Anti Corporatist/Authoritarian Coalition?

[WillowTree]

The first thing that must be done is a Balanced Budget Amendment.


nothing else matters.

Yeah... if we can find a way to make that work, definitely.

add term limits

 

[Oddball]

This tells me that the overlapping principles of the two parties are far more rooted in authoritarian power grabbing than in any other realm.

I think there are genuine libertarian values in both parties and we ought to be stoking those flames - rather than letting the partisan pissing match douse them.

But the libertarian values get tossed aside (if they are ever truly held) in favor of the power grabbing...And, as Hayek brilliantly pointed out, the more concentrated power that there is, the more you will attract those who see attaining and wielding that power as an end unto itself.

Why the Worst Get on Top

I think there's a "gravity" to the political process that promotes that ethos in both parties - people who want power naturally aspire to more and more of it. But I don't think authoritarianism is inherent in the views of either the left or the right. It's just that authoritarian ambitions, in the face of a passive defense of people's rights, tend to speak the loudest.

Just as the democratic statesman who sets out to plan economic life will soon be confronted with the alternative of either assuming dictatorial powers or abandoning his plans, so the totalitarian leader would soon have to choose between disregard of ordinary morals and failure. It is for this reason that the unscrupulous are likely to be more successful in a society tending toward totalitarianism. Who does not see this has not yet grasped the full width of the gulf which separates totalitarianism from the essentially individualist Western civilization.

The totalitarian leader must collect around him a group which is prepared voluntarily to submit to that discipline which they are to impose by force upon the rest of the people. That socialism can be put info practice only by methods which most socialists disapprove is, of course, a lesson learned by many social reformers in the past. The old socialist parties were inhibited by their democratic ideals; they did not possess the ruthlessness required for the performance of their chosen task. It is characteristic that both in Germany and in Italy the success of fascism was preceded by the refusal of the socialist parties to take over the responsibilities of government. They were unwilling wholeheartedly to employ the methods to which they had pointed the way. They still hoped for the miracle of a majority's agreeing on a particular plan for the organization of the whole of society. Others had already learned the lesson that in a planned society the question can no longer be on what do a majority of the people agree but what the largest single group is whose members agree sufficiently to make unified direction of all affairs possible.

The Road To Serfdom

 

[WillowTree]

The first thing that must be done is a Balanced Budget Amendment.


nothing else matters.

Yeah... if we can find a way to make that work, definitely.

One thing I've considered on that front would be really hard for conservatives to swallow. But it would be a very effective way to achieve their goal of smaller government and - in the net - lower taxes:
We should consider automatic, across the board tax increases to make the budget balance. In other words, we should pay for ALL the government we get. That would be painful at first, to be sure, but in the end it would make for far more honest democracy. When we actually see what it's costing us at the end of year, we might begin to reconsider whether we need that shiny new entitlement, or whether we really want our military spending billions protecting client nations.

I've long been on the record as favoring a fair flat tax. Everyone pays taxes, no execptions, no excuses no exemptions.

 

[mudwhistle]

If you want a solution to health care you need to get at it's root causes. Try instituting a national exercise program that's fun...like Volksmarching in Europe.

If you want to cut down on gasoline usage try getting rid of traffic lights and replace them with traffic-circles. That way nobody is sitting in traffic waiting at a red light half the day.

How about making it illegal for politicians to buy votes through entitlement programs.

Term limits. It works for the President....why not for everyone else?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It's frustrating to see so many lost opportunities for making the world, or at least our nation, a better place. I find considerable agreement from liberals, conservatives and libertarians on issues like curbing the war machine, protecting civil liberties, ending corporate welfare, ending the pointless drug war, pulling back on the police state - yet we remain locked in the phony left/right puppet show. All the while the authoritarians happily dominate the vested power structure.

It's time we find the common ground and save the fine points of ideology for later. Or we may find ourselves without a country to argue over.

In order for there to be common ground there must first be consensus as to what constitutes ‘corporatism’ and what is indeed ‘authoritarian.’

What constitutes necessary and proper government regulation to one is ‘authoritarianism’ to another; what constitutes ‘corporate welfare’ to one is appropriate public policy to another.

