Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians

[abi]

Why do I keep seeing the denial that peace is possible as it was before zionism?

 

[Indeependent]

Why do I keep seeing the denial that peace is possible as it was before zionism?

Maybe because you see things when you ingest illegal chemicals.
Like Islamic bullshit.

 

[P F Tinmore]

...It draws on autobiographies, diaries and the Hebrew and Arabic press to recreate a lost world where two communities lived alongside each other, cooperated in shared institutions and respected each others’ religious traditions.

Even as the confrontation between two national movements escalated, Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazis used Palestinian-Arabic slang, while in Hebron in 1929 – a watershed moment – hundreds of Orthodox Jews escaped a frenzied massacre by hiding in the homes of their Muslim neighbours. Arab Jaffa’s exotic nightlife remained a magnet for Jews long after modern, emphatically European Tel Aviv sprang up on the sands to the north - and where (unthinkable today) cinemas showed popular Egyptian films. History as written by the Israeli victors...
Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron by Menachem Klein - review

The 'evil muzzies' protected Jews for those who missed it.

Not surprising, Louie, you're hoping to spin Islamic fascism as a benevolent trait.

The fact is, dhimmitude was islamic institutionalized fascism.

The out-group (non-Muslims) is not only marginalized in the Islamic mind, but is actually seen as an inferior category of sub humans who should be killed if they refuse to convert to Islam or to acknowledge its superiority. It's a hyper xenophobia. We all exercise the mental dichotomy of us/them, but most of us here in the democratic West have come to accept that just because people don't conform exactly to our belief systems, does not mean that they should be exempted from our compassion, empathy, and consideration. Here in America, through much struggling over time, we have built a solid, free society out of a vast, eclectic plurality. The fascistic, intolerant dogma of Islam leaves room only for the second-class citizenship of dhimmitude when it comes to kuffar (non-Muslims/infidels). That's what the book says, and the book is not to be questioned.


https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1096&context=faculty_publications

Fiqh allowed dhimmi law to govern "matters of a communal nature such as marriage, divorce, and inheritance."55 Communal courts had jurisdiction of disputes about such matters between dhimmis, though not disputes between dhimmis and Muslims.56 In return for these concessions, dhimmis theoretically agreed to pay a heavy poll tax called the jizya - which the millet-basis collected on the sultan's behalf - and to accept a second-class status.57 For example, dhimmis had to wear identifying clothing, even in bathhouses. 8 They could not serve in the military or hold high public office.59 They could not "ride horses or carry arms."6 They could not build new places of worship, but only repair existing ones, which could not be higher than mosques.61 They could not attract attention during religious ceremonies.62 Although Muslims could convert dhimmis, dhimmis could not attempt to convert Muslims.63 (Fiqh made apostasy from Islam a capital offense, which would have limited conversions in any event).' In general, dhimmis had to adopt an attitude of quiescence and submission. As the Quranic verse suggests,

50. See Michaeu, supra note 48, at 380. 51. See AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 52. See Kamel S. Abu Jaber, The Millet System in the Nineteenth-Century Ottoman Empire, 57 MUSLIM WORLD 212, 215 (1967) (noting that the Greek Patriarch had "the rank of a vizier and ... a guard of Janissaries to attend to him"). 53. VARTAN ARTINIAN, TtE ARMENIAN CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE 1839-1863: A STUDY OF ITS HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT 15 (1988). 54. Id. 55. Kemal (;iqek, Interpreters of the Court in the Ottoman Empire As Seen from the Sharia Court Records of Cyprus, 9 ISLAMIC L. & Soc'Y 1, 2 (2001-2002). For an exhaustive discussion of dhimmis' legal autonomy under classical fiqh, see Edelby, supra note 47, at 53-82. 56. See (iqek, supra note 55, at 1-2. 57. On the collection of taxes, see, for example, Abu Jaber, supra note 52, at 215-16. 58. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5-6. 59. AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 60. Id. 61. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5. 62. Id. at 6; PETERS, supra note 12, at 195. 63. See BERNARD G. WEISS, THE SPIRIT OF ISLAMIC LAW 149 (1998). 64. See id.; Davison, supra note 5, at 845; see also MAYER, supra note 43, at 167 (discussing "traditional notion that apostates are to be executed").

