Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians

[abi]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here and this needs to be understood by all of us. I have explained this many times now on different threads, and the zionists pretend that this is not true to further their hate based agenda, and this allows them to pretend behind the lie that they represent world Jewry, that their actions are somehow justified... even moral.

There are multiple sources from those who were there. I purposely chose a Jewish source.

Before the advent of Zionism and Arab nationalism, Jews and Palestinians lived in peace in the holy land. Menachem Klein’s new book maps out an oft-forgotten history of Israel/Palestine, and offers some guidance on how we may go back to that time.

Menachem Klein’s book, Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron, is a depressing one. Originally released in English, the book — which is being published in Hebrew — paints a picture of a shared life between Palestinians and Jews at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries, bringing us face to face with daily life, commerce, education, celebrations, and sadness. It shows that us this kind existence, despite everything we were taught by the Israeli education system, is possible....

Klein debunks the myth according to which the residents of the country before the advent Zionism or the Arab national movement lacked all identity. Instead, he describes a lively and vivacious community with its own traditions and customs, bringing testimonies from Jews, Muslims and foreigners as proof.
Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

 

[abi]

I mean, seriously now, from the above link:

He quotes the memoirs of Ya’akov Elazar from Jerusalem, who remembers how “the Muslim women cooperated respectfully with the customs of the Jewish religion…the Muslim neighbors allowed the Jewish women to pump water necessary before the Sabbath.” Klein also describes how some Muslims even joined their Jewish neighbors in reciting religious prayers. He describes the cheder (a traditional elementary school where the basics of Judaism and the Hebrew language were taught) run by Hacham Gershon in the neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, where Arab parents brought their children so that they would learn how to behave properly. Klein also writes that sexual relations and marriages between Jews and Arabs were not unheard of, even if they were not considered legitimate.

The European foreigners who came here were the ones to form a wedged between the partners to this quasi-utopia. Yeshayahu Peres, who put together the historical-geographical encyclopedia of the Land of Israel, complained that when the Ashkenazi Jews immigrated they brought with them their customs, clothing, and lifestyle, and did not adapt to the cultures of Palestine: “They speak Yiddish and maintain the Jewish street accent of their home countries. They are different from their Sephardic brothers not only in language and appearance but also in their worldview.” Or take Palestinian activist Ghada Karmi, who says: “We knew they were different from ‘our Jews,’ I am talking about the Arab Jews. We saw them as foreigners who came from Europe more than as Jews.”

 

[fncceo]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here

Most of them spread by your posts.

 

[Indeependent]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here and this needs to be understood by all of us. I have explained this many times now on different threads, and the zionists pretend that this is not true to further their hate based agenda, and this allows them to pretend behind the lie that they represent world Jewry, that their actions are somehow justified... even moral.

There are multiple sources from those who were there. I purposely chose a Jewish source.

Before the advent of Zionism and Arab nationalism, Jews and Palestinians lived in peace in the holy land. Menachem Klein’s new book maps out an oft-forgotten history of Israel/Palestine, and offers some guidance on how we may go back to that time.

Menachem Klein’s book, Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron, is a depressing one. Originally released in English, the book — which is being published in Hebrew — paints a picture of a shared life between Palestinians and Jews at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries, bringing us face to face with daily life, commerce, education, celebrations, and sadness. It shows that us this kind existence, despite everything we were taught by the Israeli education system, is possible....

Klein debunks the myth according to which the residents of the country before the advent Zionism or the Arab national movement lacked all identity. Instead, he describes a lively and vivacious community with its own traditions and customs, bringing testimonies from Jews, Muslims and foreigners as proof.
Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

Complete bullshit.
Anyone who isn't Muslim pays a tax to stay alive.

 

[Indeependent]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here and this needs to be understood by all of us. I have explained this many times now on different threads, and the zionists pretend that this is not true to further their hate based agenda, and this allows them to pretend behind the lie that they represent world Jewry, that their actions are somehow justified... even moral.

There are multiple sources from those who were there. I purposely chose a Jewish source.

