BREAKING: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...

[RoccoR]

BREAKING: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Do you actually read what you write.

The information I provided match recorded history and the facts on the ground. Can you provide anything showing why Palestine was not included in the NSGT list when clearly it is.

(COMMENT)

This question calls on me to speculate and then draw a conclusion as to the why; for a half-century, the UN 24 Committee experts that did or did not do something.

It is simply enough to know that it is - or - is not based on the authority that maintain the NSTG list.

It would be interesting to know exactly what nation was acting as a Colonial Power. America is still a Colonial Power. But, the UN Security Council had already affirmed [(S/RES/446) (1979)] that the Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulation apply to the conflict. The Geneva Convention does not apply to Colonial Powers; but rather to Occupation Powers

It is also helpful to know that in 1982, the PLO (“sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”) had not yet exercised their right to self-determination. That did not happen until 1988; but by then, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were already under Israeli administration to protect and preserve Israeli Stability and Regional Security from another preemptive military use of force by the Arab League (and terrorist attacks from the Hostile Arab Palestinians) to achieve what the Arab Palestinians could not achieve through peaceful means under the "Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

BREAKING: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Do you actually read what you write.

The information I provided match recorded history and the facts on the ground. Can you provide anything showing why Palestine was not included in the NSGT list when clearly it is.

(COMMENT)

This question calls on me to speculate and then draw a conclusion as to the why; for a half-century, the UN 24 Committee experts that did or did not do something.

It is simply enough to know that it is - or - is not based on the authority that maintain the NSTG list.

It would be interesting to know exactly what nation was acting as a Colonial Power. America is still a Colonial Power. But, the UN Security Council had already affirmed [(S/RES/446) (1979)] that the Geneva Convention and the Hague Regulation apply to the conflict. The Geneva Convention does not apply to Colonial Powers; but rather to Occupation Powers

It is also helpful to know that in 1982, the PLO (“sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”) had not yet exercised their right to self-determination. That did not happen until 1988; but by then, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were already under Israeli administration to protect and preserve Israeli Stability and Regional Security from another preemptive military use of force by the Arab League (and terrorist attacks from the Hostile Arab Palestinians) to achieve what the Arab Palestinians could not achieve through peaceful means under the "Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States."

Most Respectfully,
R

Perhaps it was not until 20 years ago or so that the true face of Israel was becoming apparent. Colonialism was mentioned in the 1982 resolution I posted and is commonly used today.

 

[Shusha]

No it is your assertion that the Jews have exclusive rights.

Wow. You certainly flipped that on its head.

So, to be absolutely clear here, now you are saying that the Jewish people ARE, in fact, a people and DO have rights to self-determination. Yes? Equivalent to the Palestinian people.

The Jewish people and the Palestinian people have rights to self-determination? Answer yes or no. Its a simple question. (My answer is yes).

The next question is whether or not the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination independently of each other? Yes or no? I think this is the thrust of your "exclusive" argument.

Equivalent to the Palestinian people.

Do you believe that throwing people out of their homes and stealing their land is an equivalent right?

I'm asking you what YOU think. What is YOUR opinion?

You clearly believe that the Palestinian people have an inalienable right to self-determination.

The Jewish people ALSO have an inalienable right to self-determination. Yes or no?

Its a simple question. Why do you make it so hard?

 

[P F Tinmore]

No it is your assertion that the Jews have exclusive rights.

Wow. You certainly flipped that on its head.

So, to be absolutely clear here, now you are saying that the Jewish people ARE, in fact, a people and DO have rights to self-determination. Yes? Equivalent to the Palestinian people.

The Jewish people and the Palestinian people have rights to self-determination? Answer yes or no. Its a simple question. (My answer is yes).

The next question is whether or not the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination independently of each other? Yes or no? I think this is the thrust of your "exclusive" argument.

Equivalent to the Palestinian people.

Do you believe that throwing people out of their homes and stealing their land is an equivalent right?

I'm asking you what YOU think. What is YOUR opinion?

You clearly believe that the Palestinian people have an inalienable right to self-determination.

The Jewish people ALSO have an inalienable right to self-determination. Yes or no?

Its a simple question. Why do you make it so hard?

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't. And that is a shared self determination with the others living there.

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't. And that is a shared self determination with the others living there.

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

 

[Challenger]

...But if one fundamentally believes that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination, there is nothing else to call it.

Do Mormons have a "right to self-determination"? Do Amish? Do Baptists? Do Rastafarians? Do Seventh Day Adventists? Do Scientologists? Do the Children of God? Do Aum Shinrikyo?

