Brexit busted.

[Phoenall]

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

Ah, and we come back to this attack again.

I'll attack the Tory government because I happen to think the NHS is quite a good system. I mean, it costs half what the US system costs, isn't half as bad in any respects, and treats all people, and under Labour it was what people dreamed it could be, and under the Tories it's what it shouldn't be.

I don't like Trump. (I don't like Hillary either). The Republicans are destroying the US.
I happen to think Merkel in Germany is a rather effective leader, even if she's on the right, but right often means different things in different countries.
In Austria I happen to find the FPOe rather repulsive, and the BZOe that existed before in Karten.
In South Africa I happen to find the ANC rather repulsive these days and wish they'd stop being so corrupt.
In China I might be against the authoritarian leadership, but believe that at present it is the best thing for the Chinese people.
In Russia I understand why Putin does so well, I don't particularly like him because he's a Nationalist of the worst kind, but then the Russians don't seem to be able to cope well with other leaders.

I have opinions about many countries. You don't need to know where I'm from, just that I'm rather informed about many different political systems around the world, yet know almost nothing about East Timor's government.

But again, this is about the arguments. I have my slant on things, just like everyone else's. You seem to want to try attacking people to make them shut up, which is rather worrying, but then I tie that in with your support for Brexit and I've formed an opinion of you, which I don't need to state because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'll leave my personal thoughts on you far away from the debate.

Under Labour the working man in the UK could not get any treatment as migrants came first, and that is why we saw queues waiting to be seen while migrants from all over the world were ushered into private rooms and given the best of everything. An ambulance used to ferry a whole family to A&E so that little Abdul could be treated for a splinter in his finger. Now they get told to visit their G.P or take it out themselves.

Strange how you swing your Pom Pom's for Labour yet loathe the ANC when they are the same party, both neo marxists

Er... I don't believe that, in fact I know it not to be true.

Yes, Labour caused problems with mass immigration, I won't deny they were wrong.

However this was the British government doing this. Not the EU government. WHich begs the question of what people think they're going to get different outside of the EU from immigration.

It was at the demands of the EU who said they would not give them the scraps on Europe's plate if they did not sign the treaties. So Labour signed as their commissars in Europe told them to, and one of the deals was to allow all the criminals and wasters into the UK. Now we cant use ATM's because of Eastern European con men skimming. They signed away our rights so that the EU human rights court could force our keeping murderers and rapists.

We will get the right to deport those scum that the ECHR have said we must give freedom to. We will get the right to have every lorry go past an x-ray scanner to check for stowaways. we will get the right to stop welfare fraud by migrants. And we will get the right to decide who can tender for British work by British companies and not be told we must employ unqualified Easter European workers. Finally we will remove the unfair practise of EU hauliers undercutting UK hauliers who have to pay to use the roads by placing a levee on the goods carried and also on the fuel used

 

[Phoenall]

What does "strongest possible controls" mean? Strongest possible controls might mean not letting anyone in or out of the country, then you'd have no problems. However the British people have expectations about what their borders are going to be like.
They like visa free travel to a lot of countries and this requires reciprocal agreements.

But, like I've said again, the problems are easier dealt with than you're saying. I don't think I need to talk about welfare again, do i?

Leaving the EU doesn't necessarily make things better. The welfare system will still be the welfare system, it still won't work, and you don't know if the UK will join Schengen or not anyway.

As for number 2, you say the UK needs stronger borders, but do you think the UK government will do this?

Also, how can the UK borders be strengthened? Just by stopping some EU citizens from being able to enter the UK?

Before the world discovered Islam the Poles were the big bugbear of the far right in Britain. By leaving the EU they hope to kick out all of these people. Obviously making Britain a better place.

The downside is that the EU would kick out 3m British pensioners and we would have to find homes for them and Doctors to deal with their many ailments.

I havent seen any costings on this yet.

So we rid the UK of 10% of its current population that is costing £trillions and get back 0.25% as pensioners on private pensions paying taxes. Would you like to do the costings, and explain how this is so unfair. We would be a lot better of and in the black for the NHS again.

