Arctic sea ice now the second lowest on record

[mdn2000]

Sea ice extent grew throughout October, as the temperature dropped and darkness returned to the Arctic. However, a period of relatively slow ice growth early in the month kept the average ice extent low—October 2009 had the second-lowest ice extent for the month over the 1979 to 2009 period.

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

Wow a whole 30 year record? Shocking indeed.

Sorry, we are melting the North Pole.

It has been there for millions of years.

Actually it is quite shocking.

No Chrissy, its not shocking, Ice comes and goes, that is why you have an average to compare this year with, without above and below ice melts you would not have an average.

With so litlle chrissy posts I dont think she is serious at all, chrissy is just interested in the headline of the thread, the title, why else would the gal not debate.

So you can post a link, that just shows me people are guillable, that just shows some people read "chicken little" and beleive the sky is falling. If you actually read the links and crosschecked the people who compile this data you would see that they dont know and in most cases they admit they dont know.

How about theat antartic ice, its getting bigger.

 

[Old Rocks]

No, Antarctic continental ice is losing mass. While the winter expanse of Antarctic sea ice has expanded, in spite of warmer ocean temperatures.

How to cherry pick your way to Antarctic land ice gain

An argument that has found new life in recent weeks is Antarctica gaining ice. It even shot its way into the top ten (at least until the next fad pushes it out). This is largely attributable to an article in The Australian, Antarctic ice is growing, not melting away. The article makes its argument simply and effectively in a single sentence:

"East Antarctica is four times the size of west Antarctica and parts of it are cooling."
Both statements are true. However, what the article fails to mention is that while parts of the East Antarctic interior are gaining ice, it's also losing ice around the edges and overall, is in approximate mass balance. So with West Antarctica losing ice and East Antarctica in balance, Antarctica is overall losing ice. But all The Australian does is cite the size of East Antarctica, mention that parts of it are cooling and the inference is East Antarctic ice gain must outweigh West Antarctic ice melt. It's clever persuasion but very misleading.

The article then transitions into a discussion of sea ice so smoothly, you barely even notice they're no longer talking about land ice. Many discussions of Antarctic ice melt fail to distinguish between land ice and sea ice which are two separate phenomenon. Antarctic land ice is falling. Antarctic sea ice, on the other hand, is increasing. This is partly due to less ocean heat rising to melt sea ice and partly due to cyclonic winds caused by the ozone hole (more on this in an upcoming post). It's important to note that sea ice is increasing despite the Southern Ocean showing pronounced warming.

So to properly understand what's happening with climate, you need the full picture, not a selection of conveniently cherry picked factoids. But how do you communicate complex climate issues in a soundbyte? How do scientists give a user-friendly version of climatology science without over-simplifying? It's an issue I wrestle with a lot lately and welcome any discussion on the topic.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hey, did you guys follow the links, seriously, this is a great debate by the TWINs, just look how smart they posted links, those are great links folks. I cannot come up with a link to trump their links, these guys are good.
I will get back to this thread as soon as I get my links lined up. Just wait until you see how my links make me look smarter than your links.

I wonder if all these Ice cubes at 7/11 are really artic ice some evil republican capitalist working for Bush is selling, damned Bush and halliburton are stealing artic ice to sell as ice cubes.

Good thread, twins, you boys sure know how to post links.

Of course you cannot. There are no credible sources stateing that Artic Ice is not melting rapidly.

As for the rest of your drivel, the level of arguement one has come to expect from you.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

 

[Old Rocks]

Sea ice extent grew throughout October, as the temperature dropped and darkness returned to the Arctic. However, a period of relatively slow ice growth early in the month kept the average ice extent low—October 2009 had the second-lowest ice extent for the month over the 1979 to 2009 period.

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

Wow a whole 30 year record? Shocking indeed.

At no time in known history has the Arctic Ocean been open enough for a large freighter to easily traverse it. Last year, two such freightors did just that.

 

[Old Rocks]

Post a link to your source.

