An Open Letter to our Resident Constitutionalist

[Grumblenuts]

What if the gays just prayed away all the True Believers one day?..

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

What if the gays just prayed away all the True BelierTvers one day?..

Pray away

What if the gays just prayed away all the True Believers one day?..

Pray away emilynghiem

 

[emilynghiem]

TheProgressivePatriot
Yes, because this whole issue itself involves people's beliefs, govt cannot be abused to force speech or how to write/legislate/enforce policies.

We'd all have to agree freely, not by force, how to resolve conflicts and write policies by consent/consensus.

Totally agree, and yes I have argued it is a matter of freedom of speech and press and right to petition NOT to restrict or control the process which prevents people from accessing and exercising natural rights.


These issues are so sensitive, just putting political pressure by judging others in the media and attacking people by partisan bullying imposes restrictions on the process by putting people on the defense.

Working with likeminded people from all parties can help set up an environment where we can talk freely, address the conflicts, and spell out both objections and solutions without those obstructions and impositions that are straining the communication and democratic process.

Thank you for articulating your position so well.

We need advocates like you across the various positions and then we can work out a policy plan to accommodate without compromise or conflict that infringes on anyone.

This will take work so thank you for persisting.

Your efforts and sincere dedication to a just solution will pay off and encourage others to work just as hard to settle these matters responsibly and ethically.
Thank you TheProgressivePatriot

You rock and I look forward to seeing the successful resolutions that come from working with you until consensus is reached.
Keep fighting the good fight.

We will all win together and win back our relationships and our country from the current state of disarray.

Have a super 2023 with maximum productivity and prosperity the multiplies in abundance.

Bless you and may you be uplifted and receive all the support and resources you need this year to achieve your highest goals and ideals.

Let me know the representative or party leaders/members to address in your district. Let's get this rolling out and invite all others to join the massive campaign to restore representation in public policy from political hijacking by partisan and media bullying we can overcome by direct communication to resolve conflicts ourselves by sharing the most sensible sustainable solutions that override all the other problems.

Let's do this!

Yours truly,
Emily In Houston TX

 

[Grumblenuts]

You rock and I look forward to seeing the successful resolutions that come from working with you until consensus is reached.
Keep fighting the good fight.

We will all win together and win back our relationships and our country from the current state of disarray.

Have a super 2023 with maximum productivity and prosperity the multiplies in abundance.

Bless you and may you be uplifted and receive all the support and resources you need this year to achieve your highest goals and ideals.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!

 

[miketx]

Dors the op ever talk about anything besides being a queer?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

TheProgressivePatriot
Yes, because this whole issue itself involves people's beliefs, govt cannot be abused to force speech or how to write/legislate/enforce policies.

We'd all have to agree freely, not by force, how to resolve conflicts and write policies by consent/consensus.

Totally agree, and yes I have argued it is a matter of freedom of speech and press and right to petition NOT to restrict or control the process which prevents people from accessing and exercising natural rights.


These issues are so sensitive, just putting political pressure by judging others in the media and attacking people by partisan bullying imposes restrictions on the process by putting people on the defense.

Working with likeminded people from all parties can help set up an environment where we can talk freely, address the conflicts, and spell out both objections and solutions without those obstructions and impositions that are straining the communication and democratic process.

Thank you for articulating your position so well.

We need advocates like you across the various positions and then we can work out a policy plan to accommodate without compromise or conflict that infringes on anyone.

This will take work so thank you for persisting.

Your efforts and sincere dedication to a just solution will pay off and encourage others to work just as hard to settle these matters responsibly and ethically.
Thank you TheProgressivePatriot

You rock and I look forward to seeing the successful resolutions that come from working with you until consensus is reached.
Keep fighting the good fight.

We will all win together and win back our relationships and our country from the current state of disarray.

Have a super 2023 with maximum productivity and prosperity the multiplies in abundance.

Bless you and may you be uplifted and receive all the support and resources you need this year to achieve your highest goals and ideals.

