Biden and the Party of War has approved clusterbombs in Ukraine, banned by 120 countries.

[Arlette]

This puts allies in a very difficult spot, even the.BBC seem to be critical of this decision, far more balanced while also providing Russian leader talking points. That is quite unusual for BBC. I did read that it appears to be a stop-gap solution as the Ukraine is running out of ammo. It will surely.lead to dead civilians in the future hough.

That's what I read about the subject as well - a temporary stop gap. I do believe that Ukraine is running out of ammo but I don't believe that those cluster bombs are the only thing we can give them to prevent Ukraine from being short on ammo.

 

[BULLDOG]

BS! They are well known to have a very high dud rate per weapon dropped. Some estimates as high as 40 PERCENT of the sub-munitions don't detonate as planned. There is a very good reason for them to have been banned by so many nations.

I agree, and am ambivilant about supplying cluster bombs. However, I can understand the reasoning behind it. Russia has been using cluster bombs in that area, and the entire area will have to be demined anyway. I oppose using them in any areas that haven't already been clusterbombed.

 

[Batcat]

Gotta love the DemoFascists, now they've approved clusterbombs in Ukraine. It is a weapon that is guaranteed to litter the landscape of Ukraine and Russia with little bomblets a.k.a landmines that will be blowing the limbs off of kids for decades to come. What's next Agent Orange? Hey whatever makes money for the US war machine.

"More than 120 countries have joined a convention banning their use as inhumane and indiscriminate, in large part because of high failure rates that litter the landscape with unexploded submunitions that endanger both friendly troops and civilians, often for decades after the end of a conflict."

Biden will figure out some way to get us in an all out nuclear war and I will glow in the dark where I live.

 

[BULLDOG]

Biden will figure out some way to get us in an all out nuclear war and I will glow in the dark where I live.

Make up your mind. You were whining about the light bill a while ago.

 

[odanny]

Reagan is rolling in his grave at the thought that his party would be siding with the godless Russians. Shame!!!

Well, that's true, but there are many on this forum posing as Repubicans and Americans when, in fact, they are Russian trolls.

 

[odanny]

....or a Nuke.

War criminals, that's all they are in this stolen and corrupt Administration!

Speaking of Russian trolls, here is one for ya.

 

[odanny]

Biden is becoming a war criminal.

And another.

 

[luiza]

Putin sucking piece of shit.

The lout still insisting on his contribution toward useful discussion . Such a considered and reasoned observation -- top drawer Lout material .

 

[luiza]

QUOTED FROM MOON OF ALABAMA .APOLOGIES FOR SO MANY FACTS .THESE WILL DOUBTLESS CONFUSE MANY .The decision, likely illegal, was made because the U.S. and its allies have run out of other 155mm munitions:

The move, which will bypass U.S. law prohibiting the production, use or transfer of cluster munitions with a failure rate of more than 1 percent, comes amid concerns about Kyiv’s lagging counteroffensive against entrenched Russian troops and dwindling Western stocks of conventional artillery.

It is accompanied by false statements that Russia has used such ammunition in Ukraine:

It is well documented, by Human Rights Watch and others, that the Ukrainian military has used cluster munitions. There is nothing to support a claim that Russia has done so. The Pentagon has rejected claimed evidence of Russian cluster munition attacks:

Commenting on videos depicting alleged Russian cluster munition use, DOD officials stated during a March 1, 2022 press conference that “we’ve seen the same video that you have but we have not assessed that it is definitive with respect to the use of cluster munitions. So we are not in a position to confirm the use of cluster munitions at this time.” In a similar manner, a DOD official stated during March 3, 2022, press conference that DOD was still unable to confirm Russia’s use of cluster munitions.

Cluster munition are banned by most countries because they often fails to explode on impact and thereby leave a lot of unexploded mines on the ground:

The principal weapon under consideration, an M864 artillery shell first produced in 1987, is fired from the 155mm howitzers the United States and other Western countries have provided Ukraine. In its last publicly available estimate, more than 20 years ago, the Pentagon assessed that artillery shell to have a “dud” rate of 6 percent, meaning that at least four of each of the 72 submunitions each shell carries would remain unexploded across an area of approximately 22,500 square meters — roughly the size of 4½ football fields.

Last year the Congressional Research Service found that the real dud rate is higher than what the Pentagon claims:

There appear to be significant discrepancies among failure rate estimates. Some manufacturers claim a submunition failure rate of 2% to 5%, whereas mine clearance specialists have frequently reported failure rates of 10% to 30%. A number of factors influence submunition reliability. These include delivery technique, age of the submunition, air temperature, landing in soft or muddy ground, getting caught in trees and vegetation, and submunitions being damaged after dispersal, or landing in such a manner that their impact fuzes fail to initiate.

The Pentagon claims that the ammunition it will provide has a lower dud rate. But it never produced data from tests that would support its claims.