And were have the EU said they will kick out 3 million ex pats, or is this another of your LIES

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

 

[Phoenall]

I'm an Englishman, living in Wales. Do I think I'm living in a foreign land ? NO. Do I doubt my thinking, when I'm surrounded by people (occasionally) talking in a near impenetrable Welsh accent ? Er'm, sometimes ...

But, no. I don't think of Wales, Scotland, etc as 'foreign lands'. Do I think of France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland, etc as 'foreign lands' ... well .. YES .. because ... they ARE ...

... and they think they have a right to legislate for us in the UK, courtesy of being part of the EU !! High time we were shot of such interference in our affairs.

You say the Conservatives don't put British interests first. I disagree ... some Conservatives definitely do .. Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith .. two stellar examples for you of Conservatives who do. There are, of course, other such examples. Though .. Cameron could be argued, through his scaremongering tactics, to be putting the EU before all else,namely, FOREIGN interests .. so maybe you've a point of sorts.

Don't bore me with talk of the Conservatives 'trying to destroy the NHS'. Such claims were made decades ago, yet the NHS not only still exists, but dominates our healthcare. These claims are mere Leftie rot.

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

The south of Wales is far more Anglosized than the north of Wales. Now, I don't know where abouts you live, but I also know that many in Scotland hate the English political system based in London far more than the Welsh (the Welsh with the Assembly but the Scots with the Parliament, for example, shows that the Scots are far more independent.)

The point I'm making again, is, the Scots and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and even some Welsh, might feel the same about Westminster as you do Brussels.

Do you think Boris Johnson is putting the UK first? I think he's putting himself first. With this whole EU campaign, he's gunning for the top job, PM. This is what it's about for him. Ian Duncan Smith, yeah, maybe he's got much more integrity than many other politicians.

However the Tories in general don't, and Cameron's still going to be PM.

The NHS still exists. The Tories aren't trying to destroy the NHS so much that people vote them out. They must remember 1997 and getting their arses handed to them on a plate, and the state the NHS was in. Do you remember the MRSA (I think that's what it was called) problem in hospitals that was as a result of neglect in hospitals for so long.

What the Tories want is a private system like the US. It gives future Tory donors lots of opportunities to make money out of a system that is totally unnecessary. So they're going for the slow disintegration of the NHS, to meet their own needs, make healthcare more expensive, more private, more in line with their own ways of making profit.

This isn't the place here for such a large discussion about this, but I can see it's happening.

A 'slow disintegration' of the NHS, having lasted decades already, with the NHS still one of the largest employers on the planet (!) .... and still ongoing, apparently to take, ahem, 'decades more' ...

Really ... this is classic Leftie stuff, and it does NOT stack up against reality.

Just as the spectre of WWIII breaking out, if the UK leaves the EU, also doesn't.

You've dodged questioning over what your true agenda is. You've definitely avoided accountability over EVEN what your NATIONALITY is. Now .. maybe you do have a right to withhold that information. But you're doing it for a reason - one which possibly disguises the really hostile nature of your anti-Brexit argumentation ? An agenda putting the interests of a power perhaps a rival one, before those of the UK .. ?

If I'm wrong ... I challenge you to prove it !

Decades already? Now, it's been 6 years. You do remember that the Tories haven't been in for decades, don't you? That people elected Labour to save it in 1997?
And education. I know some teachers in the UK, and I know they're far more demoralized now than they were under Labour.

My true agenda? You want my true agenda?

I like using my brain, that's my true agenda.

But then again it doesn't matter. This isn't life or death, you aren't going to change your vote talking to me not matter how right I am. So.... my agenda can't be that much if you're like the only British person I even debate about the EU with. I do know someone who's on the stay campaign though, I don't talk to him and haven't for a long while, but there you go.

You go looking for ghouls and demons and ignore answering the questions and looking at the points.

Six years, currently. Have there been no Conservative Governments before 2010 ?

Margaret Thatcher was accused of wanting to dismantle the NHS, and that was decades ago.

