Another "stand your ground" murder

[OohPooPahDoo]

I don't think his defence as stated will stand. A gun that isn't there is not a threat.

Yeah - but he says he thought he saw one - and they probably looked thuggish - so he should get off. No crime here. Move on.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I'll bet the usual rw's line up to say that loud music is a capital offense and that the killer was right to kill the kid.

You lose. Again.

Go back to school, learn to read and comprehend. Break the chains of yer' Liberal Conditioning.

He thought he saw a weapon. All he has to do is articulate that on the stand and he won't be charged.

He's already charged and jailed. After unloadiing 8 bullets into the SUV, Michael Dunn DROVE AWAY.

He has already shot off his mouth about the teens possibly being 'gang members'.

A gas station parking area is not where you Stand Your Ground. Don't like loud music? Drive away.

You don't completely unload your gun at kids, then drive away, then whine about the kind of kids you THOUGHT they were.

Michael Dunn is toast.

Regards from Rosie

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A caller to a talk show said that one of the kids pointed a shotgun at the shooter. The police found no weapon in the van. Apparently that was the shooter's defense. A piss poor one.

I was in a van once when we got pulled over by a cop because he thought he saw a gun. It turns out he saw an oar. Was that cop wrong to pull us over?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Shooting of Florida teen is no Trayvon Martin case, attorney says - CNN.com

Dunn told authorities that he had asked the teens to turn down the blaring music from their vehicle adjacent to his, as he waited for his girlfriend to return to the car.

Michael Dunn, 45, was denied bond earlier this week on the murder charge.


He heard threats from the teens, Dunn told police, he felt threatened and thought he saw a gun in the teens' car. He grabbed his gun and fired at least eight shots, authorities said.

Seventeen-year-old Jordan Davis, among the teens, was killed. There were no guns found inside the teens' car, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office said.

Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black Teen

His lawyer said that her client acted "responsibly and in self defense."

I'll bet the usual rw's line up to say that loud music is a capital offense and that the killer was right to kill the kid.

They'll be lining up to blame the victim, that's for sure. Any kind of prior offenses they have on their record - even if its just pot - will be plenty enough to justify their murder in the mind of the racists righties.

They who?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You lose. Again.

Go back to school, learn to read and comprehend. Break the chains of yer' Liberal Conditioning.

He thought he saw a weapon. All he has to do is articulate that on the stand and he won't be charged.

He's already charged and jailed. After unloadiing 8 bullets into the SUV, Michael Dunn DROVE AWAY.

He has already shot off his mouth about the teens possibly being 'gang members'.

A gas station parking area is not where you Stand Your Ground. Don't like loud music? Drive away.

You don't completely unload your gun at kids, then drive away, then whine about the kind of kids you THOUGHT they were.

Michael Dunn is toast.

Regards from Rosie

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

Actually, in most other states you do not have a duty to flee. In fact, California actually has more lenient self defense laws than Florida. In California George Martin probably would not even have been charged.

 

[9thIDdoc]

You lose. Again.

Go back to school, learn to read and comprehend. Break the chains of yer' Liberal Conditioning.

He thought he saw a weapon. All he has to do is articulate that on the stand and he won't be charged.

He's already charged and jailed. After unloadiing 8 bullets into the SUV, Michael Dunn DROVE AWAY.

He has already shot off his mouth about the teens possibly being 'gang members'.

A gas station parking area is not where you Stand Your Ground. Don't like loud music? Drive away.

You don't completely unload your gun at kids, then drive away, then whine about the kind of kids you THOUGHT they were.

Michael Dunn is toast.

Regards from Rosie

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

Really? There is no such "duty" in my State. Never has been. Only place I ever knew that had such an idiotic requirement was maybe one or two of those little states in the NE and nobody expects sanity from them anyway.

 

[Politico]

A gun that isn't there is not a threat.

I thought the same thing but according the rw's, we're both wrong.

Absolutely. You cannot open fire and then say that you thought you saw a gun.

So what you all are saying is if a mistake is made and there's no weapon the person should be charged with murder.

Answer the question.

 

[RosieS]

You lose. Again.

Go back to school, learn to read and comprehend. Break the chains of yer' Liberal Conditioning.

He thought he saw a weapon. All he has to do is articulate that on the stand and he won't be charged.

He's already charged and jailed. After unloadiing 8 bullets into the SUV, Michael Dunn DROVE AWAY.

He has already shot off his mouth about the teens possibly being 'gang members'.

A gas station parking area is not where you Stand Your Ground. Don't like loud music? Drive away.