Too few Americans possess the pragmatism needed to seek out – and accept – that common ground.

 

[PredFan]

I wonder if we might compile, in this thread, a list of policy goals that we could all get behind, regardless of favored ideology (apart from the stated anti-coporatist/authoritarian theme).

I was inspired to start this thread after pondering how an issue like ending loopholes and tax incentives seems to draw wide support across party lines. So, I'll throw that out there as a starter.

What else is there?

As long as you keep the anti-corporate rhetoric and ignore other major problems, you are simply on the left only while pretending to be in the middle. You won't get the majority support you will need.

 

[PredFan]

It's frustrating to see so many lost opportunities for making the world, or at least our nation, a better place. I find considerable agreement from liberals, conservatives and libertarians on issues like curbing the war machine, protecting civil liberties, ending corporate welfare, ending the pointless drug war, pulling back on the police state - yet we remain locked in the phony left/right puppet show. All the while the authoritarians happily dominate the vested power structure.

It's time we find the common ground and save the fine points of ideology for later. Or we may find ourselves without a country to argue over.

I believe that this has far less to do with any real ideological bent and far more to do with clinging to party affiliation.

Republicans generally campaign on -among other things- fiscal restraint and curbing bureaucracy. Yet in the first six years of the Bush presidency, with a complicit congressional majority, spending levels quickly surpassed those of his "spendthrift liberal" predecessor. We also a got both a brand new cabinet-level bureaucracy, a total federal takeover of airport security, and a new entitlement (Medicare D).....Not a peep out of the party faithful.

Democrats generally campaign on -among other things- civil liberties issues and reigning in the military-industrial complex. Yet we now have a president and congress who have expanded existing wars, engaged in other military actions that are none of America's business. They have also actively supported and expanded the police/snoop state (USAPATRIOT, NDAA and the like), up to and including spying on our own citizens and summarily killing American citizens on foreign soil.....Not a peep out of the party faithful.

That's not do due to any philosophical ideology...That's blind party man allegiance.

Agreed. The problem is that many, like the OP, pretend to be in the middle yet are partisans themselves. I have yet to meet the person who actually is in the middle.

 

[Oddball]

It's frustrating to see so many lost opportunities for making the world, or at least our nation, a better place. I find considerable agreement from liberals, conservatives and libertarians on issues like curbing the war machine, protecting civil liberties, ending corporate welfare, ending the pointless drug war, pulling back on the police state - yet we remain locked in the phony left/right puppet show. All the while the authoritarians happily dominate the vested power structure.

It's time we find the common ground and save the fine points of ideology for later. Or we may find ourselves without a country to argue over.

In order for there to be common ground there must first be consensus as to what constitutes ‘corporatism’ and what is indeed ‘authoritarian.’

What constitutes necessary and proper government regulation to one is ‘authoritarianism’ to another; what constitutes ‘corporate welfare’ to one is appropriate public policy to another.

Too few Americans possess the pragmatism needed to seek out – and accept – that common ground.

The unspoken: "...except for pragmatists like me and those who think as do I."

And notice how quick he is to point out the nebulous nature of "corporate welfare" and "authoritarianism", yet doesn't hold the same yardstick to the equally unquantifiable notion of "pragmatism".

It's exactly this kind of mealy-mouthed semantic double talk and shell gaming that is the stock in trade of the authoritarian central planner.

 

[PredFan]

Campaign finance reform is touchy - there are genuine free speech issues to think about - but it's worth considering. Maybe once we get a list of ideas together we could do a poll or something.

Campaign finance (i.e. "public financing") is just another authoritarian power grab.

Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to respect the end goal at least - ending corporate dominance over politics. There are ways to achieve that that don't result in state control over our political activities.

This is where you will lose most people. You are stuck in the occupy wall street ignorance that the only problem with government is the eeeeevil corporations. There are much more powerful and influential entities pouring money into politics that you won't address. Until you are willing to compromise on your sacred cows, you won't get a lot of cooperation from the other side.

