you kill; winning is also about Hearts and Minds and it is the war to win Hearts and Minds that we lost in Iraq.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=22350&Cr=iraq&Cr1=

25 April 2007 – Large-scale indiscriminate killings and targeted assassinations continue to impede efforts to bring lasting stability and security to Iraq, according to the latest United Nations human rights report released today on the strife-torn country, where causalities continue to climb despite recent efforts to stem in the bloodshed.

Sending troops over there isn't going to convince the three tribes to unite as Iraqi Nationalists.

While the previous nine human rights reports issued contained statistics on killings, UNAMI regrets that authorities did not allow UNAMI access to the Ministry of Health’s mortality figures for this period.

How can we know if the increase in troops is actually working if the authorities will not release the figures to the public?

According to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), more than 730,000 Iraqis have been forced to flee their homes since the al-Askari shrine in Samarra was bombed last February, adding to the approximately 1.2 million others displaced prior to that. Baghdad neighbourhoods have increasingly become split along Shia and Sunni lines, and this trend must be reversed to allow civilians to return to their homes, the Mission says.

The People of the United States wanted a change in plan for Iraq all Bush did was give the People the finger and stubbornly continued with his stay the course failure.