Let me know the representative or party leaders/members to address in your district. Let's get this rolling out and invite all others to join the massive campaign to restore representation in public policy from political hijacking by partisan and media bullying we can overcome by direct communication to resolve conflicts ourselves by sharing the most sensible sustainable solutions that override all the other problems.

Let's do this!

Yours truly,
Emily In Houston TX

Good grief! I have read through this latest screed at least three times in the hope that I would find something new that makes sense. Instead, it is just more of the same flowery, starry eyed, Kumbaya platitudes that bare no semblance to the real world

You speak eloquently of freedom and naturals rights but avoid any discussion of the ways in which certain groups have little or no regard for the rights and freedoms of others who they disapprove of.

You rail against “partisan bullying” the imposition of restrictions and putting people on the defensive. Yet you refuse to make any distinction between those who are the actual bullies and those who are the victims of that bullying. Implicit throughout your writing is the mindset that all factions are deserving of equal time and consideration, which is enabling the fascists and tyrants who would deprive others of their basic rights, including the very right to live. This despite the numerous times that I called you out on that point.

You prattle on about “Working with likeminded people from all parties can help set up an environment where we can talk freely, address the conflicts, and spell out both objections and solutions without those obstructions and impositions that are straining the communication and democratic process.” …....as though all of those who are not, and never will be like minded, are going to fade away into oblivion and leave the rest of us in peace to live as we wish and believe as we will. Your writing is wholly devoid of any real world solutions.

You speak of the need to accommodate all factions and find common ground but you have never once discussed how, or for that matter why, you can or should accommodate those who have no desire to accommodate others, but instead seek to make life miserable for them. Nor have you articulated what compromise would actually look like when encountering a group-who for instance- believe that members of certain other groups do not even have the right to exist.

You have never, ever spoken in support of the oppressed and marginalized, or condemned their tormentors, and for that you remain highly suspect, not only as an enabler but also as a sympathizer who is knowingly complicit.

Working to find common ground, when you are dealing with people of reason, and where there is common ground to be found is all well and good. But in todays polarized society where extremism is the norm, it should be public policy to use the full power of the law and the Constitution - including the courts- to level the playing field in order to ensure that social justice will prevail on behalf of the disadvantaged and maligned. That is where you seem to fall far short. I hope that you still think that I am articulating my position well. I do.

Your kind words in reference to my

“efforts and sincere dedication to a just solution”

are appreciated although I don’t know what, exactly you think that I am doing other that speaking out against bigotry and condemning the bigots and bullies- something that you are clearly mot doing

In addition, I xuxpect that you are being more than a little facetious with your compliments given the number of times that I excoriated you for your propensity for inventing problems with untenable solutions while ignoring the real problems and failing to offer and coherent or meaningful solutions. So, no, I will not be returning the compliment. And, I fail to grasp what your vision is for our working together since I have made it clear that I do not trust your motives regard any of your ideas as workable or even decipherable. We are not even sharing the same reality

Lastly, when you “invite all others to join the massive campaign to restore representation in public policy” be sure to include the Proud Boys and the Oath Keeps along with the ACLU and the Human Rights Campaign. Let me know how they all get along and what they find common ground on. Maybe the Oath Keepers will agree to not kill the gays and the gays will agree to slink back into the closet in exchange for their lives. Good luck!

Lets see what they can “ overcome by direct communication to resolve conflicts ourselves by sharing the most sensible sustainable solutions that override all the other problems" I have no idea at all what any of that would actually look like, and I’m not sure if you do either. “override all the other problems” ? Sure lady. Anyone can string poetic words together. Making it happen is another story.

Regards,
Matcha Chao in New Jersey

 

[emilynghiem]

Good grief! I have read through this latest screed at least three times in the hope that I would find something new that makes sense. Instead, it is just more of the same flowery, starry eyed, Kumbaya platitudes that bare no semblance to the real world

You speak eloquently of freedom and naturals rights but avoid any discussion of the ways in which certain groups have little or no regard for the rights and freedoms of others who they disapprove of.

