Armed robbers can now kill victims in self defense and not be charged with murder

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

No.

If the Criminal shoots you under any circumstances, that's a crime. And if you die as a result, that's Capital Murder.

That's why its very important for Criminals not to get violent, that's illegal.

Well I wish you could convey that message to the criminals in the county and surrounding counties where I live because they are getting increasingly violent.

 

[Polishprince]

Well I wish you could convey that message to the criminals in the county and surrounding counties where I live because they are getting increasingly violent.

I think they listen to liberals who give them the impression that violence is ok.

 

[Batcat]

If the criminal is no longer in possession of the items he was stealing, I have to agree with you. But if he has a dame's purse or bag of money he stole from a bank- the people have a right to shoot IF they clearly tell the criminal "Stop or I'll shoot" first.

Reminds me of an incident that happened years ago in St Pete. Florida.

Man robs a gas station. He runs out the door and keeps running.

The store clerk comes outside and yells. “Stop that man. He just robbed me.”

A man at the pumps filling his car pulls a 9mm pistol and fires multiple rounds at the fleeing man. The guy keeps running so everybody assumes the shooter had missed. He decides to drive off.

The police arrives and find the robber dead a short distance away.

The news that night asked the shooter to contact the police. They made it sound like he might get a reward,

The shooter was smart enough to NOT contact the police. I don’t believe they ever found out who it was.

 

[SavannahMann]

The Far Left & Left have it in for CHL/ CWP/ CCW Permits ( And Private Non Military / Non Leo / Non Security State Firearms ownership )

I wouldn’t say that. In fact, if I’d had my way we wouldn’t be discussing this at all.

First, I am a CCW license holder, despite the fact that Georgia went Constitutional Carry, I still have and intend to maintain my license. Second, I usually carry when I am out and about.

I am in favor of Licensing, and training. Training doesn’t mean going to the range and blasting away hitting jack shit. It does mean some range time to show you are able to hit the stupid target at a reasonable distance. Mostly it means learning the laws. And how they will apply to you.

If this idiot clerk had known that by running outside he would face Felony Charges, do you think he would have grabbed his pistol and rushed out? If he understood that by doing so he would lose the right to legally own a firearm for the rest of his life, and spend years in prison, would he have rushed out to get the baddie? I don’t think so. If he had, then he was an idiot, and we can hope he hasn’t yet procreated since we have way too many idiots in the world.

Learning the laws, and how they are applied is vital. It is just as important as learning your weapon, and how to use it safely. I attended one of those courses, despite the fact it wasn’t mandatory. I signed up for USCCW and read the material they sent, which was just about identical to what I had been told in the class. I even went to a lawyer to discuss it. Because I wanted to know the rules of the game I was getting into. The rules that I would be judged by if God forbid I ever had to use the firearm in defense.

So I am a supporter of Licensing, not Constitutional Carry, and I am absolutely in favor of mandatory training including the laws you will be judged by when or if you ever pull out the bang stick.

Take any case where you feel some damned Liberal screwed over a good gun owner, and chances are there wasn’t anything new done. Just the same laws that had been on the books for decades being applied exactly the same way they were applied for years before. But the Internet Experts read an article about how they have a right to defend their property. They don’t understand those rights. They don’t understand the limits, and they figure the Cops they support are totally on their side. They get in the interview and talk, and tell their story, and talk their way into trouble because they don’t know the laws, they don’t know what the import of what they are saying, and what isn’t being said.

I am not in favor of banning weapons, and most Democrats in Georgia aren’t either. A few are, but there are always a few, in every state. The thing we are in favor of is you learning what is going on, and what will happen if you pull the trigger. Understanding what is going on, and how the laws will be applied will save you serious sorrow down the road.

The McMichaels in Brunswick are a perfect example. Those idiots literally did everything I was told not to do during that training I mentioned. They broke several laws before they shot the kid. Seriously. And they were convicted of the laws, already on the books, for decades, by a Jury. Nothing new was done. Nothing precedent setting. Nothing unfair. It was just the same laws that have been there for decades, being applied according to the precedents set decades ago, by the same courts.

Now, you can decry my position as a terrible thing. Go ahead, pretend the laws say what you want them to say instead of what they actually say. Blame the damned Liberals when you are on the wrong side of those laws, Blame the fucking Leftists when you are looking at bankruptcy because of legal expenses. Blame everyone except the one person responsible as you are taken off to Prison. You. You had a chance to learn the laws. You had a chance to understand the situation was more than just deciding to protect yourself. You had a chance to prepare yourself for what comes after. You had a chance to better understand the situation, according to the law, than you do now.