You don't completely unload your gun at kids, then drive away, then whine about the kind of kids you THOUGHT they were.

Michael Dunn is toast.

Regards from Rosie

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

Text of the statute included here:

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-stand-your-ground-
statute.html


There was no threat of force against Dunn. You don't get to Stand Your Ground if the threat against you is a delusional one.

There is zilch justification for the use of deadly force - there was no forcible felony committed or even threatened against Dunn.

Michael Dunn is crumbly, charred burnt toast.

Regards from Rosie

 

[NoNukes]

"How can you support a law that leads to this?"

I wouldn't. What makes you think it did?

The guy thought he was being threatened and opened fire. This will probably happen a lot because of this law.

 

[NoNukes]

A caller to a talk show said that one of the kids pointed a shotgun at the shooter. The police found no weapon in the van. Apparently that was the shooter's defense. A piss poor one.

I was in a van once when we got pulled over by a cop because he thought he saw a gun. It turns out he saw an oar. Was that cop wrong to pull us over?

Did he put eight slugs in your van?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"How can you support a law that leads to this?"

I wouldn't. What makes you think it did?

The guy thought he was being threatened and opened fire. This will probably happen a lot because of this law.

No it won't.

 

[Barb]

He's already charged and jailed. After unloadiing 8 bullets into the SUV, Michael Dunn DROVE AWAY.

He has already shot off his mouth about the teens possibly being 'gang members'.

A gas station parking area is not where you Stand Your Ground. Don't like loud music? Drive away.

You don't completely unload your gun at kids, then drive away, then whine about the kind of kids you THOUGHT they were.

Michael Dunn is toast.

Regards from Rosie

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

Actually, in most other states you do not have a duty to flee. In fact, California actually has more lenient self defense laws than Florida. In California George Martin probably would not even have been charged.

California is not "most other states." Stand your ground is what it implies, and what set it apart from other laws, to wit: in most other states you DO have a duty to remove yourself from a situation that looks like it is escalating, if you are able to do so.

The whole law started out innocently enough, as a way to prevent domestic violence victims who managed to successfully defend themselves from being prosecuted for allowing themselves to be cornered. My late ex-husband threw a dining room table at me. The police wouldn't arrest him because I had the presence of mind to duck.

Go figure.

That said, it has become a tool for the defense in murder cases.

Go figure.

 

[Barb]

Odd, you normally consider me one of the "rw's".
And this incident doesn't actually have anything to do with the "Stand your ground" law which I support.

The guy's lawyer is using "stand your ground" as his defense.

Lawyers always raise every possible issue in defense of their client. Personally, I don't think it applies here, and I see no reason for the judge to even consider it. I don't know enough about Florida law to actually state whether it is actually necessary to hold a hearing simply because someone raises the issue, so I won't say anything about that specifically.

I do think the guy has a claim to self defense, and that the lack of a gun being found does not negate self defense automatically. I think he will have a very hard time actually proving it, but I think he has the right to raise the issue.

The only thing I see in the story that the lawyer said is that this is nothing like the Trayvon Martin case.

If not for that law, that issue wouldn't an available defense.

The lawyer is still using the same law to defend the client, and until someone uses the defense in a domestic violence case, it will not be applied for the reason it was crafted. Maybe it has...that wouldn't make national news though, would it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Florida "stand your ground" law applies ANYWHERE - there is no duty to flee, whatsoever. That's the point of the law. In most other states, when you are not in your own home, you have a first duty to flee from a potential deadly conflict, with deadly force only being allowed when fleeing is not a reasonable option.

Actually, in most other states you do not have a duty to flee. In fact, California actually has more lenient self defense laws than Florida. In California George Martin probably would not even have been charged.

California is not "most other states." Stand your ground is what it implies, and what set it apart from other laws, to wit: in most other states you DO have a duty to remove yourself from a situation that looks like it is escalating, if you are able to do so.

The whole law started out innocently enough, as a way to prevent domestic violence victims who managed to successfully defend themselves from being prosecuted for allowing themselves to be cornered. My late ex-husband threw a dining room table at me. The police wouldn't arrest him because I had the presence of mind to duck.

Go figure.

That said, it has become a tool for the defense in murder cases.

Go figure.

As far as I know there are only 5 states, and DC, that do not have Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws. Castle doctrine laws allow you to use deadly force even in your car. As far as I am concerned the state should have to prove that it wasn't self defense every time they accuse someone of murder.