You rail against “partisan bullying” the imposition of restrictions and putting people on the defensive. Yet you refuse to make any distinction between those who are the actual bullies and those who are the victims of that bullying. Implicit throughout your writing is the mindset that all factions are deserving of equal time and consideration, which is enabling the fascists and tyrants who would deprive others of their basic rights, including the very right to live. This despite the numerous times that I called you out on that point.

You prattle on about “Working with likeminded people from all parties can help set up an environment where we can talk freely, address the conflicts, and spell out both objections and solutions without those obstructions and impositions that are straining the communication and democratic process.” …....as though all of those who are not, and never will be like minded, are going to fade away into oblivion and leave the rest of us in peace to live as we wish and believe as we will. Your writing is wholly devoid of any real world solutions.

You speak of the need to accommodate all factions and find common ground but you have never once discussed how, or for that matter why, you can or should accommodate those who have no desire to accommodate others, but instead seek to make life miserable for them. Nor have you articulated what compromise would actually look like when encountering a group-who for instance- believe that members of certain other groups do not even have the right to exist.

You have never, ever spoken in support of the oppressed and marginalized, or condemned their tormentors, and for that you remain highly suspect, not only as an enabler but also as a sympathizer who is knowingly complicit.

Working to find common ground, when you are dealing with people of reason, and where there is common ground to be found is all well and good. But in todays polarized society where extremism is the norm, it should be public policy to use the full power of the law and the Constitution - including the courts- to level the playing field in order to ensure that social justice will prevail on behalf of the disadvantaged and maligned. That is where you seem to fall far short. I hope that you still think that I am articulating my position well. I do.

Your kind words in reference to my

“efforts and sincere dedication to a just solution”

are appreciated although I don’t know what, exactly you think that I am doing other that speaking out against bigotry and condemning the bigots and bullies- something that you are clearly mot doing

In addition, I xuxpect that you are being more than a little facetious with your compliments given the number of times that I excoriated you for your propensity for inventing problems with untenable solutions while ignoring the real problems and failing to offer and coherent or meaningful solutions. So, no, I will not be returning the compliment. And, I fail to grasp what your vision is for our working together since I have made it clear that I do not trust your motives regard any of your ideas as workable or even decipherable. We are not even sharing the same reality

Lastly, when you “invite all others to join the massive campaign to restore representation in public policy” be sure to include the Proud Boys and the Oath Keeps along with the ACLU and the Human Rights Campaign. Let me know how they all get along and what they find common ground on. Maybe the Oath Keepers will agree to not kill the gays and the gays will agree to slink back into the closet in exchange for their lives. Good luck!

Lets see what they can “ overcome by direct communication to resolve conflicts ourselves by sharing the most sensible sustainable solutions that override all the other problems" I have no idea at all what any of that would actually look like, and I’m not sure if you do either. “override all the other problems” ? Sure lady. Anyone can string poetic words together. Making it happen is another story.

Regards,
Matcha Chao in New Jersey

Dear TheProgressivePatriot
The problem is trying to enforce "the Golden Rule" is best done by teaching by example not preaching and not "legislating the problem away."

That is as self defeating as trying to "pray away the gay" or "telling criminals to quit committing crimes during the pandemic and wait until after".

We have to address the root problem, and it's a mutual process, it isn't a one way deal "where I'm right and you're the group causing the issues that needs to change."

The best way to address the mutual grievances is to bring the parties together and agree on the process.

TheProgressivePatriot You are not going to agree to changes and reforms unless you get what you require out of the deal.

Well, same with the other sides which are actually 3-5 not two.

This process of collaborating between parties IS to compel the various sides to "respect the rights beliefs and interests / requirements of others Equally as our own".

The Golden Rule applied to Constitutional rights and protections.

The way to enforce this is to embody Equal Justice in our relationships and apply and teach by direct example.

This is how to inspire and compel others to respect our rights by respecting theirs and ours equally. Then the serious people who understand this is a mutual commitment will join the effort .

And together we raise the standard to equal justice inclusively.

Do you understand that preaching and legislating by force isn't the same as establishing standards and policy by agreeing to respect equal rights and protections for each other directly?