I wrote this before. If the Clerk had survived, he would be headed to prison, in pretty much every single state in the Union. You can argue it shouldn’t be that way, and even if I was to agree, the truth is that is the way it really is. And that is the rules you will be judged by if you do use force. If you don’t know the rules, and you don’t understand those rules, you can’t help but be surprised when it all comes crashing down on your fantasies of heroic action.

 

[Batcat]

George Zimmerman initiated the confrontation with Martin and had been following him (stalking him) for a while before that confrontation and did so with no lawful authority. He like many here on this board believe that having a concealed carry permit conveys some type of quasi law enforcement authority which it does not.
Zimmerman should not have been able to avail himself of the self-defense laws under these conditions especially since he told the 911 dispatcher that he was indeed following Martin.

You may find the following video informative. The total videos is well worth watching and at about 7 minutes in Ayoob discusses the Zimmerman case.

You may not know the narrator.

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Massad F. Ayoob (born July 20, 1948) is an American firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques and civilian self-defenseto both law enforcement officers and private citizens since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, from 1981 to 2009, and now operates his own company.[1] Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and retired in 2017 with the rank of Captain from the Grantham, New Hampshire, police department.[2] On September 30th 2020, Ayoob was named president[3] of the Second Amendment Foundation. His nickname is "the bad ass of self-defense."

Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, Guns & Ammo and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense and firearms related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which is broadcast on the Sportsman Channel in the US.

Ayoob has appeared in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor. Ayoob is believed to be the only non-attorney to serve as Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), a position he formerly held.[4][5] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[5]

 

[Failzero]

I wouldn’t say that. In fact, if I’d had my way we wouldn’t be discussing this at all.

First, I am a CCW license holder, despite the fact that Georgia went Constitutional Carry, I still have and intend to maintain my license. Second, I usually carry when I am out and about.

I am in favor of Licensing, and training. Training doesn’t mean going to the range and blasting away hitting jack shit. It does mean some range time to show you are able to hit the stupid target at a reasonable distance. Mostly it means learning the laws. And how they will apply to you.

If this idiot clerk had known that by running outside he would face Felony Charges, do you think he would have grabbed his pistol and rushed out? If he understood that by doing so he would lose the right to legally own a firearm for the rest of his life, and spend years in prison, would he have rushed out to get the baddie? I don’t think so. If he had, then he was an idiot, and we can hope he hasn’t yet procreated since we have way too many idiots in the world.

Learning the laws, and how they are applied is vital. It is just as important as learning your weapon, and how to use it safely. I attended one of those courses, despite the fact it wasn’t mandatory. I signed up for USCCW and read the material they sent, which was just about identical to what I had been told in the class. I even went to a lawyer to discuss it. Because I wanted to know the rules of the game I was getting into. The rules that I would be judged by if God forbid I ever had to use the firearm in defense.

So I am a supporter of Licensing, not Constitutional Carry, and I am absolutely in favor of mandatory training including the laws you will be judged by when or if you ever pull out the bang stick.

Take any case where you feel some damned Liberal screwed over a good gun owner, and chances are there wasn’t anything new done. Just the same laws that had been on the books for decades being applied exactly the same way they were applied for years before. But the Internet Experts read an article about how they have a right to defend their property. They don’t understand those rights. They don’t understand the limits, and they figure the Cops they support are totally on their side. They get in the interview and talk, and tell their story, and talk their way into trouble because they don’t know the laws, they don’t know what the import of what they are saying, and what isn’t being said.

I am not in favor of banning weapons, and most Democrats in Georgia aren’t either. A few are, but there are always a few, in every state. The thing we are in favor of is you learning what is going on, and what will happen if you pull the trigger. Understanding what is going on, and how the laws will be applied will save you serious sorrow down the road.

The McMichaels in Brunswick are a perfect example. Those idiots literally did everything I was told not to do during that training I mentioned. They broke several laws before they shot the kid. Seriously. And they were convicted of the laws, already on the books, for decades, by a Jury. Nothing new was done. Nothing precedent setting. Nothing unfair. It was just the same laws that have been there for decades, being applied according to the precedents set decades ago, by the same courts.