By agreeing to provide the munition Biden is circumventing or breaking the law:

There is no waiver provision in the 1 percent limit Congress has placed on cluster munition dud rates, written into Defense Department appropriations for the last seven years. Biden would bypass it and Congress, according to a White House official, drawing down the munitions from existing defense stocks under a rarely used provision of the Foreign Assistance Act, which allows the president to provide aid, regardless of appropriations or arms export restrictions, as long as he determines that it is in the vital U.S. national security interest.

Unfortunately neither Congress nor the courts are likely to intervene.

The cluster ammunition, like the Uranium tank ammunition the U.S. and Britain have sent to Ukraine, will make large parts of the country inhabitable and unusable for agricultural purposes. It will also make attacks and retreats through affected areas difficult for military forces on both sides.

 

[Batcat]

Make up your mind. You were whining about the light bill a while ago.

Good point. I will not have any power after an all out nuclear war.

 

[JGalt]

Reagan is rolling in his grave at the thought that his party would be siding with the godless Russians. Shame!!!

Shut the fuck up, dude. Everybody is just about sick of your accusing everybody of siding with Russians. What kind of jingoistic bullshit is that, anyway? Just because someone disagrees that we should be involved in another stupid war, doesn't mean they're taking one side or the other. I give as few fucks about Russia as I do Ukraine, and the "Russian" bullshit is just so 2016. Who the fuck are you, Hillary Clinton? A little Joe McCarthy wannabe? If you're such a Yankee Fucking Doodle Dandy, why don't you get off your ass and go over there to protect some other country's borders?

 

[Silver Cat]

The problem is that if the Kievan regime use cluster bombs - the Russians will use it, too. And the Russians have more of them. It won't change the balance, but it will increase collateral damage and the number of killed civilians (mostly citizens of Ukraine).

 

[JGalt]

Here's our military genius of a president admitting to our enemies that our stockpiles of artillery shells are getting low. Although this came up for discussion a couple months ago, and USMB Biden-supporters were quick to claim that we were not going to run out of artillery rounds...

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Reagan is rolling in his grave at the thought that his party would be siding with the godless Russians. Shame!!!

Oh you mean like this?

 

[Ringo]

 

[Ringo]

Let me get this straight
The US who invaded Iraq based on a lie, is funding an apartheid State, and illegally occupying Syria is now providing cluster bombs to Ukraine who eliminated opposition Parties, jailed a political opponent and just cancelled elections to save democracy?
Cluster munitions from the US
Depleted uranium shells from the UK
In case you forgot about Iraq, they're reminding us who the real war criminals are.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Reagan is rolling in his grave at the thought that his party would be siding with the godless Russians. Shame!!!

Just asking why these munitions are needed isn't supporting Russia. The British and Europeans are not comfortable.with this decision, its.from their media. There was an article on CBC stating thst this puts allies in a difficult position. Remember, countries chose to ban these munitons. They are inaccurate and dangerous to citizens. They are apparently not as bad as the Russian made ones but still dangerous. It may also express a place of desperation for Ukraine. Europeans should have stepped up with more arms to avoid this. Russia is the aggressor so of course people support Ukraine, this doesn't people would support a nuclear bomb dropped on Russia, does it?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Here is an explanatioon, from CBC:

U.S. decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine could put Canada, others on the spot. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cluster-munitions-explainer-1.6899740​

 

[whitehall]

The DOJ and the Pentagon have been absorbed by the democrat cabal and the Biden administration so the only criticism can come from the media and they have become the willing propaganda arm of the administration. The point is that the Biden administration can get away with anything short of nuclear war and that's is still debatable.

 

[Mushroom]

Then why are they banned?

They are not banned. You seem to completely fail to understand what the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions is.

It is not a "ban", they are not "illegal", they are not "prohibited". Using them is not against the Laws of Land Warfare.

All the convention is is essentially countries that have stated that they themselves will not make, stockpile, or use them.

It is yet another of those worthless feel- good things that the UN is infamous for. Pass some meaningless resolution that actually achieves absolutely nothing.

And as common in these threads, I am seeing a hell of a lot of people now screaming when this administration has decided to send such weapons to Ukraine. However, I also notice that those same individuals have been remarkably silent over the fact that Russia has been using them since the war started and they seem to have no outrage aimed at them for using them in the first place.

TO be honest, this is just another of the self-masturbation threads this place is full of. People screaming and yelling that actually has nothing to do with the topic itself. It is just a way for them to vent their spleens politically in a way that appears to be about the topic.

Oh, and I do not expect many of the nations that signed that non-binding and unenforceable convention to actually uphold it if some other nations starts to use those weapons against them. For 99% of them it is absolutely meaningless to be honest. It is not like Togo, Niue, Fiji, Belize, and the Holy See are any kind of major weapons manufacturers or been at war with anybody in generations.