The problem you bring up has to be addressed to even set up the collaborative council. Only the people serious about this, and I assume you are equally serious and committed as I am, will agree to represent themselves and their party at the round table for the purpose of establishing policy by fully informed consent and mutually agreed solutions.


Anyone who can't or wont respect rights and beliefs equally will stay away from the process because they don't believe it can be done without compromises that are unacceptable.

The only people left communicating are the ones who won't leave the table until the conflicts are resolved and we have a sustainable solution and policy plan that we agree is workable.

 

[emilynghiem]

Good grief! I have read through this latest screed at least three times in the hope that I would find something new that makes sense. Instead, it is just more of the same flowery, starry eyed, Kumbaya platitudes that bare no semblance to the real world

You speak eloquently of freedom and naturals rights but avoid any discussion of the ways in which certain groups have little or no regard for the rights and freedoms of others who they disapprove of.

You rail against “partisan bullying” the imposition of restrictions and putting people on the defensive. Yet you refuse to make any distinction between those who are the actual bullies and those who are the victims of that bullying. Implicit throughout your writing is the mindset that all factions are deserving of equal time and consideration, which is enabling the fascists and tyrants who would deprive others of their basic rights, including the very right to live. This despite the numerous times that I called you out on that point.

You prattle on about “Working with likeminded people from all parties can help set up an environment where we can talk freely, address the conflicts, and spell out both objections and solutions without those obstructions and impositions that are straining the communication and democratic process.” …....as though all of those who are not, and never will be like minded, are going to fade away into oblivion and leave the rest of us in peace to live as we wish and believe as we will. Your writing is wholly devoid of any real world solutions.

You speak of the need to accommodate all factions and find common ground but you have never once discussed how, or for that matter why, you can or should accommodate those who have no desire to accommodate others, but instead seek to make life miserable for them. Nor have you articulated what compromise would actually look like when encountering a group-who for instance- believe that members of certain other groups do not even have the right to exist.

You have never, ever spoken in support of the oppressed and marginalized, or condemned their tormentors, and for that you remain highly suspect, not only as an enabler but also as a sympathizer who is knowingly complicit.

Working to find common ground, when you are dealing with people of reason, and where there is common ground to be found is all well and good. But in todays polarized society where extremism is the norm, it should be public policy to use the full power of the law and the Constitution - including the courts- to level the playing field in order to ensure that social justice will prevail on behalf of the disadvantaged and maligned. That is where you seem to fall far short. I hope that you still think that I am articulating my position well. I do.

Your kind words in reference to my

“efforts and sincere dedication to a just solution”

are appreciated although I don’t know what, exactly you think that I am doing other that speaking out against bigotry and condemning the bigots and bullies- something that you are clearly mot doing

In addition, I xuxpect that you are being more than a little facetious with your compliments given the number of times that I excoriated you for your propensity for inventing problems with untenable solutions while ignoring the real problems and failing to offer and coherent or meaningful solutions. So, no, I will not be returning the compliment. And, I fail to grasp what your vision is for our working together since I have made it clear that I do not trust your motives regard any of your ideas as workable or even decipherable. We are not even sharing the same reality

Lastly, when you “invite all others to join the massive campaign to restore representation in public policy” be sure to include the Proud Boys and the Oath Keeps along with the ACLU and the Human Rights Campaign. Let me know how they all get along and what they find common ground on. Maybe the Oath Keepers will agree to not kill the gays and the gays will agree to slink back into the closet in exchange for their lives. Good luck!

Lets see what they can “ overcome by direct communication to resolve conflicts ourselves by sharing the most sensible sustainable solutions that override all the other problems" I have no idea at all what any of that would actually look like, and I’m not sure if you do either. “override all the other problems” ? Sure lady. Anyone can string poetic words together. Making it happen is another story.

Regards,
Matcha Chao in New Jersey

Thank you @Matcha Chao

1. If people still have issues of bigotry and holding parties to account for past or current bullying and oppression/abuse issues, those need to be addressed and resolved BEFORE trying to negotiate long-term solutions. Marriage counseling is done in several steps. If the parties are still angry and injured, that needs to be resolved first. Before trying to talk about estate, custody or legal/financial settlement issues.