Before the advent of Zionism and Arab nationalism, Jews and Palestinians lived in peace in the holy land. Menachem Klein’s new book maps out an oft-forgotten history of Israel/Palestine, and offers some guidance on how we may go back to that time.

Menachem Klein’s book, Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron, is a depressing one. Originally released in English, the book — which is being published in Hebrew — paints a picture of a shared life between Palestinians and Jews at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries, bringing us face to face with daily life, commerce, education, celebrations, and sadness. It shows that us this kind existence, despite everything we were taught by the Israeli education system, is possible....

Klein debunks the myth according to which the residents of the country before the advent Zionism or the Arab national movement lacked all identity. Instead, he describes a lively and vivacious community with its own traditions and customs, bringing testimonies from Jews, Muslims and foreigners as proof.
Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

Israeli university lecturer says denied promotion for being 'too leftist'
Menachem Klein...Muslim ass kisser.

 

[Roudy]

Before Zionism, Muslims restricted Jews from entering Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism.

 

[fncceo]

Before Zionism, Muslims restricted Jews from entering Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism.

Makes sense ... the Dome of the Rock is the 432nd most holy site in Islam ... has been since it was discovered in 1967.

 

[rylah]

I mean, seriously now, from the above link:

He quotes the memoirs of Ya’akov Elazar from Jerusalem, who remembers how “the Muslim women cooperated respectfully with the customs of the Jewish religion…the Muslim neighbors allowed the Jewish women to pump water necessary before the Sabbath.” Klein also describes how some Muslims even joined their Jewish neighbors in reciting religious prayers. He describes the cheder (a traditional elementary school where the basics of Judaism and the Hebrew language were taught) run by Hacham Gershon in the neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, where Arab parents brought their children so that they would learn how to behave properly. Klein also writes that sexual relations and marriages between Jews and Arabs were not unheard of, even if they were not considered legitimate.

The European foreigners who came here were the ones to form a wedged between the partners to this quasi-utopia. Yeshayahu Peres, who put together the historical-geographical encyclopedia of the Land of Israel, complained that when the Ashkenazi Jews immigrated they brought with them their customs, clothing, and lifestyle, and did not adapt to the cultures of Palestine: “They speak Yiddish and maintain the Jewish street accent of their home countries. They are different from their Sephardic brothers not only in language and appearance but also in their worldview.” Or take Palestinian activist Ghada Karmi, who says: “We knew they were different from ‘our Jews,’ I am talking about the Arab Jews. We saw them as foreigners who came from Europe more than as Jews.”

More of the same racist BS.

 

[rylah]

There are too many lies to even begin a discussion here and this needs to be understood by all of us. I have explained this many times now on different threads, and the zionists pretend that this is not true to further their hate based agenda, and this allows them to pretend behind the lie that they represent world Jewry, that their actions are somehow justified... even moral.

There are multiple sources from those who were there. I purposely chose a Jewish source.

Before the advent of Zionism and Arab nationalism, Jews and Palestinians lived in peace in the holy land. Menachem Klein’s new book maps out an oft-forgotten history of Israel/Palestine, and offers some guidance on how we may go back to that time.

Menachem Klein’s book, Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron, is a depressing one. Originally released in English, the book — which is being published in Hebrew — paints a picture of a shared life between Palestinians and Jews at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th centuries, bringing us face to face with daily life, commerce, education, celebrations, and sadness. It shows that us this kind existence, despite everything we were taught by the Israeli education system, is possible....

Klein debunks the myth according to which the residents of the country before the advent Zionism or the Arab national movement lacked all identity. Instead, he describes a lively and vivacious community with its own traditions and customs, bringing testimonies from Jews, Muslims and foreigners as proof.
Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

Arab Pogroms in Syria-Palestine against Jews:

1517 Sefad and Hebron
1660 Tiberias
1660 Safed
1834 Hebron
1834 Safed
1838 Safed
1840 Damascus affair

Just to name a few, all happened before any Zionist ever shot a bullet.
The condition of Jews in Syria-Palestine was much worse than in any other Arab country.
The later Arab pogroms against the Jews were the continuation of the same story, it's just that this time Jews decided to STOP paying Arabs for "protection", took arms and stood for themselves.
Arabs didn't expect such a response from a weak minority, they've subjugated for 13 centuries..

