Zone1 Before or After

[Blues Man]

That's not what we're trying to do here!

It's not about trying to "prove" it, I was just asking you address and respond to the words, on their own, regardless of who said it.

Why is that so hard for you? You are making everything far more difficult than it is.

How about this. Since you clearly have a bizarre problem with the bible, let's do something different. How about if I say something similar, in my own words, and then you can address what I said, OK? That way we can skip all this wasted time talking about sources.

Here we go....

Creation itself testifies to the existence of God. Things like the DNA, the human mind, the amazing variety, beauty and complexity of creation....do not just put themselves together on their own by dumb luck. So, people look at nature, and intuitively understand that something higher than us exists.

Ok, now, instead of going on and on about the source, and wanting more than one source, can you simply address the point being made? I'm not saying you have to agree, or "prove it", simply address it!




No! Again, I wasn't trying to "prove" God by that one point. I was simply answering YOUR question about whether or not people can believe in God before being exposed to any religion.

I answered your question, and you have yet to even address that point, other than to deflect deflect deflect.



WHAT? What on earth are you talking about?? I never ever ever ever ever ever ever said, thought or implied that a murderer could be a good person.

I don't know how on earth you arrived at that absurd conclusion based on ANYTHING I said. I mean again, it's like you're living in another galaxy when it comes to communication and understanding here.

How about this. Instead of putting words in my mouth, which is not cool at all.... why don't you pinpoint specifically what I said that caused you to come up with that absurd takeaway? Maybe we can reverse engineer how you extrapolated that out of anything I said. Then we can go from there. OK?

The point being made is nothing but the god of the gaps explanation. Just because we can't explain the exact origin of everything then a god must have done it because in our arrogance we can't even conceive that there are things in this universe we may be utterly incapable of understanding.

A human brain and a dog's brain are made up of essentially the same stuff yet my dog will never understand algebra. Why is it so hard to believe that there are things the human brain cannot understand? In all our brilliance we understand only about 5% of the matter and energy in the universe. That's just not enough to state anything about the origin of the universe with 100% accuracy. We may never know because our brains are physically incapable of the thought processes required to understand just like my dog will never understand algebra.

And I mentioned that there are lots of Christians in prisons and you said even a good tree can produce a bad fruit. I take that as an implication that a murder can be considered a 'good" person (tree) who just produced a bad fruit and that's OK with your god

 

[Blues Man]

Perhaps God has his written word right the way he wants it.

But men wrote the bible
Men decided what would be in the bible and what would be left out of the bible

That's why the source material has to be examined.

 

[Blues Man]

Oh believe me I have analyzed it all critically in minute detail at times. And I have been damned for not agreeing with this or that theological belief. I do not criticize the beliefs of others--only their actions when those harm others--but neither do I deny what I myself believe.

You indicate it is annoying to you to hear of a personal relationship with God and that is not an uncommon reaction for those who are not believers. But you know what your relationship is with your parents or spouse or children or girl friend/boy friend or best friends. Would it annoy you if I suggested you had no such relationship? I would never presume to do so.

All I can tell you is I have a personal relationship with God and it is intensely important to me. You do not have to believe in such a relationship or believe in God now for you to have that. But if you invite Him to do so and can allow that to be on His terms and in His time, then you will know.

Where did I use the word annoying?

The statement made was that when you have a personal relationship with this god of the bible then you will have proof of this god's existence.

That makes no sense.

I would have to believe that this god exists before I can have a personal relationship ( whatever that is) in order to get proof he she it exists.

It's circular reasoning.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

So he was already religious. Which is the exact opposite of what I said.

Did I say he was "religious"?

Is Larry David "religious"?

Was Karl Marx "religious"?

 

[buttercup]

and you said even a good tree can produce a bad fruit.

Specific quote, please? I did NOT say that. I said the exact opposite!

 

[Blues Man]

Specific quote, please? I did NOT say that. I said the exact opposite!

You're right

I messed that one up

So then why would your god forgive a murderer ?