I appear to be "skipping that step" because I already know groups that can handle counseling and resolving those preliminarily issues. Groups like the Center for the Healing of Racism and Alternatives to Violence Project USA have that process down. I would refer people and parties to them and their programs that can walk and talk people through those first stages where the wounds and injuries of racial abuse and violence are still causing PTSD and backlash.

Seriously, that can take 2-5 years to resolve similar to the grief process before people can talk through the objective long-term solutions that can take another 5 years.

I've been on this board since 2009 and only now are we getting to this point of talking about communicating for long-term solutions. Previously most of the talk was the early preliminary stages of venting blame back and forth to clear the air, and establish respect for where each person is coming from. That is a necessary part of the full recovery and reparations process.

Not everyone is at the same stage.

Some of us here are ahead of the game because we've been interacting on this level for years. If we can take on the challenge and conflicts of taking this to the next level, then this will compel and encourage others to resolve the initial first reactions and rejection/objections stages of expressing the blame and grievances causing the mutual distrust, and ask for more help to get to the stage where we can address and resolve the actual issues. TheProgressivePatriot still has his list of points and objectives that have to be addressed to move forward. Even posting the equivalent of the "95 theses" to me and Constitutionalists to address. If we all do that, we can host a conference and address each other's lists of what we need to see answered, corrected and reformed.


2. When we have the people and parties prepared to present and address each other's lists of policy issues or objections and grievances, then we can organize which people need to work with which groups.

A. Some people still want the personal and emotional closure as part of their process of communicating and establishing good faith relations.

B. Some people are past that and ready to jump into solutions and work with likeminded people ready to invest directly in change and reforms we can replicate based on proven models and programs already well established


If you want examples of those, I can list several per area

1. For universal sustainable health care at Medicare pricing that can be done by community ownership and management or by federal clinics working together: www.tbt.org already set up a community run hospital in Houston and is developing the next hospital in Dallas in a predominantly minority Latino/African American district

2. To finance reparations for Native and African American ownership of land to be restored, I would use a combination of the APV Campus Plans www.campusplan.org and RICO laws providing property as restitution to victims and communities affected by drug and human trafficking, including the prison system itself by which wrongfully incarcerated person's who can prove their innocence can claim up to 80K per year depending on state laws which can be invested in owning, training and managing land, business and school development and self govt per district.

3. for abuses of party and media to "conspire to violate" civil rights of others, the redirected use of both party structures/process and media can be used to redress these grievances and promote solutions as above for taxpayers to invest in and or demand reimbursement of past taxes or donations to parties to be used to finance these preferred solutions.

MC, I cannot dictate or regulate which people of which parties are in what stage of grief recovery, or negotiations for long-term solutions and restitution/corrections for which problems.


But I trust the various Parties and Programs that have been working on these issues to help delegate and organize which leaders and which donors are best for each area to be addressed.


If your focus is on addressing the bigotry, yes, we need a team just for that.

I ask you to make your own list of what you need to see addressed and resolved.

Let's form a team around you, and ask others to do the same for their own list of agenda and priorities.


If we use social media to organize this, then likeminded people with the same interests can connect. When we identify the groups that have working solutions to each point or problem, then all the people collecting around the same priorities can better organize resources and implement solutions as a team.


I believe the bigotry will get resolved in the process. Because all the people blaming other groups for the bigotry will have to address and resolve that to get to the solutions they all want. I trust the people and process will work itself out.


People want what we want.

So if there are these barriers in the way, they have to come down so we can get our goals accomplished.

What do you want to achieve?

What are the barriers?

What do you need to form a team to build your ideal solutions where the support is sustainable?

 

[emilynghiem]

What if the gays just prayed away all the True Believers one day?..

This is simpler than you think, but easier said than done. By agreeing to separate the parties from each other as religious organizations and denominations.

If we agree that we cannot mix tax dollars of prolife with prochoice, or pro vax with anti vax, that's half the battle

Recognizing the Golden Rule applies, and if the anti death penalty people don't want tax dollars they pay to go toward war or killing people, then we should apply the same laws that anti abortion people use to defund clinics or birth control they don't believe in supporting either.