As for the situation with your ex, they should have beat the crap out of him, then arrested him for assaulting their nightsticks.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"...and what set it apart from other laws, to wit: in most other states you DO have a duty to remove yourself from a situation that looks like it is escalating, if you are able to do so."

What other states? This statement was challenged when you made it before. How about some evidence or support.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The guy's lawyer is using "stand your ground" as his defense.

Lawyers always raise every possible issue in defense of their client. Personally, I don't think it applies here, and I see no reason for the judge to even consider it. I don't know enough about Florida law to actually state whether it is actually necessary to hold a hearing simply because someone raises the issue, so I won't say anything about that specifically.

I do think the guy has a claim to self defense, and that the lack of a gun being found does not negate self defense automatically. I think he will have a very hard time actually proving it, but I think he has the right to raise the issue.

The only thing I see in the story that the lawyer said is that this is nothing like the Trayvon Martin case.

If not for that law, that issue wouldn't an available defense.

The lawyer is still using the same law to defend the client, and until someone uses the defense in a domestic violence case, it will not be applied for the reason it was crafted. Maybe it has...that wouldn't make national news though, would it?

I posted a case about a woman who raised the stand your ground defense when she shot her husband who had a history of abuse, and a restraining order that prevented him from entering her apartment. Even though it was in Florida, and after the stand your ground law was passed, the judge refused to let he raise it at trial. She was found guilty, and I object to that. I want that judge fired, and her to be walking free.

If that means letting idiots like this raise the issue even when it isn't warranted, it is a small price to pay.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'll wait for more facts before making a judgement.

It could be he honestly thought he saw a gun and fired in self defense, or he could be a guy who got into a yelling match that escalated until he fired 8 shots into a car of unarmed teens.

I agree, we need more information, but eight shots is an awful lot. That doesn't sound like self defense to me; that sounds like rage.

How many shootings have you been involved with?
Standard tactic is to shoot until the threat is neutralized. Maybe it took 8 shots.

I dont know enough about this case to venture a judgement. As others have said, if he can articulate that he was under reasonable belief that he was in jeopardy of death or severe bodily harm he will walk away. If he can't, he won't.
But that's for a jury to decide.

I wonder what would have happened if he had been black or the kids white.

 

[The Rabbi]

Lawyers always raise every possible issue in defense of their client. Personally, I don't think it applies here, and I see no reason for the judge to even consider it. I don't know enough about Florida law to actually state whether it is actually necessary to hold a hearing simply because someone raises the issue, so I won't say anything about that specifically.

I do think the guy has a claim to self defense, and that the lack of a gun being found does not negate self defense automatically. I think he will have a very hard time actually proving it, but I think he has the right to raise the issue.

The only thing I see in the story that the lawyer said is that this is nothing like the Trayvon Martin case.

If not for that law, that issue wouldn't an available defense.

The lawyer is still using the same law to defend the client, and until someone uses the defense in a domestic violence case, it will not be applied for the reason it was crafted. Maybe it has...that wouldn't make national news though, would it?

I posted a case about a woman who raised the stand your ground defense when she shot her husband who had a history of abuse, and a restraining order that prevented him from entering her apartment. Even though it was in Florida, and after the stand your ground law was passed, the judge refused to let he raise it at trial. She was found guilty, and I object to that. I want that judge fired, and her to be walking free.

If that means letting idiots like this raise the issue even when it isn't warranted, it is a small price to pay.

You know youshould review the case before saying that. THe judge was right and the woman was rightfully convicted.

 

[Noomi]

I'll bet the usual rw's line up to say that loud music is a capital offense and that the killer was right to kill the kid.

You lose. Again.

Go back to school, learn to read and comprehend. Break the chains of yer' Liberal Conditioning.

He thought he saw a weapon. All he has to do is articulate that on the stand and he won't be charged.

If he gets off because he claims to have seen a gun, then doesn't that leave it open to others to shoot people and claim they also saw a weapon?

 

[Barb]

"...and what set it apart from other laws, to wit: in most other states you DO have a duty to remove yourself from a situation that looks like it is escalating, if you are able to do so."

What other states? This statement was challenged when you made it before. How about some evidence or support.

States That Have Stand Your Ground Laws - FindLaw

Many states have enacted “stand your ground” laws that remove the duty to retreat before using force in self-defense. The following is a list of states with stand your ground laws on the books. This list is limited to those states whose legislatures have gone through the process of enacting laws that specifically affirm an individual’s right to stand their ground when defending themselves against a threat. Other states may have adopted a stand your ground doctrine through judicial interpretation of their self-defense laws, but those states are not included in this list.

16 states on the list.