As for education ... I lament the demise of grammar schools. It's a way of saying goodbye to excellence.

... as to your agenda ... you ARE Left wing, you've established that. You remain secretive about your nationality. I am entitled to draw conclusions from that ... and, I do.

Yes, with a massive gap where Labour massively increased funding for education and health, and repaired the health service in 13 years, only to see it go downhill again.

As for my agenda, blah, blah, blah, shut the fuck up this got old already.

When did this happen then as we saw nothing but ward closures, doctor shortages and cronyism in the NHS during Labours 14 years in charge. As for education the levels were so poor in the 1990's that exams were tuned down to keep the pass rates up, and the migrants were given the cream of the schools only to destroy them.

Typical leftist when being shown up as incompetent, resort to personal attacks and anti social behaviour.

 

[Mindful]

Before the world discovered Islam the Poles were the big bugbear of the far right in Britain. By leaving the EU they hope to kick out all of these people. Obviously making Britain a better place.

The downside is that the EU would kick out 3m British pensioners and we would have to find homes for them and Doctors to deal with their many ailments.

I havent seen any costings on this yet.

So we rid the UK of 10% of its current population that is costing £trillions and get back 0.25% as pensioners on private pensions paying taxes. Would you like to do the costings, and explain how this is so unfair. We would be a lot better of and in the black for the NHS again.

And were have the EU said they will kick out 3 million ex pats, or is this another of your LIES

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

I should hope the new Mayor's plan to ban adverts of sexy ladies throughout the London Tube is not an edict from Brussels.

 

[Phoenall]

So we rid the UK of 10% of its current population that is costing £trillions and get back 0.25% as pensioners on private pensions paying taxes. Would you like to do the costings, and explain how this is so unfair. We would be a lot better of and in the black for the NHS again.

And were have the EU said they will kick out 3 million ex pats, or is this another of your LIES

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

I should hope the new Mayor's plan to ban adverts of sexy ladies throughout the London Tube is not an edict from Brussels.

Lets see him try it, and watch as he is kicked out of office for his actions

 

[Drummond]

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

Ah, and we come back to this attack again.

I'll attack the Tory government because I happen to think the NHS is quite a good system. I mean, it costs half what the US system costs, isn't half as bad in any respects, and treats all people, and under Labour it was what people dreamed it could be, and under the Tories it's what it shouldn't be.

I don't like Trump. (I don't like Hillary either). The Republicans are destroying the US.
I happen to think Merkel in Germany is a rather effective leader, even if she's on the right, but right often means different things in different countries.
In Austria I happen to find the FPOe rather repulsive, and the BZOe that existed before in Karten.
In South Africa I happen to find the ANC rather repulsive these days and wish they'd stop being so corrupt.
In China I might be against the authoritarian leadership, but believe that at present it is the best thing for the Chinese people.
In Russia I understand why Putin does so well, I don't particularly like him because he's a Nationalist of the worst kind, but then the Russians don't seem to be able to cope well with other leaders.

I have opinions about many countries. You don't need to know where I'm from, just that I'm rather informed about many different political systems around the world, yet know almost nothing about East Timor's government.

But again, this is about the arguments. I have my slant on things, just like everyone else's. You seem to want to try attacking people to make them shut up, which is rather worrying, but then I tie that in with your support for Brexit and I've formed an opinion of you, which I don't need to state because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'll leave my personal thoughts on you far away from the debate.

I'm trying to find out what's truly behind your anti-Brexit argumentation. To see what agenda is in play, and whose interests are truly being served by it. Which is entirely reasonable of me, considering your determination to argue a path for the UK that will one day see it stripped of sovereignty and autonomy !!

As yet, you've gone so far as to hint at a Left-wing set of biases,one anti-Nationalistic ... so tell me. Is your agenda one of a Globalist, 'One World', Socialist-led world ? Do you perhaps see the expanding and nationality-crushing EU as a stepping-stone to such an ambition ?

If I'm wrong, you can choose to offer information proving me wrong. But will you do so ?