First step is to agree to "respect each other's rights and beliefs equally" as a choice to fund or defund without abusing political or govt force to impose on others with opposing beliefs.

Second step is to agree which model programs best enable separation of funding before we can change tax laws or agree to restitution plans to pay back taxpayers for past govt or corporate abuses of tax resources and re invest in policies and programs those Taxpayers consent to support with our labor, donations investments loans or taxes or tax credits etc.

Sometimes people have to see there is a working solution before they agree to respect each other's rights.

Sometimes they have to agree to forgive and let go of the animosity causing the mutual distrust before they can see the working solutions are viable choices.

I cannot predict or control what order people need to go through their own process to resolve all the barriers in the way.

Praying to remove the cause of obstruction is one step, but the causes may not be what we think they are.

Usually the barriers are mutual.

For everything we think the other person or group needs to change, there is something of equal calibre and effort that needs to change on our side of the equation. So the effort is mutual and both sides end up giving and taking equally to both get what they require out of the process.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The problem is trying to enforce "the Golden Rule" is best done by teaching by example not preaching and not "legislating the problem away."

That is as self defeating as trying to "pray away the gay" or "telling criminals to quit committing crimes during the pandemic and wait until after".

You have gotten to be way too much work and it all seems to be for naught. Nothing that I have said seems to sink in. It all just seems to roll right off of your back .The best that I can say for you is that you are stubbornly resilient.

I started out thinking that you were just painfully naïve. Then, as I have said, began to think that you have a nefarious motive..... that of defending and protecting bigots-and I have not abandoned that theory. But this golden rule that you keep invoking most certainly points to a degree of naiveté.

Teach by example? Let's cut the crap and get real here. Tell how you will teach the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers by example. The golden rule only works if there is a chance of it being reciprocated. These hard core far right bigots are not going to reciprocate!! I can only conclude that your “teach by example “ approach is, at best unrealistic, and at worst, a dishonest and deceptive attempt to coddle and enable the bigots by elevating them to equal status with those who they seek to oppress - which you have indicated a willingness to do many times.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

We have to address the root problem, and it's a mutual process, it isn't a one way deal "where I'm right and you're the group causing the issues that needs to change."

The root problem is fear, ignorance and the bigotry that is born of it. And the bigots need to change or be kicked to the curb and it is doubtful that they will change. When you have one group who wish to oppress, marginalize and punish others simply because they disapprove of them.......and when that group who they seek to oppress poses no objective threat....when they just want to live in people and have the same rights as others the choice is clear. It damned sure is a “ one way deal” It is crystal clear who is right and who is wrong. Would you take that same approach if the subject were Nazis vs. Jews in 1939, or for that matter now? What about the KKK vs. Blacks? Is there no situation where one side is clearly wrong in your mind?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The best way to address the mutual grievances is to bring the parties together and agree on the process.

I previously asked you what you think that the Oath Keepers and the Gay Community could possibly agree to. Crickets

I am still waiting for you to clearly and unequivocally condemn bigotry and hate , and to voice a full throated support of oppressed minorities. I am pretty sure that will not happen.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

You are not going to agree to changes and reforms unless you get what you require out of the deal.

Well, same with the other sides which are actually 3-5 not two.

This process of collaborating between parties IS to compel the various sides to "respect the rights beliefs and interests / requirements of others Equally as our own".

I am losing patience with you. I will not respect the beliefs and interests of the bigots. Apparently you do. And while they may have a right to hate, they do not have a right to express that hate in a way that harms others

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The Golden Rule applied to Constitutional rights and protections.

The way to enforce this is to embody Equal Justice in our relationships and apply and teach by direct example.

This is how to inspire and compel others to respect our rights by respecting theirs and ours equally. Then the serious people who understand this is a mutual commitment will join the effort .

More of the same nonsense, Tell me again how you are going to get the bigots to respect our rights by respecting theirs. Even if we were to somehow respect then, that does not mean that they will respect us ( Note: I am not including you in “we” and “us”)

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

And together we raise the standard to equal justice inclusively.