Now, you can decry my position as a terrible thing. Go ahead, pretend the laws say what you want them to say instead of what they actually say. Blame the damned Liberals when you are on the wrong side of those laws, Blame the fucking Leftists when you are looking at bankruptcy because of legal expenses. Blame everyone except the one person responsible as you are taken off to Prison. You. You had a chance to learn the laws. You had a chance to understand the situation was more than just deciding to protect yourself. You had a chance to prepare yourself for what comes after. You had a chance to better understand the situation, according to the law, than you do now.

I wrote this before. If the Clerk had survived, he would be headed to prison, in pretty much every single state in the Union. You can argue it shouldn’t be that way, and even if I was to agree, the truth is that is the way it really is. And that is the rules you will be judged by if you do use force. If you don’t know the rules, and you don’t understand those rules, you can’t help but be surprised when it all comes crashing down on your fantasies of heroic action.

Carried in California Legally
Since 2011 ( Current CALIFORNIA CCW Holder ) and have carried in Bay Area , Orange & Los Angeles Counties , Beverly Hills , Newport Harbor / Balboa Island / Catalina , Santa Monica / Venice , Palm Desert / Death Valley , Mammoth , Santa Cruz , San Diego , Coronado , North Long Beach , Highland Park , Downtown LA , Susanville , Willow Creek , Shasta County
... and never once been in a situation
Where I considered pullin my EDC weapon

,

 

[Captain Caveman]

This is the world we now live in.

California robbery suspect killed store clerk, not charged with murder; victim didn’t act in self-defense: DA

James Williams, 36, opened fire on the robbery suspects as they were fleeing before one fatally shot him in the leg and chest, authorities said

A man accused of killing a California gas station clerk during a "botched" robbery will not face a murder charge because the victim had opened fire on the suspect despite his life not being in danger, officials said Thursday.

James Williams, 36, was killed during an early Saturday morning gunfight with Ronald Jackson Jr., 20, at a Chevron in Antioch, Fox San Francisco reported.

The Antioch Police Department said a gas station employee called to report a person had been shot at the Extra Mile mini-mart just after 2 a.m. When officers arrived, they found a man with a gunshot wound to the head inside the store.

"Officers at the scene were able to determine that the victim was an employee-clerk at the service station and was held-up at gunpoint during what appears to be a 'botched robbery,'" a police statement said. Williams was working inside the store when he was confronted by two suspects, one of whom was identified as Jackson, who was allegedly armed with a gun. Williams then pulled out his own weapon. Jackson allegedly ran out of the store, while dropping cigar packages, and was shot. Williams kept firing as Jackson was on the ground before Jackson allegedly returned fire and killed him, the news report said.

"He didn't deserve this, and he was such a good guy, family man," Annette Matamoroz, Williams' girlfriend and co-worker who was in the store when he was killed, told the news outlet. Jackson was not charged with murder because under the law, the killing could be considered self-defense, authorities said.

The Contra Costa County District Attorney's Office said Williams pursued Jackson despite the threat of bodily harm or injury had subsided. "In the eyes of the law, Mr. Williams' actions ceased to be self-defense when Mr. Williams pursued Mr. Jackson and the other suspect with a firearm and continued to pursue Mr. Jackson after he shot him," Contra Costa County District Attorney Diana Becton said in a news release.

"The legal distinction is clear: when your property and life are being threatened, an individual is legally justified in using deadly force in self-defense," she added. "However, once the threat of harm has dissipated, the victim of a property crime cannot then use deadly force to reclaim stolen property."

Antioch investigators submitted their findings to the district attorney's office, which instead "elected to charge Jackson with robbery, possession of stolen property, and a firearm enhancement, but declined to charge him with murder," police said.

"The members of the Antioch Police Department extend their condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Williams," the department said.

This is the Clown World we live in now.

Gun nuts struggle with the concept, "Reasonable force", their objective is shoot to kill with as many bullets as they can in any situation. Change my mind.

 

[Failzero]

Gun nuts struggle with the concept, "Reasonable force", their objective is shoot to kill with as many bullets as they can in any situation. Change my mind.

Surely you mean Rapid Mag dumping cops ( who top off quickly and re engage to mag dump more )

 

[Captain Caveman]

Surely you mean Rapid Mag dumping cops ( who top off quickly and re engage to mag dump more )

I'm uk, a burglar carrying a screwdriver ends up in a struggle with the homeowner. The burglar is stabbed in the fight with the screwdriver and later dies. Police investigation finds it reasonable force and no charges.

A farmer, burglar breaks in, sees the farmer and flees. Farmer then shoots the burglar who dies. Farmer is jailed, wasn't reasonable force.

