BREAKING: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...

[Shusha]

Sure, the Palestinians can live inside their own international borders.

Right. Sure. But can the Jewish Palestinians and the Arab Palestinians have separate self-determinations within those international borders? If not, why not?

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians are the people who obtained Palestinian citizenship after the Treaty of Lausanne.

The international borders that were finalized with the separation of Transjordan in 1922.

The border checkpoints are controlled by the occupation.

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory. You've just admitted that. Therefore, there is no "occupation". The people who formed the government and are governing that territory ARE the people of the place who had citizenship in 1922 -- the Jewish people.

 

[montelatici]

The Israeli resolution plan endorsed by Netanyahoo is the following:

1. Anyone who is willing and able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations will be able to stay here and live as an individual in the Jewish state.
   
   
2. Anyone who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his national aspirations will receive assistance from us to emigrate to one of the Arab countries.
   

" “The vision of the decision plan is not new”, and that “These are the foundations on which Zionism was erected. We do not assume that there are two narratives here that are equal. There’s one side that’s correct, and another that is undermining the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”

Israeli rightist Smotrich lays out the vision for apartheid


The Israelis have never considered the possibility of a state for non-Jews. I don't understand what the argument is about.

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinians are the people who obtained Palestinian citizenship after the Treaty of Lausanne.

The international borders that were finalized with the separation of Transjordan in 1922.

The border checkpoints are controlled by the occupation.

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory. You've just admitted that. Therefore, there is no "occupation". The people who formed the government and are governing that territory ARE the people of the place who had citizenship in 1922 -- the Jewish people.

There are people that practice Judaism and people that practice Christianity and other religions. Judaism is a religion. Stop this Nazi race nonsense. The Nazis were wrong in considering the Jews a separate people, as you are.

 

[Shusha]

The Israeli resolution plan endorsed by Netanyahoo is the following:

1. Anyone who is willing and able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations will be able to stay here and live as an individual in the Jewish state.
   
   
2. Anyone who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his national aspirations will receive assistance from us to emigrate to one of the Arab countries.

" “The vision of the decision plan is not new”, and that “These are the foundations on which Zionism was erected. We do not assume that there are two narratives here that are equal. There’s one side that’s correct, and another that is undermining the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”

Israeli rightist Smotrich lays out the vision for apartheid


The Israelis have never considered the possibility of a state for non-Jews. I don't understand what the argument is about.

Seems entirely fair and reasonable to me. Those who remain in the Jewish State agree to relinquish any national claims to that territory and be loyal to the Jewish State. If you don't like that package, the alternate package is that we'll compensate you to move to the Palestinian State.

It would apply equally the other way. Those who remain in the Palestinian State agree to relinquish any national claims to that territory and be loyal to the Arab Palestinian State.

What's the big deal?

 

[Shusha]

There are people that practice Judaism and people that practice Christianity and other religions. Judaism is a religion. Stop this Nazi race nonsense. The Nazis were wrong in considering the Jews a separate people, as you are.

The Jewish people are a specific, distinct, definable, objectively described people of which religion plays only a part.

If the Arab Palestinians are a distinct people deserving of self-determination and self-government then the Jewish people certainly are.

 

[montelatici]

The Israeli resolution plan endorsed by Netanyahoo is the following:

1. Anyone who is willing and able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations will be able to stay here and live as an individual in the Jewish state.
   
   
2. Anyone who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his national aspirations will receive assistance from us to emigrate to one of the Arab countries.

" “The vision of the decision plan is not new”, and that “These are the foundations on which Zionism was erected. We do not assume that there are two narratives here that are equal. There’s one side that’s correct, and another that is undermining the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.”

Israeli rightist Smotrich lays out the vision for apartheid


The Israelis have never considered the possibility of a state for non-Jews. I don't understand what the argument is about.

Seems entirely fair and reasonable to me. Those who remain in the Jewish State agree to relinquish any national claims to that territory and be loyal to the Jewish State. If you don't like that package, the alternate package is that we'll compensate you to move to the Palestinian State.

It would apply equally the other way. Those who remain in the Palestinian State agree to relinquish any national claims to that territory and be loyal to the Arab Palestinian State.

What's the big deal?

The big deal is that the Occupied Territories are considered part of the Jewish state, there is no Palestinian state in the plan. But, can you imagine the U.S. or EU states giving non-Christians similar options.

 

[Shusha]

The big deal is that the Occupied Territories are considered part of the Jewish state, there is no Palestinian state in the plan.