Here is a chart for the increase and decrease in Arctic Sea ice for the last 45 years;

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/sea.ice.anomaly.timeseries.jpg

And here is a chart for the Antarctic Sea ice.

http://ioc3.unesco.org/oopc/meetings/oopc-9/presentations/monPM/Rayner_OOPC9_pr.pdf

So the chart you presented was a very good job of cherry picking. For the whole data set shows a marked decrease in ice since the 70's.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sea ice extent grew throughout October, as the temperature dropped and darkness returned to the Arctic. However, a period of relatively slow ice growth early in the month kept the average ice extent low—October 2009 had the second-lowest ice extent for the month over the 1979 to 2009 period.

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

Wow a whole 30 year record? Shocking indeed.

At no time in known history has the Arctic Ocean been open enough for a large freighter to easily traverse it. Last year, two such freightors did just that.

That is a straight up LIE. Before the 1700's few ships traveled anywhere near the arctic. So you have NO IDEA what it was like during the times before we started keeping records. And in fact NO ONE kept records during the hot spot time from 1920's to the end of the 1940's. Nor did people routinely try to sail through the ice back then.

Now to recap all you have is a 30 year record with no data to support anything before that data set. THAT is called science. You do not just get to fabricate information and claim it is data.

 

[Old Rocks]

Wow a whole 30 year record? Shocking indeed.

At no time in known history has the Arctic Ocean been open enough for a large freighter to easily traverse it. Last year, two such freightors did just that.

That is a straight up LIE. Before the 1700's few ships traveled anywhere near the arctic. So you have NO IDEA what it was like during the times before we started keeping records. And in fact NO ONE kept records during the hot spot time from 1920's to the end of the 1940's. Nor did people routinely try to sail through the ice back then.

Now to recap all you have is a 30 year record with no data to support anything before that data set. THAT is called science. You do not just get to fabricate information and claim it is data.

I see. Then you are totally ignorant of the attempts to find the Northwest Passage. And you believe that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Russians have all been illiterate for the last 500 years?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

At no time in known history has the Arctic Ocean been open enough for a large freighter to easily traverse it. Last year, two such freightors did just that.

That is a straight up LIE. Before the 1700's few ships traveled anywhere near the arctic. So you have NO IDEA what it was like during the times before we started keeping records. And in fact NO ONE kept records during the hot spot time from 1920's to the end of the 1940's. Nor did people routinely try to sail through the ice back then.

Now to recap all you have is a 30 year record with no data to support anything before that data set. THAT is called science. You do not just get to fabricate information and claim it is data.

I see. Then you are totally ignorant of the attempts to find the Northwest Passage. And you believe that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Russians have all been illiterate for the last 500 years?

Retard. You do not get to fabricate data and claim it is scientific. And NO ONE spent the last 500 years constantly looking for a Northwest passage. But lets pretend they did, shall we? YOU claimed that there has NEVER been a clear enough passage in the ENTIRE HISTORY of man. No one was sailing into those regions in any numbers that left any data before 1700's. Your claim is false on its face. NO ONE knows what the arctic looked like before modern sailing vessels were constructed. And the only reason ships are trying passages now are because of satellite data that tells them what is clear and where.

From the mid 20's to the end of the 40's in the 1900's there was a stronger heating trend then NOW in the arctic. No one made any major effort to observe nor travel the arctic in any scientific manner to record the conditions each year during that heating trend. There were no satellites to record the data either.

Further currently UNDER the ice MAJOR volcanic activity is occurring. Again we only know this because of the state of our science NOW. No one knows what that activity was like in the past. The floor of the ocean is seeing major activity up there, down there or what ever direction you want to assign it.

 

[Old Rocks]

That is a straight up LIE. Before the 1700's few ships traveled anywhere near the arctic. So you have NO IDEA what it was like during the times before we started keeping records. And in fact NO ONE kept records during the hot spot time from 1920's to the end of the 1940's. Nor did people routinely try to sail through the ice back then.

Now to recap all you have is a 30 year record with no data to support anything before that data set. THAT is called science. You do not just get to fabricate information and claim it is data.

I see. Then you are totally ignorant of the attempts to find the Northwest Passage. And you believe that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Russians have all been illiterate for the last 500 years?

Retard. You do not get to fabricate data and claim it is scientific. And NO ONE spent the last 500 years constantly looking for a Northwest passage. But lets pretend they did, shall we? YOU claimed that there has NEVER been a clear enough passage in the ENTIRE HISTORY of man. No one was sailing into those regions in any numbers that left any data before 1700's. Your claim is false on its face. NO ONE knows what the arctic looked like before modern sailing vessels were constructed. And the only reason ships are trying passages now are because of satellite data that tells them what is clear and where.