humiliation was central to the dhimma, a fact both sides understood.65 In the Muslim conception, the dhimmis' social inferiority was the price for obstinacy, for their stubborn refusal to acknowledge the superiority of the revelation to Muhammad.66 Indeed, the harshness of the restrictions undoubtedly served to create, from the Muslim perspective, a salutary incentive for dhimmis to convert, as many did, over the course of centuries.67 Inferiority pervaded the legal system as well. For example, in the qadi courts, the testimony of a Christian was not admissible in any suit in which a Muslim was a party.68 The justification was straightforward: How could one trust a person who had refused to accept Islam?69 "'[T]he word of a dishonest Muslim,"' one Hanafi jurist explained, "'is more valuable than that of an honest dhimm. '"'70 The opposite restriction did not exist, however: Muslims could testify against non-Muslims.7

All that and there never were any dhimmis in Palestine.

You have been reading too many of Rocco's posts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why do I keep seeing the denial that peace is possible as it was before zionism?

Because you can't have peace with Zionism.

 

[rylah]

...It draws on autobiographies, diaries and the Hebrew and Arabic press to recreate a lost world where two communities lived alongside each other, cooperated in shared institutions and respected each others’ religious traditions.

Even as the confrontation between two national movements escalated, Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazis used Palestinian-Arabic slang, while in Hebron in 1929 – a watershed moment – hundreds of Orthodox Jews escaped a frenzied massacre by hiding in the homes of their Muslim neighbours. Arab Jaffa’s exotic nightlife remained a magnet for Jews long after modern, emphatically European Tel Aviv sprang up on the sands to the north - and where (unthinkable today) cinemas showed popular Egyptian films. History as written by the Israeli victors...
Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron by Menachem Klein - review

The 'evil muzzies' protected Jews for those who missed it.

Not surprising, Louie, you're hoping to spin Islamic fascism as a benevolent trait.

The fact is, dhimmitude was islamic institutionalized fascism.

The out-group (non-Muslims) is not only marginalized in the Islamic mind, but is actually seen as an inferior category of sub humans who should be killed if they refuse to convert to Islam or to acknowledge its superiority. It's a hyper xenophobia. We all exercise the mental dichotomy of us/them, but most of us here in the democratic West have come to accept that just because people don't conform exactly to our belief systems, does not mean that they should be exempted from our compassion, empathy, and consideration. Here in America, through much struggling over time, we have built a solid, free society out of a vast, eclectic plurality. The fascistic, intolerant dogma of Islam leaves room only for the second-class citizenship of dhimmitude when it comes to kuffar (non-Muslims/infidels). That's what the book says, and the book is not to be questioned.


https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1096&context=faculty_publications

Fiqh allowed dhimmi law to govern "matters of a communal nature such as marriage, divorce, and inheritance."55 Communal courts had jurisdiction of disputes about such matters between dhimmis, though not disputes between dhimmis and Muslims.56 In return for these concessions, dhimmis theoretically agreed to pay a heavy poll tax called the jizya - which the millet-basis collected on the sultan's behalf - and to accept a second-class status.57 For example, dhimmis had to wear identifying clothing, even in bathhouses. 8 They could not serve in the military or hold high public office.59 They could not "ride horses or carry arms."6 They could not build new places of worship, but only repair existing ones, which could not be higher than mosques.61 They could not attract attention during religious ceremonies.62 Although Muslims could convert dhimmis, dhimmis could not attempt to convert Muslims.63 (Fiqh made apostasy from Islam a capital offense, which would have limited conversions in any event).' In general, dhimmis had to adopt an attitude of quiescence and submission. As the Quranic verse suggests,

50. See Michaeu, supra note 48, at 380. 51. See AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 52. See Kamel S. Abu Jaber, The Millet System in the Nineteenth-Century Ottoman Empire, 57 MUSLIM WORLD 212, 215 (1967) (noting that the Greek Patriarch had "the rank of a vizier and ... a guard of Janissaries to attend to him"). 53. VARTAN ARTINIAN, TtE ARMENIAN CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE 1839-1863: A STUDY OF ITS HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT 15 (1988). 54. Id. 55. Kemal (;iqek, Interpreters of the Court in the Ottoman Empire As Seen from the Sharia Court Records of Cyprus, 9 ISLAMIC L. & Soc'Y 1, 2 (2001-2002). For an exhaustive discussion of dhimmis' legal autonomy under classical fiqh, see Edelby, supra note 47, at 53-82. 56. See (iqek, supra note 55, at 1-2. 57. On the collection of taxes, see, for example, Abu Jaber, supra note 52, at 215-16. 58. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5-6. 59. AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 60. Id. 61. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5. 62. Id. at 6; PETERS, supra note 12, at 195. 63. See BERNARD G. WEISS, THE SPIRIT OF ISLAMIC LAW 149 (1998). 64. See id.; Davison, supra note 5, at 845; see also MAYER, supra note 43, at 167 (discussing "traditional notion that apostates are to be executed").