It's an easy concept (not to gun nuts)

 

[Persuader]

This is the world we now live in.

California robbery suspect killed store clerk, not charged with murder; victim didn’t act in self-defense: DA

James Williams, 36, opened fire on the robbery suspects as they were fleeing before one fatally shot him in the leg and chest, authorities said

A man accused of killing a California gas station clerk during a "botched" robbery will not face a murder charge because the victim had opened fire on the suspect despite his life not being in danger, officials said Thursday.

James Williams, 36, was killed during an early Saturday morning gunfight with Ronald Jackson Jr., 20, at a Chevron in Antioch, Fox San Francisco reported.

The Antioch Police Department said a gas station employee called to report a person had been shot at the Extra Mile mini-mart just after 2 a.m. When officers arrived, they found a man with a gunshot wound to the head inside the store.

"Officers at the scene were able to determine that the victim was an employee-clerk at the service station and was held-up at gunpoint during what appears to be a 'botched robbery,'" a police statement said. Williams was working inside the store when he was confronted by two suspects, one of whom was identified as Jackson, who was allegedly armed with a gun. Williams then pulled out his own weapon. Jackson allegedly ran out of the store, while dropping cigar packages, and was shot. Williams kept firing as Jackson was on the ground before Jackson allegedly returned fire and killed him, the news report said.

"He didn't deserve this, and he was such a good guy, family man," Annette Matamoroz, Williams' girlfriend and co-worker who was in the store when he was killed, told the news outlet. Jackson was not charged with murder because under the law, the killing could be considered self-defense, authorities said.

The Contra Costa County District Attorney's Office said Williams pursued Jackson despite the threat of bodily harm or injury had subsided. "In the eyes of the law, Mr. Williams' actions ceased to be self-defense when Mr. Williams pursued Mr. Jackson and the other suspect with a firearm and continued to pursue Mr. Jackson after he shot him," Contra Costa County District Attorney Diana Becton said in a news release.

"The legal distinction is clear: when your property and life are being threatened, an individual is legally justified in using deadly force in self-defense," she added. "However, once the threat of harm has dissipated, the victim of a property crime cannot then use deadly force to reclaim stolen property."

Antioch investigators submitted their findings to the district attorney's office, which instead "elected to charge Jackson with robbery, possession of stolen property, and a firearm enhancement, but declined to charge him with murder," police said.

"The members of the Antioch Police Department extend their condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Williams," the department said.

This is the Clown World we live in now.

They claim the clerk pursued the criminal.....yet according to statement he never left the store and in fact was killed by the criminal whilst still in the store. The authorities in Calif. so biased by their liberal mindset can never be counted on to tell the truth irregardless.

 

[Mac-7]

The Clerk was wrong. The Clerk was committing a crime in pursuing and shooting at the Robbery Suspect.

Only in criminal friendly california

 

[Persuader]

The takeaway from all this is that Calif. has gone bad and will continue to get worse......you live there at your peril as in Calif. is more interested in protecting criminals than honest citizens.

 

[Persuader]

Only in criminal friendly california

Good citizens should never support bad laws.....just because something is lawful does not absolutely mean it is a good law..........lots of bad laws.....many innocent people are in jail.

Miscarriages of justice are growing more common....and common sense is being tossed out by pc prosecuting attorneys who are misleading juries.....using the law to create unjustice.....a skillful attorney and a few dumb jurors have created havoc in the justice system and it is only getting worse.

 

[Mac-7]

I'm uk, a burglar carrying a screwdriver ends up in a struggle with the homeowner. The burglar is stabbed in the fight with the screwdriver and later dies. Police investigation finds it reasonable force and no charges.

A farmer, burglar breaks in, sees the farmer and flees. Farmer then shoots the burglar who dies. Farmer is jailed, wasn't reasonable force.

It's an easy concept (not to gun nuts)

I assume the burglar was not armed with anything more deadly than pen knife

But the california robber had a gun and was a threat to the public

He had no right to self defense

 

[SavannahMann]

Only in criminal friendly california

In Florida, and in Georgia. Shall I continue to list “Conservative States” with similar laws?

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I prefer Indiana's law

New Indiana Law Gives Residents Right to Resist Police

A new law likely makes Indiana the only state where people are allowed to shoot cops under certain circumstances. The change, police officials say, not only puts officer’s safety at risk but the public’s too.

www.google.com

 

[Mac-7]

In Florida, and in Georgia. Shall I continue to list “Conservative States” with similar laws?