 

[buttercup]

You're right

I messed that one up

So then why would your god forgive a murderer ?

Thanks for acknowledging that.

As for your question, the first thing to understand is that ALL people are sinners. With the exception of babies and young children under the age of accountability, we are ALL accountable to God for everything we do in this life.

God saves people who are genuinely repentant and who genuinely put their faith and trust in Him, which involves making the conscious choice to turn away from our previous life and choose to follow Jesus.

No one can 'pull the wool' over God's eyes, so to speak. In other words, if a murderer, thief, adulterer or whatever is not genuinely repentant and doesn't have a genuine change of mind / heart, then empty words don't matter.

Jesus said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” The reason He said that is because no one is "righteous" apart from God. (by righteous I mean people who are always good, all the time, and always obey God.)

So if Jesus only forgave the "good people" then there wouldn't be anyone to forgive. Only babies, small children and animals would be in heaven, because they are the only ones who are innocent.

Did that answer your question?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

So then why would your god forgive a murderer ?

Because he REPENTED and Jesus' SACRIFICE covered the penalty for the man's sin.

If the murderer was not truly repentant then the Sacrifice doesn't cover his sin.

This is why Jesus said, "NO ONE can come to the Father except through me "

 

[Blues Man]

Because he REPENTED and Jesus' SACRIFICE covered the penalty for the man's sin.

If the murderer was not truly repentant then the Sacrifice doesn't cover his sin.

This is why Jesus said, "NO ONE can come to the Father except through me "

I never bought that as anything more than a balm for a person's own conscience.

I can basically do all kids of horrible things then I can just repent

So I ask again what's the sense in listing all those sins in the bible and the punishments for them if they don't matter?

 

[TNHarley]

Pointing out the failings of our ancestors is pure hypocrisy when we are still doing the same. Think about it. Broad-brushing ancient times is about as accurate as broad-brushing modern times. I expected you to get that.

Im pointing out the failings of your god.

 

[TNHarley]

Did I say he was "religious"?

Is Larry David "religious"?

Was Karl Marx "religious"?

You said he was a jew and "converted"
Which would imply he had at least read the book before.
Which is the exact opposite of what I said.

 

[Meriweather]

Im pointing out the failings of your god.

Before getting to know Him? Before getting to know Hebrew and the cultures of Biblical times? Consider the possibility you may have the cart before the horse.

 

[TNHarley]

Before getting to know Him? Before getting to know Hebrew and the cultures of Biblical times? Consider the possibility you may have the cart before the horse.

Their culture was mass murdering babies? Lol
Wow
Keep on trying to justify the genocide of children

 

[Meriweather]

Their culture was mass murdering babies?

You've got them mixed up with today's culture. Except...not even a majority of people today are in lockstep with modern culture today than all people were in ancient times. The Bible presents their story as well.

I get that you believe you know the whole story from taking a verse here and a verse there. I also get that you are entirely satisfied that what you read in a few voices tells you all you need to know. I am merely saying there is more to it. However, I am getting the impression you have already made up your mind and are satisfied with the conclusions you have. Correct?

 

[TNHarley]

You've got them mixed up with today's culture. Except...not even a majority of people today are in lockstep with modern culture today than all people were in ancient times. The Bible presents their story as well.

I get that you believe you know the whole story from taking a verse here and a verse there. I also get that you are entirely satisfied that what you read in a few voices tells you all you need to know. I am merely saying there is more to it. However, I am getting the impression you have already made up your mind and are satisfied with the conclusions you have. Correct?

I have read the entire book, thank you.
"sins of the father" bullcrap doesnt justify the genocide of innocent children. Your ridiculous "culture" malarkey doesnt either.
I remember hearing a sermon over it when I was a kid. The justification for it made me sick. I even talked to my grandmother about it right after we left.
Part of the reason why I stopped believing in him at 12 years old.
Im not an atheist. However, even if he showed himself to me and told me the bible is accurate, I wouldnt worship him because he is a sick POS. I have more morals than your god ever could.