Religious cults are not people of the place. Other than Zionist myth-history, there is no ethnic connection between the European Jewish colonisers and the land of Palestine. Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jewish people just for being Jewish people. DIslike and opposition to what Jewish Europeans have done to the native population of Palestine is Anti-Zionism. Unfortunately, Zionist Habara has constantly tried to conflate the two with mixed success.

 

[Challenger]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't. And that is a shared self determination with the others living there.

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Why should they? Jewish Palestinians who lived there before the Zionist invasion in the 19th century got on well with their neighbouring Christians and Muslims. The 19th century European Zionist "white supremacist" invaders were the ones that caused the strife and created the problems we see in the region today. I believe a peace is possible if all those expelled by the Zionists are allowed to return to their ancestral homes. A one state solution for all the people in Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for all, is the only way forward. Those on both sides, who can't live togther in such circumstances are free to go live elsewhere.

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't.

The problem is your hypocrisy in that you only apply this standard to the one side. Why do you never speak of Arabs who have or who have not ancestors from there?

You defend the rights of Arabs whose ancestors are not from the place yet deny the rights of Jews. It's a blatant double standard.

 

[Shusha]

...But if one fundamentally believes that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination, there is nothing else to call it.

Do Mormons have a "right to self-determination"? Do Amish? Do Baptists? Do Rastafarians? Do Seventh Day Adventists? Do Scientologists? Do the Children of God? Do Aum Shinrikyo?

Religious cults are not people of the place. Other than Zionist myth-history, there is no ethnic connection between the European Jewish colonisers and the land of Palestine. Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jewish people just for being Jewish people. DIslike and opposition to what Jewish Europeans have done to the native population of Palestine is Anti-Zionism. Unfortunately, Zionist Habara has constantly tried to conflate the two with mixed success.

Your blatant double standards toward the Jewish people reveal your antisemitism.

Calling the Jewish people a 'cult', denying history, creating special definitions for them are all indications of antisemitism.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't.

The problem is your hypocrisy in that you only apply this standard to the one side. Why do you never speak of Arabs who have or who have not ancestors from there?

You defend the rights of Arabs whose ancestors are not from the place yet deny the rights of Jews. It's a blatant double standard.

Those who became Palestinian citizens in 1924 were former Turkish citizens. They had a legal and recognized tie to the land that was ceded to Palestine. This applied to all of the Jews who held that citizenship.

 

[Shusha]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't. And that is a shared self determination with the others living there.

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Why should they? Jewish Palestinians who lived there before the Zionist invasion in the 19th century got on well with their neighbouring Christians and Muslims. The 19th century European Zionist "white supremacist" invaders were the ones that caused the strife and created the problems we see in the region today. I believe a peace is possible if all those expelled by the Zionists are allowed to return to their ancestral homes. A one state solution for all the people in Israel/Palestine, with equal rights for all, is the only way forward. Those on both sides, who can't live togther in such circumstances are free to go live elsewhere.

Jews are white supremists because they want to return to live in their ancestral lands.

Why are Palestinians not then brown supremists because they want to return to live on their ancestral lands?

Surely your double standard is obvious. That is antisemitism.

 

[Challenger]

Jews are white supremists because they want to return to live in their ancestral lands.

Deliberated falsification of my position. Zionists are white supremacists that don't want to "return" according to their mythology, to live in their "ancestral lands"; instead want to take over another people's territory and remove the indigenous population altogether to create a so called "Jewish" only state. That's both racist and supremacist.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish people who have ancestors from there do. The others don't. And that is a shared self determination with the others living there.

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Sure, the Palestinians can live inside their own international borders.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

OH Paul, --- Tricky Tricky

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Sure, the Palestinians can live inside their own international borders.

(COMMENT)

What you think you heard, is not always what was said. In this case, you have to understand that the phrase: "their own international borders" means something different than what you would suspect. You have to ask yourself:

• Who are the Arab Palestinians?
• What international borders do they maintain?
• What border checkpoints do they control?

I think you will find that when people like Paul say "their own international borders" --- they mean the entirety of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine (pre-May 1948). You have to be careful of the hidden inference of the Arab Palestinians.

The State of Palestine (West Bank + Gaza Strip) does not really have uncontested sovereign international borders. The borders were essentially established by default by treaties between the States of Israel, Egypt and Jordan; with no prejudiced against the populations of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the time since President Mahmoud Abbas began signing international conventions, treaties, covenants, protocols and agreements (≈ 41 in all), the State of Palestine has made no attempt to enter into a PEACE Treaty with either Israel or any adjacent Arab League State.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

What you think you heard, is not always what was said. In this case, you have to understand that the phrase: "their own international borders" means something different than what you would suspect. You have to ask yourself:

• Who are the Arab Palestinians?
• What international borders do they maintain?
• What border checkpoints do they control?