Do you understand that preaching and legislating by force isn't the same as establishing standards and policy by agreeing to respect equal rights and protections for each other directly?

The problem you bring up has to be addressed to even set up the collaborative council. Only the people serious about this, and I assume you are equally serious and committed as I am, will agree to represent themselves and their party at the round table for the purpose of establishing policy by fully informed consent and mutually agreed solutions.


Anyone who can't or wont respect rights and beliefs equally will stay away from the process because they don't believe it can be done without compromises that are unacceptable.

The only people left communicating are the ones who won't leave the table until the conflicts are resolved and we have a sustainable solution and policy plan that we agree is workable.

More of the same blather. You make little to no sense. You are not living in the real world . There are unreasonable people who can’t be reasoned with. They will not participate in your nonsensical “collaborative councils “ and will subvert and disrupt any efforts to establish social justice .

I have trouble believing that you don’t understand that.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Nothing that I have said seems to sink in. It all just seems to roll right off of your back .The best that I can say for you is that you are stubbornly resilient.

And you're assuming that the problem is with a sane person, who sees your madness and evil for what it very clearly is, and is not persuaded by your antics to join you in agreeing with any of it.

Could it be that the real problem is you, that you hold beliefs and opinions that are just so crazy, so immoral, and so repugnant to any sane, decent person, that no one is going to be persuaded by any of your bullshit?

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Thank you @Matcha Chao

1. If people still have issues of bigotry and holding parties to account for past or current bullying and oppression/abuse issues, those need to be addressed and resolved BEFORE trying to negotiate long-term solutions. Marriage counseling is done in several steps. If the parties are still angry and injured, that needs to be resolved first. Before trying to talk about estate, custody or legal/financial settlement issues.

I appear to be "skipping that step" because I already know groups that can handle counseling and resolving those preliminarily issues. Groups like the Center for the Healing of Racism and Alternatives to Violence Project USA have that process down. I would refer people and parties to them and their programs that can walk and talk people through those first stages where the wounds and injuries of racial abuse and violence are still causing PTSD and backlash.

Seriously, that can take 2-5 years to resolve similar to the grief process before people can talk through the objective long-term solutions that can take another 5 years.

I've been on this board since 2009 and only now are we getting to this point of talking about communicating for long-term solutions. Previously most of the talk was the early preliminary stages of venting blame back and forth to clear the air, and establish respect for where each person is coming from. That is a necessary part of the full recovery and reparations process.

Not everyone is at the same stage.

Some of us here are ahead of the game because we've been interacting on this level for years. If we can take on the challenge and conflicts of taking this to the next level, then this will compel and encourage others to resolve the initial first reactions and rejection/objections stages of expressing the blame and grievances causing the mutual distrust, and ask for more help to get to the stage where we can address and resolve the actual issues. TheProgressivePatriot still has his list of points and objectives that have to be addressed to move forward. Even posting the equivalent of the "95 theses" to me and Constitutionalists to address. If we all do that, we can host a conference and address each other's lists of what we need to see answered, corrected and reformed.


2. When we have the people and parties prepared to present and address each other's lists of policy issues or objections and grievances, then we can organize which people need to work with which groups.

A. Some people still want the personal and emotional closure as part of their process of communicating and establishing good faith relations.

B. Some people are past that and ready to jump into solutions and work with likeminded people ready to invest directly in change and reforms we can replicate based on proven models and programs already well established


If you want examples of those, I can list several per area

1. For universal sustainable health care at Medicare pricing that can be done by community ownership and management or by federal clinics working together: www.tbt.org already set up a community run hospital in Houston and is developing the next hospital in Dallas in a predominantly minority Latino/African American district

2. To finance reparations for Native and African American ownership of land to be restored, I would use a combination of the APV Campus Plans www.campusplan.org and RICO laws providing property as restitution to victims and communities affected by drug and human trafficking, including the prison system itself by which wrongfully incarcerated person's who can prove their innocence can claim up to 80K per year depending on state laws which can be invested in owning, training and managing land, business and school development and self govt per district.