Why are you trying to find this out? So you can attack me?

Why not stick to the arguments? It can't be that hard, even if the arguments are as weak as American piss beer.

The effort made in knowing your nationality, must necessarily translate as a basis for an attack against you ? REALLY ?

That only surely makes sense if your nation is actually a hostile one !! And .. if hostile, that lends itself to the observation that your agenda in pushing the anti-Brexit line may well, indeed, be an intentional effort to work against the UK's interests.

I can easily stick to arguments, as I've also proved. HOWEVER ... the certain knowledge of your representing a hostile nation, if or when this ever becomes definite, established fact, is highly pertinent to why you advance your own.

And how are my arguments weak ?? What's wrong with wanting national autonomy, freedom from being dominated by foreign powers ? What's wrong with wanting to greatly enhance the opportunity of exercising proper border controls ? What's wrong with resisting scaremongering, ITSELF borne of weakness ... the weakness because, as it obviously exists, has anti-Brexit proponents disreputably predicting WWIII and the end of Western political civilisation, obviously out of sheer desperation ???

 

[Drummond]

 

[Drummond]

 

[Drummond]

 

[frigidweirdo]

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

Ah, and we come back to this attack again.

I'll attack the Tory government because I happen to think the NHS is quite a good system. I mean, it costs half what the US system costs, isn't half as bad in any respects, and treats all people, and under Labour it was what people dreamed it could be, and under the Tories it's what it shouldn't be.

I don't like Trump. (I don't like Hillary either). The Republicans are destroying the US.
I happen to think Merkel in Germany is a rather effective leader, even if she's on the right, but right often means different things in different countries.
In Austria I happen to find the FPOe rather repulsive, and the BZOe that existed before in Karten.
In South Africa I happen to find the ANC rather repulsive these days and wish they'd stop being so corrupt.
In China I might be against the authoritarian leadership, but believe that at present it is the best thing for the Chinese people.
In Russia I understand why Putin does so well, I don't particularly like him because he's a Nationalist of the worst kind, but then the Russians don't seem to be able to cope well with other leaders.

I have opinions about many countries. You don't need to know where I'm from, just that I'm rather informed about many different political systems around the world, yet know almost nothing about East Timor's government.

But again, this is about the arguments. I have my slant on things, just like everyone else's. You seem to want to try attacking people to make them shut up, which is rather worrying, but then I tie that in with your support for Brexit and I've formed an opinion of you, which I don't need to state because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'll leave my personal thoughts on you far away from the debate.

Under Labour the working man in the UK could not get any treatment as migrants came first, and that is why we saw queues waiting to be seen while migrants from all over the world were ushered into private rooms and given the best of everything. An ambulance used to ferry a whole family to A&E so that little Abdul could be treated for a splinter in his finger. Now they get told to visit their G.P or take it out themselves.

Strange how you swing your Pom Pom's for Labour yet loathe the ANC when they are the same party, both neo marxists

Er... I don't believe that, in fact I know it not to be true.

Yes, Labour caused problems with mass immigration, I won't deny they were wrong.

However this was the British government doing this. Not the EU government. WHich begs the question of what people think they're going to get different outside of the EU from immigration.

It was at the demands of the EU who said they would not give them the scraps on Europe's plate if they did not sign the treaties. So Labour signed as their commissars in Europe told them to, and one of the deals was to allow all the criminals and wasters into the UK. Now we cant use ATM's because of Eastern European con men skimming. They signed away our rights so that the EU human rights court could force our keeping murderers and rapists.

We will get the right to deport those scum that the ECHR have said we must give freedom to. We will get the right to have every lorry go past an x-ray scanner to check for stowaways. we will get the right to stop welfare fraud by migrants. And we will get the right to decide who can tender for British work by British companies and not be told we must employ unqualified Easter European workers. Finally we will remove the unfair practise of EU hauliers undercutting UK hauliers who have to pay to use the roads by placing a levee on the goods carried and also on the fuel used

And what is to stop future governments doing what the EU wants?