The Palestinians are the people who obtained Palestinian citizenship after the Treaty of Lausanne.

The international borders that were finalized with the separation of Transjordan in 1922.

The border checkpoints are controlled by the occupation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

they mean the entirety of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine

There you go with that former mandate propaganda again.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

OH Paul, --- Tricky Tricky

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Sure, the Palestinians can live inside their own international borders.

(COMMENT)

What you think you heard, is not always what was said. In this case, you have to understand that the phrase: "their own international borders" means something different than what you would suspect. You have to ask yourself:

• Who are the Arab Palestinians?
• What international borders do they maintain?
• What border checkpoints do they control?

I think you will find that when people like Paul say "their own international borders" --- they mean the entirety of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine (pre-May 1948). You have to be careful of the hidden inference of the Arab Palestinians.

The State of Palestine (West Bank + Gaza Strip) does not really have uncontested sovereign international borders. The borders were essentially established by default by treaties between the States of Israel, Egypt and Jordan; with no prejudiced against the populations of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the time since President Mahmoud Abbas began signing international conventions, treaties, covenants, protocols and agreements (≈ 41 in all), the State of Palestine has made no attempt to enter into a PEACE Treaty with either Israel or any adjacent Arab League State.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why should they?

Why should the Palestinians negotiate their inalienable rights with Israel?

The Palestinians have no wars or disputes with its neighbors.

 

[Hollie]

RE: The UN concludes that Israel has established an APARTHEID REGIME...
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

OH Paul, --- Tricky Tricky

Yay! Thank you! Okay. So can the Jewish people and the Palestinian people separate? Can they each have self-determination by themselves, independent of the other? Or is that some sort of impossible?

Sure, the Palestinians can live inside their own international borders.

(COMMENT)

What you think you heard, is not always what was said. In this case, you have to understand that the phrase: "their own international borders" means something different than what you would suspect. You have to ask yourself:

• Who are the Arab Palestinians?
• What international borders do they maintain?
• What border checkpoints do they control?

I think you will find that when people like Paul say "their own international borders" --- they mean the entirety of the territory formerly under the Mandate of Palestine (pre-May 1948). You have to be careful of the hidden inference of the Arab Palestinians.

The State of Palestine (West Bank + Gaza Strip) does not really have uncontested sovereign international borders. The borders were essentially established by default by treaties between the States of Israel, Egypt and Jordan; with no prejudiced against the populations of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the time since President Mahmoud Abbas began signing international conventions, treaties, covenants, protocols and agreements (≈ 41 in all), the State of Palestine has made no attempt to enter into a PEACE Treaty with either Israel or any adjacent Arab League State.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why should they?

Why should the Palestinians negotiate their inalienable rights with Israel?

The Palestinians have no wars or disputes with its neighbors.

Except the wars or disputes that the Pal'istanians have with their neighbors; the Egyptians, for instance.

 

[abi]

Jews are white supremists because they want to return to live in their ancestral lands.

Can you explain this, please.

Why are Palestinians not then brown supremists because they want to return to live on their ancestral lands?

What does any of this have to do with supremacy?

 

[Shusha]

Jews are white supremists because they want to return to live in their ancestral lands.

Deliberated falsification of my position. Zionists are white supremacists that don't want to "return" according to their mythology, to live in their "ancestral lands"; instead want to take over another people's territory and remove the indigenous population altogether to create a so called "Jewish" only state. That's both racist and supremacist.

Except none of that is true. The Jewish people did and do want to return and live in their ancestral lands. They saw and see the territory as their ancestral lands and not "other people's territory", but theirs. They believed and believe still that they are the indigenous population. Therefore, that territory is something they are entitled to. The international community at the time agreed with them.

The State was intended to be a Jewish State which homed both Jews and Arabs, but fulfilled the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in exactly the same way that Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq fulfilled the rights of those people to self-determination. (And those States cemented the reality by cleansing themselves of their Jewish populations.)

There is nothing either racist or supremacist about wanting to return to your ancestral lands. The Palestinian people want to return to what they see as their ancestral lands. They want self-determination on those ancestral lands. "From the river to the sea -- Palestine will be free". Why don't you label that as being racist and supremacist?

I'll give you a hint. Its because you apply a different standard to the Jewish people. Which is antisemitic.