 

[Oddball]

It's frustrating to see so many lost opportunities for making the world, or at least our nation, a better place. I find considerable agreement from liberals, conservatives and libertarians on issues like curbing the war machine, protecting civil liberties, ending corporate welfare, ending the pointless drug war, pulling back on the police state - yet we remain locked in the phony left/right puppet show. All the while the authoritarians happily dominate the vested power structure.

It's time we find the common ground and save the fine points of ideology for later. Or we may find ourselves without a country to argue over.

I believe that this has far less to do with any real ideological bent and far more to do with clinging to party affiliation.

Republicans generally campaign on -among other things- fiscal restraint and curbing bureaucracy. Yet in the first six years of the Bush presidency, with a complicit congressional majority, spending levels quickly surpassed those of his "spendthrift liberal" predecessor. We also a got both a brand new cabinet-level bureaucracy, a total federal takeover of airport security, and a new entitlement (Medicare D).....Not a peep out of the party faithful.

Democrats generally campaign on -among other things- civil liberties issues and reigning in the military-industrial complex. Yet we now have a president and congress who have expanded existing wars, engaged in other military actions that are none of America's business. They have also actively supported and expanded the police/snoop state (USAPATRIOT, NDAA and the like), up to and including spying on our own citizens and summarily killing American citizens on foreign soil.....Not a peep out of the party faithful.

That's not do due to any philosophical ideology...That's blind party man allegiance.

Agreed. The problem is that many, like the OP, pretend to be in the middle yet are partisans themselves. I have yet to meet the person who actually is in the middle.

There is no middle ground between competing authoritarian mindsets....You're either an authoritarian central planner or you aren't.

 

[Oddball]

Campaign finance reform is touchy - there are genuine free speech issues to think about - but it's worth considering. Maybe once we get a list of ideas together we could do a poll or something.

Campaign finance (i.e. "public financing") is just another authoritarian power grab.

Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to respect the end goal at least - ending corporate dominance over politics. There are ways to achieve that that don't result in state control over our political activities.

Corporations are chartered by government...They are the created, not the creators.....They only do what their creators want them to do.

Corporations are only the capos...The holder of the monopoly on the proactive use of physical force (i.e. government) is the Godfather....Take away what they're selling and corporations have nothing to buy.

 

[dblack]

I wonder if we might compile, in this thread, a list of policy goals that we could all get behind, regardless of favored ideology (apart from the stated anti-coporatist/authoritarian theme).

I was inspired to start this thread after pondering how an issue like ending loopholes and tax incentives seems to draw wide support across party lines. So, I'll throw that out there as a starter.

What else is there?

As long as you keep the anti-corporate rhetoric and ignore other major problems, you are simply on the left only while pretending to be in the middle. You won't get the majority support you will need.

Anti-corporatist is not anti-corporate.

Corporatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dblack]

Agreed. The problem is that many, like the OP, pretend to be in the middle yet are partisans themselves. I have yet to meet the person who actually is in the middle.

I'm not pretending anything of the sort. I'm partisan Libertarian through and through. I'm merely pointing out the folly of ignoring opportunities to work with people who agree with us simply because they disagree on largely unrelated issues. If we can find common goals we should pursue them.

 

[dblack]

Campaign finance (i.e. "public financing") is just another authoritarian power grab.

Maybe, maybe not. I think you have to respect the end goal at least - ending corporate dominance over politics. There are ways to achieve that that don't result in state control over our political activities.

This is where you will lose most people. You are stuck in the occupy wall street ignorance that the only problem with government is the eeeeevil corporations. There are much more powerful and influential entities pouring money into politics that you won't address. Until you are willing to compromise on your sacred cows, you won't get a lot of cooperation from the other side.

You misinterpret my point of view. I'm opposed to corporate collusion with government - as well as the collusion with all the other power blocks and interest groups that goes on under the auspices of corporatist government. Seriously, check out that wikipedia article on corporatism before indulging your prejudices.

I'm not aligned with OWS - but I do find value in many of the things they are protesting. They recognize the corruption in corporations lobbying government for preferential treatment and bailouts. And if we can find agreement on that - and end the practice of government handing out favors in exchange for corporate support - then we should. Just because the OWSers might not recognize that the same thing is going on in the name of unions and other interest groups is no reason to count them as enemies.

