Arrested for 'flipping the bird' to the PoPo...

[KeiserC]

correction.... NOT arrested, but Ticketed.... (my mistake)

Indiana Criminal Code states “a person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable person to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction,” which carries a penalty of up to $500. Now this statute is specific to Indiana, though I'm sure all 49 other states can't differ too much on this.

Can an argument be made for assuming that a 'Law Enforcement Officer' on the job essentially has to be of sound and reasonable mind? Is it reasonable to consider it a forgone conclusion that a hand gesture will not elicit a badge and gun carrying officer to "commit battery" upon seeing such a gesture; as opposed to an unknown individual who could be a sociopath, felon etc. etc. ?

I have seen some, particularly young male, officers use indiscretion over the years. Does this issue beg the issue on requisite training and temperament for our LEO's ?

ACLU lawsuit: ISP ticket for rude gesture violates rights

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Courts have ruled in the past that it's protected speech. They can't legally ticket you for it, but that doesn't mean they won't try.

Police: Middle finger ticket to be training tool

 

[Camp]

Cops are representatives and agents of the government. We have a right to address the government even if we choose to do it in a crude or insulting or abstract manner. If cops don't like it they should find new jobs

 

[ABikerSailor]

Interestingly enough, there was one time when I was having a bit of a disagreement with my neighbor. Well, he pulled into his driveway one afternoon when I was on my front porch, and I flipped him off.

Well, there was a cop just down the street, and he went to the cop and told him that I had flipped him off. The cop then told my neighbor that it was not nice, but he couldn't do anything about it because flipping the bird was considered free speech.

 

[bgrouse]

There are stupid and unconstitutional laws on many local books. Unfortunately, most people lack the brains to be good leaders, so this stuff is far more likely to still exist as a local law. Unfortunately, until someone gets ticketed under the statute and that ticket leads to a court case that goes to the SC, it's likely to stay on the books indefinitely.

 

[monkrules]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture. Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

 

[KeiserC]

Interestingly enough, there was one time when I was having a bit of a disagreement with my neighbor. Well, he pulled into his driveway one afternoon when I was on my front porch, and I flipped him off.

Well, there was a cop just down the street, and he went to the cop and told him that I had flipped him off. The cop then told my neighbor that it was not nice, but he couldn't do anything about it because flipping the bird was considered free speech.

Being in your car is obviously the crucial difference here. I'm quite sure that if you were outside your car when flipping the officer off he wouldn't dare ticket you...

 

[KeiserC]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture. Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

That's mighty 'old school' of you, believe me I wish I could go back to those days of the honor duel etc. Obviously with our Constitution and the various amendments we live in a " more civilized " society. The old way does kind of seem simpler though... lol

 

[rightwinger]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture. Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

The doctrine of sticks and stones applies

 

[aaronleland]

Interestingly enough, there was one time when I was having a bit of a disagreement with my neighbor. Well, he pulled into his driveway one afternoon when I was on my front porch, and I flipped him off.

Well, there was a cop just down the street, and he went to the cop and told him that I had flipped him off. The cop then told my neighbor that it was not nice, but he couldn't do anything about it because flipping the bird was considered free speech.

Wasting an officer's time with that. Your neighbor is an asshat.

 

[bgrouse]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture.

The person doing the stomping should be sent to prison or executed, depending on the severity of the stomping. At no point should the jury so much as consider the "bird."

Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I think law enforcement should punish the "stomper" severely. Giving him a pass is no different than outlawing free speech.

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

You can blame whomever you want. The guy who can't tolerate free speech should be in prison or dead, depending on the severity of the stomping.

 

[fncceo]

correction.... NOT arrested, but Ticketed.... (my mistake)

Indiana Criminal Code states “a person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable person to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction,” which carries a penalty of up to $500. Now this statute is specific to Indiana, though I'm sure all 49 other states can't differ too much on this.

Can an argument be made for assuming that a 'Law Enforcement Officer' on the job essentially has to be of sound and reasonable mind? Is it reasonable to consider it a forgone conclusion that a hand gesture will not elicit a badge and gun carrying officer to "commit battery" upon seeing such a gesture; as opposed to an unknown individual who could be a sociopath, felon etc. etc. ?

I have seen some, particularly young male, officers use indiscretion over the years. Does this issue beg the issue on requisite training and temperament for our LEO's ?