Lib DA’s use their prosecutorial discretion to favor the criminal

Whereas conservatives favor the honest citizens

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

You may find the following video informative. The total videos is well worth watching and at about 7 minutes in Ayoob discusses the Zimmerman case.

You may not know the narrator.

Massad Ayoob - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Massad F. Ayoob (born July 20, 1948) is an American firearms and self-defense instructor. He has taught police techniques and civilian self-defenseto both law enforcement officers and private citizens since 1974. He was the director of the Lethal Force Institute in Concord, New Hampshire, from 1981 to 2009, and now operates his own company.[1] Ayoob has appeared as an expert witness in several trials. He served as a part-time police officer in New Hampshire since 1972 and retired in 2017 with the rank of Captain from the Grantham, New Hampshire, police department.[2] On September 30th 2020, Ayoob was named president[3] of the Second Amendment Foundation. His nickname is "the bad ass of self-defense."

Ayoob has authored several books and more than 1,000 articles on firearms, combat techniques, self-defense, and legal issues, and has served in an editorial capacity for Guns Magazine, American Handgunner, Gun Week, Guns & Ammo and Combat Handguns. Since 1995, he has written self-defense and firearms related articles for Backwoods Home Magazine. He also has a featured segment on the television show Personal Defense TV, which is broadcast on the Sportsman Channel in the US.

Ayoob has appeared in the courtroom as a testifying police officer, expert witness, and police prosecutor. Ayoob is believed to be the only non-attorney to serve as Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), a position he formerly held.[4][5] His course for attorneys, titled "The Management of the Lethal Force/Deadly Weapons Case", was, according to Jeffrey Weiner: "the best course for everything you need to know but are never taught in law school."[5]

Been there done that, I currently hold 3 concealed weapon permits from different states with two others having expired because I haven't spent any time lately in those states. I'm also required to recertify for one of my state licenses each year with both the written and shooting exams.

I've had a Florida concealed carry permit for 20 years as a non-resident so I have more than a passing familiarity with their concealed carry laws as well as other laws which impact me. That is why I stated what I did about Zimmerman and I can't conceive of any set of circumstances that would make me change my mind about him or what he did, especially since he's stated that had he known then what he now knows he still would have shot Martin (that he was unarmed and basically "a kid").

George Zimmerman is the reason that Black Lives Matter was founded. And things have begun to change for the better since then. Slowly the ship is turning around.

 

[SavannahMann]

Lib DA’s use their prosecutorial discretion to favor the criminal

Whereas conservatives favor the honest citizens

So let me get this straight. The law says one thing. And the courts have ruled on that law decades ago, and now you want the cops, prosecutors, and Judges to ignore the laws in favor of your imaginary honest citizen?

Any other laws you don’t want followed? We aren’t repealing them, or changing them, we are just going back to the “good old days” when certain people were not held to account for their actions. If I understand your point.

Remember the McMichaels? I kept telling you, and I remember your posts, that they were screwed in Georgia. They were tried in one of the more conservative areas. And I told you that they would be convicted. Not because of the Media. Not because of the potential for protest. But because they had literally done every single thing the instructor at the training class had told us not to do.

How did these liberal DA’s send these trainers back in time to describe the laws and what would happen?

I was taught that waving your gun around was a felony. It was called Aggravated Assault. They jumped in the truck waving the bang sticks around. I was told that unless you saw the guy commit a crime you could not place him under citizens arrest. If you did and were wrong then you would be going to jail. The McMichaels tried to do so stupidly.

Now I took that course about a decade before Daddy and Junior set off in pursuit. I joined USCCA and their books describing the laws in Georgia said the same thing.

How the everloving fuckberries did the Liberals go back in time and arrange this?

 

[Batcat]

Been there done that, I currently hold 3 concealed weapon permits from different states with two others having expired because I haven't spent any time lately in those states. I'm also required to recertify for one of my state licenses each year with both the written and shooting exams.

I've had a Florida concealed carry permit for 20 years as a non-resident so I have more than a passing familiarity with their concealed carry laws as well as other laws which impact me. That is why I stated what I did about Zimmerman and I can't conceive of any set of circumstances that would make me change my mind about him or what he did, especially since he's stated that had he known then what he now knows he still would have shot Martin (that he was unarmed and basically "a kid").

George Zimmerman is the reason that Black Lives Matter was founded. And things have begun to change for the better since then. Slowly the ship is turning around.

How do you feel about Florida passing constitutional carry next year?

MSN

www.msn.com