 

[abi]

Excerpts from aspeech by Jewish professor, Daniel Schroeter:

Schroeter said that before the 19th century, Jews’ legal status was well defined in the Muslim world. Jews and Christians were generally protected by the state and permitted to practise their faiths in exchange for accepting subordinate status.

However, Jews received significant autonomy. “The idea that Jews lived as second-class citizens makes little sense [in this context], because the idea of citizenship didn’t apply in the pre-modern Islamic world,” Schroeter said, adding, “Islam did see Jews and Christians as inferior, but that didn’t prevent peaceful interactions between Jews and Muslims on a quotidian level.”


Although Jews in Arab countries tended to live in concentrated residential quarters at the time, they weren’t ghettoized. The boundaries were permeable, and Jews could freely enter the cities’ public sections.


Jews sometimes opted to go to Muslim courts instead of Jewish ones, and it wasn’t unusual for Muslims to shop at kosher butchers or drink alcohol in Jewish areas. In the pre-modern Muslim world, Jews and Muslims frequently mingled in the marketplace. Jews owned shops, cafes and bathhouses. In Yemen, for example, Schroeter said Jewish pedlars and artisans were an “inseparable part of the [commercial] landscape until the mid-20th century.”


Schroeter said European expansion brought “possibilities for new kinds of interaction in the public sphere,” but also changed “clearly defined boundaries between [Muslim and Jews], [which usually served] to maintain a peaceful coexistence.”


“Even in the 1940s, as tensions grew over the issue of Palestine, a larger-than-ever Jewish public was being educated in Arabic and participating in the Iraqi and Arabic public sphere,” Schroeter said.
Before 1948 Jews were often “part of the Arab cultural milieu": prof

 

[rylah]

Excerpts from aspeech by Jewish professor, Daniel Schroeter:

Schroeter said that before the 19th century, Jews’ legal status was well defined in the Muslim world. Jews and Christians were generally protected by the state and permitted to practise their faiths in exchange for accepting subordinate status.

However, Jews received significant autonomy. “The idea that Jews lived as second-class citizens makes little sense [in this context], because the idea of citizenship didn’t apply in the pre-modern Islamic world,” Schroeter said, adding, “Islam did see Jews and Christians as inferior, but that didn’t prevent peaceful interactions between Jews and Muslims on a quotidian level.”


Although Jews in Arab countries tended to live in concentrated residential quarters at the time, they weren’t ghettoized. The boundaries were permeable, and Jews could freely enter the cities’ public sections.


Jews sometimes opted to go to Muslim courts instead of Jewish ones, and it wasn’t unusual for Muslims to shop at kosher butchers or drink alcohol in Jewish areas. In the pre-modern Muslim world, Jews and Muslims frequently mingled in the marketplace. Jews owned shops, cafes and bathhouses. In Yemen, for example, Schroeter said Jewish pedlars and artisans were an “inseparable part of the [commercial] landscape until the mid-20th century.”


Schroeter said European expansion brought “possibilities for new kinds of interaction in the public sphere,” but also changed “clearly defined boundaries between [Muslim and Jews], [which usually served] to maintain a peaceful coexistence.”


“Even in the 1940s, as tensions grew over the issue of Palestine, a larger-than-ever Jewish public was being educated in Arabic and participating in the Iraqi and Arabic public sphere,” Schroeter said.
Before 1948 Jews were often “part of the Arab cultural milieu": prof

Well thank You for the lovely "peaceful" pauses in pogroms, letting us live under double tax, and triple in Jerusalem.