Perhaps. But if the Palestinians want an(other) Arab Palestinian State they need to relinquish claims to the rest of the territory and make plans for the security of Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish people are a specific, distinct, definable, objectively described people of which religion plays only a part.

Indeed, expelling the natives and stealing their land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Palestinians are the people who obtained Palestinian citizenship after the Treaty of Lausanne.

The international borders that were finalized with the separation of Transjordan in 1922.

The border checkpoints are controlled by the occupation.

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory. You've just admitted that. Therefore, there is no "occupation". The people who formed the government and are governing that territory ARE the people of the place who had citizenship in 1922 -- the Jewish people.

the State of Palestine has made no attempt to enter into a PEACE Treaty with either Israel or any adjacent Arab League State.

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

If the Arab Palestinians are a distinct people deserving of self-determination and self-government then the Jewish people certainly are.

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory. You've just admitted that.

I have?

Link?

 

[Shusha]

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory.

Link?

Why do you need a link? You have already admitted that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The State was intended to be a Jewish State which homed both Jews and Arabs, but fulfilled the right of the Jewish people to self-determination...

By whom? Foreigners?

 

[P F Tinmore]

But the Jewish people -- as a people, a collective -- have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory.

Link?

Why do you need a link? You have already admitted that the Jewish people have the right to self-determination and self-governance within that territory.

Why do you need a link?

Because you are always shoveling shit you can't prove.

 

[Shusha]

Post #284, in response to my question, "The Jewish people ALSO have an inalienable right to self-determination. Yes or no?", you responded, and I quote:

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do.

Put together that reads: The Jewish people who have ancestors from there have an inalienable right to self-determination.

I'm not trying to prove "fact" here. I am trying to clarify your opinion. You agree that at least SOME Jews have an inalienable right to self-determination. You SAID so.

So, the next question I am asking you is this: Given that (at least some) Jews have an inalienable right to self-determination and given that (at least some) Arabs who define themselves as uniquely "Palestinian" have an inalienable right to self-determination -- are they permitted to have a self-determination separate from each other?

Not asking which land, or how much land, or where, or when or anything else. I am ONLY asking about the concept. An analogy would be Czechoslovakia. For a time they managed a joint sovereignty. Eventually, they mutually decided that they would best express their self-determination separately and became Slovakia and the Czech Republic. If they can do it, morally and legally -- what prohibits Israel and Arab Palestine from the same?

 

[Shusha]

Because you are always shoveling shit you can't prove.

I prove shit all the time, just because you won't accept actual treaties doesn't make it not factual.

But in this case I am not trying to PROVE anything. I'm asking for your opinion. I'm asking you to define and put a fence around your arguments. But your dancing with the fenceposts like a madman.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Post #284, in response to my question, "The Jewish people ALSO have an inalienable right to self-determination. Yes or no?", you responded, and I quote:

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do.

Put together that reads: The Jewish people who have ancestors from there have an inalienable right to self-determination.

I'm not trying to prove "fact" here. I am trying to clarify your opinion. You agree that at least SOME Jews have an inalienable right to self-determination. You SAID so.

So, the next question I am asking you is this: Given that (at least some) Jews have an inalienable right to self-determination and given that (at least some) Arabs who define themselves as uniquely "Palestinian" have an inalienable right to self-determination -- are they permitted to have a self-determination separate from each other?

Not asking which land, or how much land, or where, or when or anything else. I am ONLY asking about the concept. An analogy would be Czechoslovakia. For a time they managed a joint sovereignty. Eventually, they mutually decided that they would best express their self-determination separately and became Slovakia and the Czech Republic. If they can do it, morally and legally -- what prohibits Israel and Arab Palestine from the same?

and given that (at least some) Arabs who define themselves as uniquely "Palestinian" have an inalienable right to self-determination

All Palestinians have the inalienable right to self determination. This includes the few percent of Palestinians who were Jews.

You keep attempting to throw hundreds of thousands of colonial settlers into that mix.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Because you are always shoveling shit you can't prove.

I prove shit all the time, just because you won't accept actual treaties doesn't make it not factual.

But in this case I am not trying to PROVE anything. I'm asking for your opinion. I'm asking you to define and put a fence around your arguments. But your dancing with the fenceposts like a madman.

I prove shit all the time, just because you won't accept actual treaties doesn't make it not factual.

What treaty gave away some or all of Palestine?

Link?

 

[Shusha]

All Palestinians have the inalienable right to self determination. This includes the few percent of Palestinians who were Jews.

Okay. But do they have that right independent from each other? Can the Jewish people have a separate State for their own self-determination and the Arabs have one for their self-determination?