 

[Meriweather]

I have read the entire book, thank you.
"sins of the father" bullcrap doesnt justify the genocide of innocent children. Your ridiculous "culture" malarkey doesnt either.
I remember hearing a sermon over it when I was a kid. The justification for it made me sick. I even talked to my grandmother about it right after we left.

Did you ever study Hebrew or did you ever talk to a rabbi or read rabbinical commentaries? Did you ever read the histories, cultures, and anthropology of those times? Do you remember the layout of different presentations of stories learned in middle school?

Part of the reason why I stopped believing in him at 12 years old.
Im not an atheist. However, even if he showed himself to me and told me the bible is accurate, I wouldnt worship him because he is a sick POS. I have more morals than your god ever could.

Love twelve-year-olds! Today they still have that conviction that they have everything figured out--except maybe math--and they figure they don't need that anyway.

You read the Bible--I get that. Any rabbi will tell you the Bible is to be studied, not read. The next point, the Bible is not a collection of Encyclopedic or scientific facts. It is a collection of stories--all written well after the events occurred. Identify the elements: Folklore, legend, themes, lessons.

Too late now, but I always recommend searching and finding God before reading about Him. Have you ever met someone after reading about them? Sometimes they don't seem like the same person.

 

[Blues Man]

Before getting to know Him? Before getting to know Hebrew and the cultures of Biblical times? Consider the possibility you may have the cart before the horse.

The culture of biblical times was a particularly violent and difficult one from today's standpoint. It was actually very conducive to the formations or religions and quite a few religions had their inceptions from about 2000 BCE onward.

This was the iron age and we know quite a bit about it.

Monotheism originated around 1300-1400 BCE With Judaism originating around 2000 BCE. And even then the existence of other gods was not denied it was more that it was against religious law to worship any other gods but what ever one was the subject of any particular religion.

This is even hinted at in the OT . "You shall have no other gods before me" That seems to me that the existence of other gods was not denied but worshiping other gods was forbidden in Judaism.

 

[Blues Man]

Thanks for acknowledging that.

As for your question, the first thing to understand is that ALL people are sinners. With the exception of babies and young children under the age of accountability, we are ALL accountable to God for everything we do in this life.

God saves people who are genuinely repentant and who genuinely put their faith and trust in Him, which involves making the conscious choice to turn away from our previous life and choose to follow Jesus.

No one can 'pull the wool' over God's eyes, so to speak. In other words, if a murderer, thief, adulterer or whatever is not genuinely repentant and doesn't have a genuine change of mind / heart, then empty words don't matter.

Jesus said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” The reason He said that is because no one is "righteous" apart from God. (by righteous I mean people who are always good, all the time, and always obey God.)

So if Jesus only forgave the "good people" then there wouldn't be anyone to forgive. Only babies, small children and animals would be in heaven, because they are the only ones who are innocent.

Did that answer your question?

But for the concept of original sin.

I tend to see it from the perspective that Christianity is basically Judaism blended with humanism. The wrathful god of the OT was given a new warmer fuzzier persona so as to appeal to more people. After all Judaism was for Jews and not all people were or could be Jewish so the potential pool of believers was limited.

Yes I know this sound cynical but people are people and they did things like this even way back in the iron age.

 

[ChemEngineer]

What drives atheists crazy is telling them that theirs is a religion, as affirmed by the Supreme Court.

The U.S. Supreme Court declared that atheism is a religion.
Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)


The Supreme Court more recently reiterated this finding in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 545U.S. 844, 125 S.Ct. 2722, 162 L.Ed.2d 729 (2005).​

They don't even know that there is more than one definition to words, including "religion", viz., a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance:
"consumerism is the new religion"

Shakespeare may as well have been talking about atheists when he wrote a verse in Hamlet: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If atheism is so "rational" and "scientific," then why do atheists leave their religion more than anyone else?

Why are 85% of Nobel Laureates in science Christians and Jews and not atheists? Watch the atheists try to change the subject.