There's all this "we'll get the right to decide", but you've just shown that they had the right to decide and chose to decide the way the EU wanted.

Now you're claiming that not being in the EU it'll all be different.

How?

Why doesn't the UK either try and make a deal with the EU, or charge foreign trucks to use the roads? It's possible, you know.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Before the world discovered Islam the Poles were the big bugbear of the far right in Britain. By leaving the EU they hope to kick out all of these people. Obviously making Britain a better place.

The downside is that the EU would kick out 3m British pensioners and we would have to find homes for them and Doctors to deal with their many ailments.

I havent seen any costings on this yet.

So we rid the UK of 10% of its current population that is costing £trillions and get back 0.25% as pensioners on private pensions paying taxes. Would you like to do the costings, and explain how this is so unfair. We would be a lot better of and in the black for the NHS again.

And were have the EU said they will kick out 3 million ex pats, or is this another of your LIES

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The south of Wales is far more Anglosized than the north of Wales. Now, I don't know where abouts you live, but I also know that many in Scotland hate the English political system based in London far more than the Welsh (the Welsh with the Assembly but the Scots with the Parliament, for example, shows that the Scots are far more independent.)

The point I'm making again, is, the Scots and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and even some Welsh, might feel the same about Westminster as you do Brussels.

Do you think Boris Johnson is putting the UK first? I think he's putting himself first. With this whole EU campaign, he's gunning for the top job, PM. This is what it's about for him. Ian Duncan Smith, yeah, maybe he's got much more integrity than many other politicians.

However the Tories in general don't, and Cameron's still going to be PM.

The NHS still exists. The Tories aren't trying to destroy the NHS so much that people vote them out. They must remember 1997 and getting their arses handed to them on a plate, and the state the NHS was in. Do you remember the MRSA (I think that's what it was called) problem in hospitals that was as a result of neglect in hospitals for so long.

What the Tories want is a private system like the US. It gives future Tory donors lots of opportunities to make money out of a system that is totally unnecessary. So they're going for the slow disintegration of the NHS, to meet their own needs, make healthcare more expensive, more private, more in line with their own ways of making profit.

This isn't the place here for such a large discussion about this, but I can see it's happening.

A 'slow disintegration' of the NHS, having lasted decades already, with the NHS still one of the largest employers on the planet (!) .... and still ongoing, apparently to take, ahem, 'decades more' ...

Really ... this is classic Leftie stuff, and it does NOT stack up against reality.

Just as the spectre of WWIII breaking out, if the UK leaves the EU, also doesn't.

You've dodged questioning over what your true agenda is. You've definitely avoided accountability over EVEN what your NATIONALITY is. Now .. maybe you do have a right to withhold that information. But you're doing it for a reason - one which possibly disguises the really hostile nature of your anti-Brexit argumentation ? An agenda putting the interests of a power perhaps a rival one, before those of the UK .. ?

If I'm wrong ... I challenge you to prove it !

Decades already? Now, it's been 6 years. You do remember that the Tories haven't been in for decades, don't you? That people elected Labour to save it in 1997?
And education. I know some teachers in the UK, and I know they're far more demoralized now than they were under Labour.

My true agenda? You want my true agenda?

I like using my brain, that's my true agenda.

But then again it doesn't matter. This isn't life or death, you aren't going to change your vote talking to me not matter how right I am. So.... my agenda can't be that much if you're like the only British person I even debate about the EU with. I do know someone who's on the stay campaign though, I don't talk to him and haven't for a long while, but there you go.

You go looking for ghouls and demons and ignore answering the questions and looking at the points.

Six years, currently. Have there been no Conservative Governments before 2010 ?

Margaret Thatcher was accused of wanting to dismantle the NHS, and that was decades ago.

As for education ... I lament the demise of grammar schools. It's a way of saying goodbye to excellence.

... as to your agenda ... you ARE Left wing, you've established that. You remain secretive about your nationality. I am entitled to draw conclusions from that ... and, I do.