ACLU lawsuit: ISP ticket for rude gesture violates rights

If a statute is on the books, police may give the legislated penalty.

Any person who believes the penalty is unfair or unconstitutional may take the matter to court.

Police aren’t involved with the law-making process.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Interestingly enough, there was one time when I was having a bit of a disagreement with my neighbor. Well, he pulled into his driveway one afternoon when I was on my front porch, and I flipped him off.

Well, there was a cop just down the street, and he went to the cop and told him that I had flipped him off. The cop then told my neighbor that it was not nice, but he couldn't do anything about it because flipping the bird was considered free speech.

Being in your car is obviously the crucial difference here. I'm quite sure that if you were outside your car when flipping the officer off he wouldn't dare ticket you...

Dude, you misread my post. I was sitting on my front porch, when he drove into his driveway. I flipped him off as he got out of his car. He then got ahold of an officer down the street who told him that although the gesture wasn't nice, it was still free speech.

 

[KeiserC]

Interestingly enough, there was one time when I was having a bit of a disagreement with my neighbor. Well, he pulled into his driveway one afternoon when I was on my front porch, and I flipped him off.

Well, there was a cop just down the street, and he went to the cop and told him that I had flipped him off. The cop then told my neighbor that it was not nice, but he couldn't do anything about it because flipping the bird was considered free speech.

Being in your car is obviously the crucial difference here. I'm quite sure that if you were outside your car when flipping the officer off he wouldn't dare ticket you...

Dude, you misread my post. I was sitting on my front porch, when he drove into his driveway. I flipped him off as he got out of his car. He then got ahold of an officer down the street who told him that although the gesture wasn't nice, it was still free speech.

Absolutely... I agree. I think that the main takeaway is that when you are operating a vehicle you are essentially operating a, potentially utilizable, deadly weapon. That, & driving is a 'privilege' not a 'right'.

 

[MikeK]

Cops are representatives and agents of the government. We have a right to address the government even if we choose to do it in a crude or insulting or abstract manner. If cops don't like it they should find new jobs

I agree with the fundamental premise of your argument. But there are circumstances under which certain gestures or expressions, such as the middle-finger salute, can be potentially harmful distractions rather than essentially harmless idioms.

So while the circumstances surrounding gestures or expressions must be considered to determine potential culpability I can't think of a situation in which physical violence would be a justifiable response to an offensive gesture or expression.

 

[harmonica]

this is ridiculous to ticket someone for giving the finger--everyone does it

Indiana Criminal Code states “a person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable person to commit battery commits provocation

..giving the finger does not fall into this category
..now maybe something like mentioning someone's family, saying you are going to kill them, etc--maybe...but even then, that's sketchy
....it says conduct--so not words??? you can say ''FU or the N-word??
..this was abuse of power--plain and simple
....this seems like an DUMBASS law---provoke...how??

 

[harmonica]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture. Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

I would agree you should get a ticket if there are children around--say like at a sports game/children's area/etc

 

[KeiserC]

Long ago I lived in a city in which you could be ticketed for using obscene language. (I don't remember if they would arrest someone for it).
----
In an earlier post a member talked about giving his neighbor the finger. Now, a lot of people would jump all over someone who gives them the bird.

So what happens if after being given the bird, a person stomps the guy who made the obscene gesture. Should the ass-kicker be given a pass? After all the guy giving the bird was only exercising his "freedom of speech". But that doesn't mean the action will be, or should be, free of consequences.

What do you think?

I believe someone stupid enough to give another person the finger should get his ass seriously kicked. And I would lay the blame on the dumbass who gave the finger. Imo, he was begging for a beat down. No one should have to tolerate insults from another person. Fuck their "free speech". Let the beating serve as your "free speech" response to a brainless wiseguy.

I would agree you should get a ticket if there are children around--say like at a sports game/children's area/etc

Society is society, what happens, hypothetically, if your in a Muslim populated area and your wearing a T-shirt that has some slur about F' the 'rag heads' or strolling in Bocaratone FL w/ Nazi symbol with something to the effect of '2nd Holocaust wanted' or shirt barely short of pornographic at a kids ball game etc. etc. recipe for a Nanny state, courts would be very busy 'subjectively' determining any given scenario.... Freedom cuts both ways in a 'free' society.