 

[rylah]

Written by a Palestinian Jew of Safed about the Arab massacres of 1834:

"Now I have come to announce the large losses and afflictions that have been created in Israel in four countries, ie Jerusalem,and Hebron and the Upper Galilee, namely Safed. And the lower Galilee, namely the city of Tabriya. By the hands of the plunderers and looters that rose in the country. And they come only upon the Jews...
On Sunday, eight days in the month of Sivan, the looters, inhabitants of the villages joined with the inhabitants of the cities. They had weapons of war and shields and fell upon all the Jews and stripped their clothes from men and women. They expelled them naked from the city, and plundered all their property...
The remnants were coerced and raped whether men or women. Tore all the Torah scrolls, and their talit and tefilin and the city was abandoned... This was so for 33 days, so was done in the city of Safed, so was done in other towns."

Periodicals of people of Israel in Eretz Israel - Menachem Mendel ben- Aaaron 1800-1873
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q.Harmony much?

 

[Coyote]

It's easy to take things out of historical context and apply modern standards - but the fact is, Jews DID do better in Muslim countries then they did in Christian countries of the era. It sucked to be a religious minority in many places in the world.

 

[fncceo]

It sucked to be a religious minority in many places in the world.

It does suck to be a religious minority in any host country. No one knows that better than the Jews.

Which is the reason that Israel HAS to exist. That should be obvious to anyone.

 

[Roudy]

Before Zionism, Muslims restricted Jews from entering Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism.

Makes sense ... the Dome of the Rock is the 432nd most holy site in Islam ... has been since it was discovered in 1967.

And it being an Islamic holy site is another hoax and myth perpetrated on Muslims and the rest of the world. Al Aqsa simply means "far away", having nothing to do with Jerusalem. In fact Muhammad made it clear that only Jews are to pray towards Jerusalem the land God promised the Jewish people, Muslims should pray towards Mecca.

 

[rylah]

It's easy to take things out of historical context and apply modern standards - but the fact is, Jews DID do better in Muslim countries then they did in Christian countries for a long time. It sucked to be a religious minority in many places in the world.

Yes, You're 100% correct.
However Palestine was worse than any Arab country, most of the people couldn't carry the financial burden of the protection taxes in addition to all others. They had to gather budgets from all diaspora and it was still not enough with each year.
This is probably how most of the land was taken away from Jews... not counting the invasions and settlements in places like Hebron by Kurdish soldiers and Arabian tribes..

 

[abi]

It does suck to be a religious minority in any host country. No one knows that better than the Jews.

Which is the reason that Israel HAS to exist. That should be obvious to anyone.

Maybe, but it does not have to exist in Palestine and Herzl knew this.

 

[abi]

...It draws on autobiographies, diaries and the Hebrew and Arabic press to recreate a lost world where two communities lived alongside each other, cooperated in shared institutions and respected each others’ religious traditions.

Even as the confrontation between two national movements escalated, Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazis used Palestinian-Arabic slang, while in Hebron in 1929 – a watershed moment – hundreds of Orthodox Jews escaped a frenzied massacre by hiding in the homes of their Muslim neighbours. Arab Jaffa’s exotic nightlife remained a magnet for Jews long after modern, emphatically European Tel Aviv sprang up on the sands to the north - and where (unthinkable today) cinemas showed popular Egyptian films. History as written by the Israeli victors...
Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron by Menachem Klein - review

The 'evil muzzies' protected Jews for those who missed it.

 

[fncceo]

Maybe, but it does not have to exist in Palestine and Herzl knew this.

But, it does exist, and has existed in Palestine for 70 years. It's not going anywhere.

 

[Hollie]

...It draws on autobiographies, diaries and the Hebrew and Arabic press to recreate a lost world where two communities lived alongside each other, cooperated in shared institutions and respected each others’ religious traditions.

Even as the confrontation between two national movements escalated, Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazis used Palestinian-Arabic slang, while in Hebron in 1929 – a watershed moment – hundreds of Orthodox Jews escaped a frenzied massacre by hiding in the homes of their Muslim neighbours. Arab Jaffa’s exotic nightlife remained a magnet for Jews long after modern, emphatically European Tel Aviv sprang up on the sands to the north - and where (unthinkable today) cinemas showed popular Egyptian films. History as written by the Israeli victors...
Lives in Common: Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Hebron by Menachem Klein - review

The 'evil muzzies' protected Jews for those who missed it.