Yes, with a massive gap where Labour massively increased funding for education and health, and repaired the health service in 13 years, only to see it go downhill again.

As for my agenda, blah, blah, blah, shut the fuck up this got old already.

When did this happen then as we saw nothing but ward closures, doctor shortages and cronyism in the NHS during Labours 14 years in charge. As for education the levels were so poor in the 1990's that exams were tuned down to keep the pass rates up, and the migrants were given the cream of the schools only to destroy them.

Typical leftist when being shown up as incompetent, resort to personal attacks and anti social behaviour.

Satisfaction with the NHS overall

Please, go to this link.

Satisfaction with the NHS.

In 1997 it was at 34% for satisfaction. The lowest it's been since this chart starts.
In 2 years it rose to 46%, then dropped, probably due to MRSA which was as a result of Tory slashing.
This then went down to 38% but then rose every year until 2010, at which point it dropped massively.

I'm not saying Labour was perfect in any way. However they took the ashes of the NHS and they've turned it into a decent healthcare system.

And your argument about the 1990s, well... you do remember the Tories were in for most of the 1990s.

2010 was the FIRST YEAR under Labour where they had enough teachers. Before that they'd been offering trainee teachers 1,000 a month (for certain subjects) to train to become teachers. The 2010/2011 year they reduced this money massively because they had enough.

School workforce in England: November 2014 - Publications - GOV.UK

Click on main tables

Table 1 (excel spreadsheet)

In nursery and primary

In 2010 there were 200,900 totally regular FTE teachers. In 2014 this has gone down to 182,000. Even in 2000 there were more teachers than there were in 2014.

Full time regular teachers, gone down below the 2000 level.

Part time teachers has increased from 2000 but dropped against 2010.

Unqualified teachers has increased against 2000 and 2010 from 1,500 to 3,900 to 4,500

Head teachers have dropped from 10,500 to 8,200 to 7,300


In Maintained Secondary

total teachers has dropped from 198,500 in 2000, 213,900 in 2010 to 82,400 in 2010. Yes, there has been a rise in academies which changes all of this.

However academies are employing a lot more part time teachers, and massive amounts of unqualified teachers

In 2000 there were 2,100 unqualified teachers. In 2010 there were 9,000, in 2014 there were 3,600 in maintained schools and 8,000 in academies.

All in all teachers are leaving the profession, or turning to part time because they're not happy working full time.

 

[frigidweirdo]

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

Ah, and we come back to this attack again.

I'll attack the Tory government because I happen to think the NHS is quite a good system. I mean, it costs half what the US system costs, isn't half as bad in any respects, and treats all people, and under Labour it was what people dreamed it could be, and under the Tories it's what it shouldn't be.

I don't like Trump. (I don't like Hillary either). The Republicans are destroying the US.
I happen to think Merkel in Germany is a rather effective leader, even if she's on the right, but right often means different things in different countries.
In Austria I happen to find the FPOe rather repulsive, and the BZOe that existed before in Karten.
In South Africa I happen to find the ANC rather repulsive these days and wish they'd stop being so corrupt.
In China I might be against the authoritarian leadership, but believe that at present it is the best thing for the Chinese people.
In Russia I understand why Putin does so well, I don't particularly like him because he's a Nationalist of the worst kind, but then the Russians don't seem to be able to cope well with other leaders.

I have opinions about many countries. You don't need to know where I'm from, just that I'm rather informed about many different political systems around the world, yet know almost nothing about East Timor's government.

But again, this is about the arguments. I have my slant on things, just like everyone else's. You seem to want to try attacking people to make them shut up, which is rather worrying, but then I tie that in with your support for Brexit and I've formed an opinion of you, which I don't need to state because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'll leave my personal thoughts on you far away from the debate.

I'm trying to find out what's truly behind your anti-Brexit argumentation. To see what agenda is in play, and whose interests are truly being served by it. Which is entirely reasonable of me, considering your determination to argue a path for the UK that will one day see it stripped of sovereignty and autonomy !!