From the mid 20's to the end of the 40's in the 1900's there was a stronger heating trend then NOW in the arctic. No one made any major effort to observe nor travel the arctic in any scientific manner to record the conditions each year during that heating trend. There were no satellites to record the data either.

Further currently UNDER the ice MAJOR volcanic activity is occurring. Again we only know this because of the state of our science NOW. No one knows what that activity was like in the past. The floor of the ocean is seeing major activity up there, down there or what ever direction you want to assign it.

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I see. Then you are totally ignorant of the attempts to find the Northwest Passage. And you believe that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Russians have all been illiterate for the last 500 years?

Retard. You do not get to fabricate data and claim it is scientific. And NO ONE spent the last 500 years constantly looking for a Northwest passage. But lets pretend they did, shall we? YOU claimed that there has NEVER been a clear enough passage in the ENTIRE HISTORY of man. No one was sailing into those regions in any numbers that left any data before 1700's. Your claim is false on its face. NO ONE knows what the arctic looked like before modern sailing vessels were constructed. And the only reason ships are trying passages now are because of satellite data that tells them what is clear and where.

From the mid 20's to the end of the 40's in the 1900's there was a stronger heating trend then NOW in the arctic. No one made any major effort to observe nor travel the arctic in any scientific manner to record the conditions each year during that heating trend. There were no satellites to record the data either.

Further currently UNDER the ice MAJOR volcanic activity is occurring. Again we only know this because of the state of our science NOW. No one knows what that activity was like in the past. The floor of the ocean is seeing major activity up there, down there or what ever direction you want to assign it.

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

There is no data dumb ass, that is the point. YOU claimed that in the entire HISTORY of man kind no large freighter had ever been able to sail through the arctic. You do not know that and there is no DATA to support that claim.

 

[mdn2000]

Hey, did you guys follow the links, seriously, this is a great debate by the TWINs, just look how smart they posted links, those are great links folks. I cannot come up with a link to trump their links, these guys are good.
I will get back to this thread as soon as I get my links lined up. Just wait until you see how my links make me look smarter than your links.

I wonder if all these Ice cubes at 7/11 are really artic ice some evil republican capitalist working for Bush is selling, damned Bush and halliburton are stealing artic ice to sell as ice cubes.

Good thread, twins, you boys sure know how to post links.

Of course you can. There are credible sources stateing that Artic Ice is not melting rapidly.

As for the rest of your drivel, the level of arguement one has come to expect from you.

Love you links, you twins do a great job, speaking of arguement, you run from many, like in geothermal where Old Crocks own source states geothermal is too expensive or in LOL where old crock used an article ten year old stating geothermal was cheap and the plant the article refered to never operated and lost calenergy 450 million dollars.

how about this, is this an example of drivel

I have worked in two steel mills. Both were fired with electricity. In fact, most melting of the primary source, ore or scrap, or any combination of those, are done in electric furnaces today.

http://www.stahlwerk-thueringen.de/files/File/2704_besu_engl.pdf

You know old crock, fuck off, its over and over with you, you post a source and do not read your own source, you worked in two all electric steel mills, bullshit. I was not going to look at this source but I knew you were nothing but a moron. Here I go again, I will qoute Old Crock's source, Old Crock's source describes the most modern steel plant in the world. Of course the first plant using this technology was built in the USA in Indiana by Nucor steel. No one else thought the "continous roll" process would work. Check out the book "American Steel".

Now to quote Old Crock's source, showing once again that Old Crock never reads his own sources which shows Old Crock has knows nothing about energy and even less about the fairy tale "green energy".

The smelting shop
The electric arc furnace is charged with two containers of recycled steel per cycle; the
furnace needs approx. 50 minutes to convert this material into 120 metric tons of
molten steel. The furnace works on the direct current electric arc furnace principle. An
electric arc is generated between a graphite electrode with a diameter of 750 mm and
the bottom of the furnace which functions as the anode. This energy, supplemented by
natural gas/oxygen burners, is used to smelt the scrap

Before rolling, the beam blanks - both our own as well as those from external suppliers
- are placed in a natural gas fired pusher furnace where they are heated to a temperature
of approximately 1,200 °C.