humiliation was central to the dhimma, a fact both sides understood.65 In the Muslim conception, the dhimmis' social inferiority was the price for obstinacy, for their stubborn refusal to acknowledge the superiority of the revelation to Muhammad.66 Indeed, the harshness of the restrictions undoubtedly served to create, from the Muslim perspective, a salutary incentive for dhimmis to convert, as many did, over the course of centuries.67 Inferiority pervaded the legal system as well. For example, in the qadi courts, the testimony of a Christian was not admissible in any suit in which a Muslim was a party.68 The justification was straightforward: How could one trust a person who had refused to accept Islam?69 "'[T]he word of a dishonest Muslim,"' one Hanafi jurist explained, "'is more valuable than that of an honest dhimm. '"'70 The opposite restriction did not exist, however: Muslims could testify against non-Muslims.7

All that and there never were any dhimmis in Palestine.

You have been reading too many of Rocco's posts.

You should look into Ottoman taxation, jizyah was just ONE of the many taxes.
"Special Gifts" to fill the pockets of local Arab governors were a norm, Jews were always in debt to them.
Pilgrims all had to pay for protection from local Arab tribes on the roads and for the right to pray.

Q. The Arab pogroms before Zionism occurred in spite of paying protection...so who can ensure Jews won't end up like that again in Arab Palestine?

 

[abi]

This is the last picture of Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

He was murdered in cold blood by the IDF or the ADF (Apartheid Demolition Forces) depending on your perspective. He was just 12 and was murdered while clutching his father.

This never would have happened before zionism.

 

[Hollie]

This is the last picture of Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

He was murdered in cold blood by the IDF or the ADF (Apartheid Demolition Forces) depending on your perspective. He was just 12 and was murdered while clutching his father.

This never would have happened before zionism.

That’s all very melodramatic, Louie, but as usual, you don’t understand the facts and choose instead to invent scenarios that appeal to your biases and ignorance.

 

[rylah]

This is the last picture of Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

He was murdered in cold blood by the IDF or the ADF (Apartheid Demolition Forces) depending on your perspective. He was just 12 and was murdered while clutching his father.

This never would have happened before zionism.

Outdated pallywood BS:


Before Zionism - Palestinian Jews were murdered and expelled by their Arab neighbors.

 

[Hollie]

Why do I keep seeing the denial that peace is possible as it was before zionism?

Because you can't have peace with Zionism.

Islamics have no interest in peace with The Zionists or even with other Islamics. Wouldn’t that explain why Islamics are slaughtering other Islamics across the islamic Middle East?

Islamics slaughtering other Islamics across Iraq and Syria aren’t screeching about Joooooos. There must be some other reason.

 

[Hollie]

This is the last picture of Muhammad Jamal al-Durrah.

He was murdered in cold blood by the IDF or the ADF (Apartheid Demolition Forces) depending on your perspective. He was just 12 and was murdered while clutching his father.

This never would have happened before zionism.

Outdated pallywood BS:


Before Zionism - Palestinian Jews were murdered and expelled by their Arab neighbors.

It is funny to watch Louie make himself the total buffoon.

 

[teddyearp]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here and this needs to be understood by all of us. I have explained this many times now on different threads, and the zionists pretend that this is not true to further their hate based agenda, and this allows them to pretend behind the lie that they represent world Jewry, that their actions are somehow justified... even moral.

Yup, the parts I emphasized pretty much sums you up doesn't it?

Forgive me for not actually addressing the topic, but with that kind of opening statement, what kind of honest and logical discussion would/should you expect here?

 

[Hollie]

Why do I keep seeing the denial that peace is possible as it was before zionism?

You fail to be educated to the fact that coexistence with Moslems during much of the Ottoman rule was to be a dhimmi. That wasn’t necessarily peaceful for the dhimmi class.