As yet, you've gone so far as to hint at a Left-wing set of biases,one anti-Nationalistic ... so tell me. Is your agenda one of a Globalist, 'One World', Socialist-led world ? Do you perhaps see the expanding and nationality-crushing EU as a stepping-stone to such an ambition ?

If I'm wrong, you can choose to offer information proving me wrong. But will you do so ?

Why are you trying to find this out? So you can attack me?

Why not stick to the arguments? It can't be that hard, even if the arguments are as weak as American piss beer.

The effort made in knowing your nationality, must necessarily translate as a basis for an attack against you ? REALLY ?

That only surely makes sense if your nation is actually a hostile one !! And .. if hostile, that lends itself to the observation that your agenda in pushing the anti-Brexit line may well, indeed, be an intentional effort to work against the UK's interests.

I can easily stick to arguments, as I've also proved. HOWEVER ... the certain knowledge of your representing a hostile nation, if or when this ever becomes definite, established fact, is highly pertinent to why you advance your own.

And how are my arguments weak ?? What's wrong with wanting national autonomy, freedom from being dominated by foreign powers ? What's wrong with wanting to greatly enhance the opportunity of exercising proper border controls ? What's wrong with resisting scaremongering, ITSELF borne of weakness ... the weakness because, as it obviously exists, has anti-Brexit proponents disreputably predicting WWIII and the end of Western political civilisation, obviously out of sheer desperation ???

Again, you say you can stick to topic, but half your posts to me are off topic.

What's wrong with national autonomy? Nothing. However you have to understand what national autonomy means and put it in its correct context. As I've shown, the Westminster government for many is the same as the Brussels government for you. Being dominated by foreign powers isn't going to go away by leaving the EU. In fact in the EU the UK has a say, outside of the EU, the UK doesn't have a say in this domination.

What's wrong with wanting proper border controls? Nothing, however the UK isn't in the Schengen Agreement. As I've already stated, the number of non-EU citizens coming in is large, this isn't to do with the EU government. You want proper border controls, but leaving the EU doesn't solve the problems that exist in the UK, namely that many people are lining up to get on boats to get into the UK due to the UK's welfare system not working properly, this won't change. Half of those EU citizens who come in are from EU-15 countries, countries many Brits live in. So what will change?

What's wrong with resisting scaremongering? What, apart from the fact that the brexit people are lying out of their asses, offering hope however they feel like? Oh, you'll save this much money. No you won't. Ah, sure you will, I made up the statistics myself.

The biggest problem I have with your arguments is that you haven't shown that things will be better after. You THINK things will be better, you want them to be better, but I just don't see it.

The UK welfare system is broken, the border controls are broken, and these COULD HAVE been fixed at any point in the last 20 or 30 years by the UK government and they haven't been. But all of a sudden leaving the EU will suddenly fix the problems of the UK government, like as if they'll be given a magic wand or something.

They won't.

 

[frigidweirdo]

View attachment 78165

You pay 8.5 billion a year to a club which gives you back most of this money anyway, and you risk losing 100 billion a year from loss of trade, from a falling pound etc (note, this isn't an actual figure, I did do a post on how much the UK would lose if the pound dropped 5% against the Euro but I've forgotten the figures, but it was more than 8/5 billion).

 

[frigidweirdo]

View attachment 78166

If the UK doesn't have the freedom to decide it's future now, it never will.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

So we rid the UK of 10% of its current population that is costing £trillions and get back 0.25% as pensioners on private pensions paying taxes. Would you like to do the costings, and explain how this is so unfair. We would be a lot better of and in the black for the NHS again.

And were have the EU said they will kick out 3 million ex pats, or is this another of your LIES

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

It is blindingly obvious that if the EU wants kettles and toasters to be a certain standard then ours will have to be that standard. Otherwise we wont sell any.
On another point.
I have really enjoyed watching my SIPP being slashed in value over the past week. Gives me a warm feeling that we can have bendy bananas though.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Costing trillions, of which they're paying money. Change the low paid work force and exchange them for old grannies who won't work, and then see plumbers earning a fortune because the UK doesn't have enough, unless of course you want to solve your plumbing problems by sticking a grannie in the cracks.