 

[dblack]

In broad strokes, I'm looking to find coalition support for issues that cross party boundaries - yet aren't finding strong representation in either major party. Here's a starter list:

1. Pulling back on our "World Police" foreign policy and getting military spending under control.

2. Restraint on the growing police state. The is primarily expressed through the "Homeland Security" surveillance regime, and the "War on Drugs".

3. End corporate welfare. Many, but certainly not all, corporations have learned that the key to prosperity is in manipulating government policy to their own ends.

4. Reform the corrupt tax code. End the use of tax incentives/credits/deductions as means of controlling society.


... others?

 

[GuyPinestra]

In broad strokes, I'm looking to find coalition support for issues that cross party boundaries - yet aren't finding strong representation in either major party. Here's a starter list:

1. Pulling back on our "World Police" foreign policy and getting military spending under control.

2. Restraint on the growing police state. The is primarily expressed through the "Homeland Security" surveillance regime, and the "War on Drugs".

3. End corporate welfare. Many, but certainly not all, corporations have learned that the key to prosperity is in manipulating government policy to their own ends.

4. Reform the corrupt tax code. End the use of tax incentives/credits/deductions as means of controlling society.


... others?

Shit, those four are a 'life's work'. Accomplish those and everything else becomes child's play...

 

[dblack]

In broad strokes, I'm looking to find coalition support for issues that cross party boundaries - yet aren't finding strong representation in either major party. Here's a starter list:

1. Pulling back on our "World Police" foreign policy and getting military spending under control.

2. Restraint on the growing police state. The is primarily expressed through the "Homeland Security" surveillance regime, and the "War on Drugs".

3. End corporate welfare. Many, but certainly not all, corporations have learned that the key to prosperity is in manipulating government policy to their own ends.

4. Reform the corrupt tax code. End the use of tax incentives/credits/deductions as means of controlling society.


... others?

Shit, those four are a 'life's work'. Accomplish those and everything else becomes child's play...

Heh... indeed. But neither major party is addressing them at all. And we should be.

 

[GuyPinestra]

In broad strokes, I'm looking to find coalition support for issues that cross party boundaries - yet aren't finding strong representation in either major party. Here's a starter list:

1. Pulling back on our "World Police" foreign policy and getting military spending under control.

2. Restraint on the growing police state. The is primarily expressed through the "Homeland Security" surveillance regime, and the "War on Drugs".

3. End corporate welfare. Many, but certainly not all, corporations have learned that the key to prosperity is in manipulating government policy to their own ends.

4. Reform the corrupt tax code. End the use of tax incentives/credits/deductions as means of controlling society.


... others?

Shit, those four are a 'life's work'. Accomplish those and everything else becomes child's play...

Heh... indeed. But neither major party is addressing them at all. And we should be.

Party politics is the PROBLEM and always has been. Why do you think G. Washington was so adamantly opposed to it?

 

[occupied]

There is no longer any sizable common ground between the two parties, for whatever reason the democrats are the only ones who still have moderates. The republicans have chased off their moderate element and I do not see them walking back the raft of reckless ultimatums that comprise their current platform without voting a bunch of them out.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Cutting international welfare would be high on my list. There really is no justification for the billions of dollars we send overseas, much of it to countries that hate us and vote against us in the UN.

Getting out of the UN should be up there, too. We don't need an international panel of pantywaists trying to usurp our sovereignty.

Actually, foreign aid does benefit us, as does our membership in the UN.

Nonetheless, I do think we could and should cut some of it.

We should also cut the enormous military budget. As it is now, its 13 times bigger than the next largest.

In my opinion, we do not need to maintain the huge bases in friendly countries or in countries we previously were at war with.

Mittens/Rs do want and plan to put a lot more money into the military, enlarging it even more.

The fact is that we do have the money to support the issues that are the most important to us. WE ARE NOT BROKE. Not even close.

Name any culture or society at any time or place on our planet and you'll see that it ran in order to support the most wealthy. Its no different here and never has been.

Critics Still Wrong on What