So there you have it, no iron smelting plant exists that uses only electricity, hence the fairy tale of green energy being sustainable in the future is pure fantasy.

Stupid ass, the steel is smelted with electricy, Doooodeeee....... said nothing at all about the reheat process that is done before the rolling.

The slabs are created using electricity, the slabs are later put into a reheat furnace to be heated to the correct rolling temperature for the rolling process.

Old Crock uses a source to back up Old Crocks lie that you smelt steel with only electricity, old crocks source says nope, you use natural gas and oxygen in the smelter.

 

[elvis]

I see. Then you are totally ignorant of the attempts to find the Northwest Passage. And you believe that the Norwegians, Swedes, and Russians have all been illiterate for the last 500 years?

Retard. You do not get to fabricate data and claim it is scientific. And NO ONE spent the last 500 years constantly looking for a Northwest passage. But lets pretend they did, shall we? YOU claimed that there has NEVER been a clear enough passage in the ENTIRE HISTORY of man. No one was sailing into those regions in any numbers that left any data before 1700's. Your claim is false on its face. NO ONE knows what the arctic looked like before modern sailing vessels were constructed. And the only reason ships are trying passages now are because of satellite data that tells them what is clear and where.

From the mid 20's to the end of the 40's in the 1900's there was a stronger heating trend then NOW in the arctic. No one made any major effort to observe nor travel the arctic in any scientific manner to record the conditions each year during that heating trend. There were no satellites to record the data either.

Further currently UNDER the ice MAJOR volcanic activity is occurring. Again we only know this because of the state of our science NOW. No one knows what that activity was like in the past. The floor of the ocean is seeing major activity up there, down there or what ever direction you want to assign it.

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

Yeah, he could have sited a socialist ecoterrorist BLOG, as you usually do, shitstain.

 

[mdn2000]

artic sea ice, is it melting or breaking, there really is a big difference, is the artic ice simply melting like an ice cube on a hot day or is it breaking apart.

Each link posted speaks of breaking ice with a theory that artic ice is melting causing the breaks.

I am pretty familiar with cracks so this is a subject my experience works right in to.

Where does ice crack, same place everything cracks at, weak points.

What causes weak points, in the case of artic ice a weak point is created in a warm year, thinner ice in a warm year is the weak point, the ice on either side of the warm year is thick, creating stress.

As large as the ice breaks have been is directly related to years, in this case the large ice breaks occur at years in which it was warm about 200 years ago. The weak point was created at a point in time that man had no impact on earth.

Like a glacier snow accumlation, in the coldest, middle spot on the artic, ice and snow push out with incredible force, you cannot have this force created if the snow in the center was melting, so much snow and ice are accumlating in the center that weak points created by the warm year broke off a huge chunk of a thicker, heavier, more recent ice and snow build-up.

enjoy the truth

I cant wait to see the twins post a link in response to wisdom

 

[Old Rocks]

Retard. You do not get to fabricate data and claim it is scientific. And NO ONE spent the last 500 years constantly looking for a Northwest passage. But lets pretend they did, shall we? YOU claimed that there has NEVER been a clear enough passage in the ENTIRE HISTORY of man. No one was sailing into those regions in any numbers that left any data before 1700's. Your claim is false on its face. NO ONE knows what the arctic looked like before modern sailing vessels were constructed. And the only reason ships are trying passages now are because of satellite data that tells them what is clear and where.

From the mid 20's to the end of the 40's in the 1900's there was a stronger heating trend then NOW in the arctic. No one made any major effort to observe nor travel the arctic in any scientific manner to record the conditions each year during that heating trend. There were no satellites to record the data either.

Further currently UNDER the ice MAJOR volcanic activity is occurring. Again we only know this because of the state of our science NOW. No one knows what that activity was like in the past. The floor of the ocean is seeing major activity up there, down there or what ever direction you want to assign it.

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

There is no data dumb ass, that is the point. YOU claimed that in the entire HISTORY of man kind no large freighter had ever been able to sail through the arctic. You do not know that and there is no DATA to support that claim.