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

It is blindingly obvious that if the EU wants kettles and toasters to be a certain standard then ours will have to be that standard. Otherwise we wont sell any.
On another point.
I have really enjoyed watching my SIPP being slashed in value over the past week. Gives me a warm feeling that we can have bendy bananas though.

Osbourne's come out and said he'd have to slash the budget and increase taxes if the UK leaves. That should feel good for the foreign tourists.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

How are they paying when they are too old to work, have no skills and don't want to work. Those that do work claim all the welfare they can and send it straight back home. Then there is the education needed to allow them to talk English, and not need translators to answer questions. The cost of treating their medical problems alone has put the NHS on the brink of bankruptcy. I could have made a fortune 10 times over putting right the shoddy and dangerous work done by migrants claiming to be plumbers, same with friends who were joiners, electricians and bricklayers. People go to a migrant plumber and pay them half what the job would cost, and then have to pay twice as much when it is seen to be dangerous. Simple answer is to make the workshy get out and do those jobs or stop their money. After 14 years of Labour pandering to the lazy and feckless we needed something done to sort the problem, and importing more unemployables is not the way.

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

It is blindingly obvious that if the EU wants kettles and toasters to be a certain standard then ours will have to be that standard. Otherwise we wont sell any.
On another point.
I have really enjoyed watching my SIPP being slashed in value over the past week. Gives me a warm feeling that we can have bendy bananas though.

Osbourne's come out and said he'd have to slash the budget and increase taxes if the UK leaves. That should feel good for the foreign tourists.

He should have said it weeks ago.

 

[frigidweirdo]

There's a problem with the welfare system. I've said this a lot recently. People think that leaving the EU will make the UK welfare system better. How? It's the UK govt that makes the welfare system.

It's funny, people keep pointing out reasons why the UK needs to leave the EU, and mostly they point to the incompetence of the UK govt for the reasons for leaving.

I don't get it.

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

It is blindingly obvious that if the EU wants kettles and toasters to be a certain standard then ours will have to be that standard. Otherwise we wont sell any.
On another point.
I have really enjoyed watching my SIPP being slashed in value over the past week. Gives me a warm feeling that we can have bendy bananas though.

Osbourne's come out and said he'd have to slash the budget and increase taxes if the UK leaves. That should feel good for the foreign tourists.

He should have said it weeks ago.

Problem is they've been trying to counter the Brexit people, rather than just state the case simply.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

No it is the EU red tape and rules that make it worse, and they should keep out of out revenue raising if they want their £400 billion or so every year.

The incompetence was due to Labour bending over backwards to get the crumbs left on the plate, instead of demanding the whole pie

What you don't get, and never will, is that the EU has tied this country up in red tape so much that we cant even spit without being fined. All you want is to keep the money from the UK flowing into Brussels and your cushy number getting you richer.

And will this red tape disappear? No, it won't. Many companies will still deal with the EU and the red tape to get into the EU will get worse, as they'll have to deal with what's there now AND with more. Alan Sugar stated that he wants to stay because it's a nightmare trying to deal with this sort of thing.

Okay, incompetence due to Labour, and you want incompetence running the whole show rather than incompetence and incompetence running the show? Does it make a difference all this being out of the EU stuff?

Question. Will the UK government get rid of this red tape if we leave or not? And if yes, prove it.

It is blindingly obvious that if the EU wants kettles and toasters to be a certain standard then ours will have to be that standard. Otherwise we wont sell any.
On another point.
I have really enjoyed watching my SIPP being slashed in value over the past week. Gives me a warm feeling that we can have bendy bananas though.

Osbourne's come out and said he'd have to slash the budget and increase taxes if the UK leaves. That should feel good for the foreign tourists.

He should have said it weeks ago.

Problem is they've been trying to counter the Brexit people, rather than just state the case simply.

They have never busted the brexit cash redistribution either. They would give it away in billionaire tax cuts before spending a penny on public services.