Not surprising, Louie, you're hoping to spin Islamic fascism as a benevolent trait.

The fact is, dhimmitude was islamic institutionalized fascism.

The out-group (non-Muslims) is not only marginalized in the Islamic mind, but is actually seen as an inferior category of sub humans who should be killed if they refuse to convert to Islam or to acknowledge its superiority. It's a hyper xenophobia. We all exercise the mental dichotomy of us/them, but most of us here in the democratic West have come to accept that just because people don't conform exactly to our belief systems, does not mean that they should be exempted from our compassion, empathy, and consideration. Here in America, through much struggling over time, we have built a solid, free society out of a vast, eclectic plurality. The fascistic, intolerant dogma of Islam leaves room only for the second-class citizenship of dhimmitude when it comes to kuffar (non-Muslims/infidels). That's what the book says, and the book is not to be questioned.


https://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1096&context=faculty_publications

Fiqh allowed dhimmi law to govern "matters of a communal nature such as marriage, divorce, and inheritance."55 Communal courts had jurisdiction of disputes about such matters between dhimmis, though not disputes between dhimmis and Muslims.56 In return for these concessions, dhimmis theoretically agreed to pay a heavy poll tax called the jizya - which the millet-basis collected on the sultan's behalf - and to accept a second-class status.57 For example, dhimmis had to wear identifying clothing, even in bathhouses. 8 They could not serve in the military or hold high public office.59 They could not "ride horses or carry arms."6 They could not build new places of worship, but only repair existing ones, which could not be higher than mosques.61 They could not attract attention during religious ceremonies.62 Although Muslims could convert dhimmis, dhimmis could not attempt to convert Muslims.63 (Fiqh made apostasy from Islam a capital offense, which would have limited conversions in any event).' In general, dhimmis had to adopt an attitude of quiescence and submission. As the Quranic verse suggests,

50. See Michaeu, supra note 48, at 380. 51. See AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 52. See Kamel S. Abu Jaber, The Millet System in the Nineteenth-Century Ottoman Empire, 57 MUSLIM WORLD 212, 215 (1967) (noting that the Greek Patriarch had "the rank of a vizier and ... a guard of Janissaries to attend to him"). 53. VARTAN ARTINIAN, TtE ARMENIAN CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE 1839-1863: A STUDY OF ITS HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT 15 (1988). 54. Id. 55. Kemal (;iqek, Interpreters of the Court in the Ottoman Empire As Seen from the Sharia Court Records of Cyprus, 9 ISLAMIC L. & Soc'Y 1, 2 (2001-2002). For an exhaustive discussion of dhimmis' legal autonomy under classical fiqh, see Edelby, supra note 47, at 53-82. 56. See (iqek, supra note 55, at 1-2. 57. On the collection of taxes, see, for example, Abu Jaber, supra note 52, at 215-16. 58. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5-6. 59. AN-NA'IM, supra note 4, at 187. 60. Id. 61. Braude & Lewis, supra note 6, at 5. 62. Id. at 6; PETERS, supra note 12, at 195. 63. See BERNARD G. WEISS, THE SPIRIT OF ISLAMIC LAW 149 (1998). 64. See id.; Davison, supra note 5, at 845; see also MAYER, supra note 43, at 167 (discussing "traditional notion that apostates are to be executed").

humiliation was central to the dhimma, a fact both sides understood.65 In the Muslim conception, the dhimmis' social inferiority was the price for obstinacy, for their stubborn refusal to acknowledge the superiority of the revelation to Muhammad.66 Indeed, the harshness of the restrictions undoubtedly served to create, from the Muslim perspective, a salutary incentive for dhimmis to convert, as many did, over the course of centuries.67 Inferiority pervaded the legal system as well. For example, in the qadi courts, the testimony of a Christian was not admissible in any suit in which a Muslim was a party.68 The justification was straightforward: How could one trust a person who had refused to accept Islam?69 "'[T]he word of a dishonest Muslim,"' one Hanafi jurist explained, "'is more valuable than that of an honest dhimm. '"'70 The opposite restriction did not exist, however: Muslims could testify against non-Muslims.7