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

 

[mdn2000]

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

There is no data dumb ass, that is the point. YOU claimed that in the entire HISTORY of man kind no large freighter had ever been able to sail through the arctic. You do not know that and there is no DATA to support that claim.

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

And where does Old Crock see Gny stating "large steel freightors", Old Crock you prove yourself incapable of reading comprehension.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Gunny, a lot of verbage, not a single link to any site to back up your yapping. So show me where all the data is for these things you claim. By the way, I do know exactly what you are refering to in all cases.

There is no data dumb ass, that is the point. YOU claimed that in the entire HISTORY of man kind no large freighter had ever been able to sail through the arctic. You do not know that and there is no DATA to support that claim.

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

YET you claimed that in all recorded human history one could not have sailed through the arctic like it did recently. THAT is not proven, you have absolutely no data to support the claim. You have no way to even speculate that what you posted is true. It is irrelevant that such ships did not exist before, in fact the very fact they did not exist indicates you could not have data to support your claim.

Is there any scientific data to show that in all recorded history no passage ever existed through the arctic? No there is not. Yet you claimed it is true. A bald faced LIE. Usual tactic of yours.

 

[Chris]

There is no data dumb ass, that is the point. YOU claimed that in the entire HISTORY of man kind no large freighter had ever been able to sail through the arctic. You do not know that and there is no DATA to support that claim.

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

YET you claimed that in all recorded human history one could not have sailed through the arctic like it did recently. THAT is not proven, you have absolutely no data to support the claim. You have no way to even speculate that what you posted is true. It is irrelevant that such ships did not exist before, in fact the very fact they did not exist indicates you could not have data to support your claim.

Is there any scientific data to show that in all recorded history no passage ever existed through the arctic? No there is not. Yet you claimed it is true. A bald faced LIE. Usual tactic of yours.

The arctic sea ice is melting in spite of the fact that the sun is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years.

And we have almost doubled atmospheric CO2 in the last 200 years.

 

[mdn2000]

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

YET you claimed that in all recorded human history one could not have sailed through the arctic like it did recently. THAT is not proven, you have absolutely no data to support the claim. You have no way to even speculate that what you posted is true. It is irrelevant that such ships did not exist before, in fact the very fact they did not exist indicates you could not have data to support your claim.

Is there any scientific data to show that in all recorded history no passage ever existed through the arctic? No there is not. Yet you claimed it is true. A bald faced LIE. Usual tactic of yours.

The arctic sea ice is melting in spite of the fact that the sun is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years.

And we have almost doubled atmospheric CO2 in the last 200 years.

Once again chrissy is right, the production of windmills, geothermal, and solar is utilizing the earths resources at a rate 10,000x's faster than fossil and nuclear energy.

The massive amounts of energy needed to produce extremely weak energy sources such as windmills, solar and geothermal has released into the atmosphere 100,000x's more CO2 than non-green energy sources.

The environuts have fallen hook, line, and sinker for the corporations huge taxpayer money grab.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Egad, once more we have a Conservative proving the stupidity of Conservatives

We have had large steel freightors for only a bit over a hundred years. In that time, there is no record of one using the Northwest or Northeast passage. Simple as that.

YET you claimed that in all recorded human history one could not have sailed through the arctic like it did recently. THAT is not proven, you have absolutely no data to support the claim. You have no way to even speculate that what you posted is true. It is irrelevant that such ships did not exist before, in fact the very fact they did not exist indicates you could not have data to support your claim.

Is there any scientific data to show that in all recorded history no passage ever existed through the arctic? No there is not. Yet you claimed it is true. A bald faced LIE. Usual tactic of yours.

The arctic sea ice is melting in spite of the fact that the sun is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years.

And we have almost doubled atmospheric CO2 in the last 200 years.

IF the ice is melting and so much of it is melting why has there been NO increase along any coast anywhere that is not the norm that it has been for the last 100 years? Where the hell did all the water go? It is not in the air, it is not in the ocean, where is it?

And Old Rocks made a statement of fact with out any data or evidence to back up his claim. He said that there has NEVER BEEN a passage through the arctic like there is now, IN ALL RECORDED HISTORY. He did not stipulate record ice taking history which is all of 30 years old, he stipulated in all mankinds recorded history. He does not know that, he can not prove that, he has no way to even speculate that such a statement is even true. It is a LIE.