3. for abuses of party and media to "conspire to violate" civil rights of others, the redirected use of both party structures/process and media can be used to redress these grievances and promote solutions as above for taxpayers to invest in and or demand reimbursement of past taxes or donations to parties to be used to finance these preferred solutions.

MC, I cannot dictate or regulate which people of which parties are in what stage of grief recovery, or negotiations for long-term solutions and restitution/corrections for which problems.


But I trust the various Parties and Programs that have been working on these issues to help delegate and organize which leaders and which donors are best for each area to be addressed.


If your focus is on addressing the bigotry, yes, we need a team just for that.

I ask you to make your own list of what you need to see addressed and resolved.

Let's form a team around you, and ask others to do the same for their own list of agenda and priorities.


If we use social media to organize this, then likeminded people with the same interests can connect. When we identify the groups that have working solutions to each point or problem, then all the people collecting around the same priorities can better organize resources and implement solutions as a team.


I believe the bigotry will get resolved in the process. Because all the people blaming other groups for the bigotry will have to address and resolve that to get to the solutions they all want. I trust the people and process will work itself out.


People want what we want.

So if there are these barriers in the way, they have to come down so we can get our goals accomplished.

What do you want to achieve?

What are the barriers?

What do you need to form a team to build your ideal solutions where the support is sustainable?

You have decended deep into Gish Gallop land. Not doing this any more

 

[The Duke]

Thank you for that well thought out and articulate response to an imortant and complex constitutional issue . Clearly you must have advanced degrees from the finest institutions of higher learning n fiels such as constitutional law, psycholog, sociology and human sexuality. Please keep sharing ypu brilliant pearls of wisdom. You raise the bar on the level of intelectual discourse on the USMB! God bless you!

How about you stop trying to pervert the Constitution with your bullshit, hmm?

200+ years, and then here comes your faggot ass that thinks he knows better. GFY with that.

Yeah, you don't. The End.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You have gotten to be way too much work and it all seems to be for naught. Nothing that I have said seems to sink in. It all just seems to roll right off of your back .The best that I can say for you is that you are stubbornly resilient.

I started out thinking that you were just painfully naïve. Then, as I have said, began to think that you have a nefarious motive..... that of defending and protecting bigots-and I have not abandoned that theory. But this golden rule that you keep invoking most certainly points to a degree of naiveté.

Teach by example? Let's cut the crap and get real here. Tell how you will teach the Proud Boys or the Oath Keepers by example. The golden rule only works if there is a chance of it being reciprocated. These hard core far right bigots are not going to reciprocate!! I can only conclude that your “teach by example “ approach is, at best unrealistic, and at worst, a dishonest and deceptive attempt to coddle and enable the bigots by elevating them to equal status with those who they seek to oppress - which you have indicated a willingness to do many times.

The root problem is fear, ignorance and the bigotry that is born of it. And the bigots need to change or be kicked to the curb and it is doubtful that they will change. When you have one group who wish to oppress, marginalize and punish others simply because they disapprove of them.......and when that group who they seek to oppress poses no objective threat....when they just want to live in people and have the same rights as others the choice is clear. It damned sure is a “ one way deal” It is crystal clear who is right and who is wrong. Would you take that same approach if the subject were Nazis vs. Jews in 1939, or for that matter now? What about the KKK vs. Blacks? Is there no situation where one side is clearly wrong in your mind?

I previously asked you what you think that the Oath Keepers and the Gay Community could possibly agree to. Crickets

I am still waiting for you to clearly and unequivocally condemn bigotry and hate , and to voice a full throated support of oppressed minorities. I am pretty sure that will not happen.

I am losing patience with you. I will not respect the beliefs and interests of the bigots. Apparently you do. And while they may have a right to hate, they do not have a right to express that hate in a way that harms others

More of the same nonsense, Tell me again how you are going to get the bigots to respect our rights by respecting theirs. Even if we were to somehow respect then, that does not mean that they will respect us ( Note: I am not including you in “we” and “us”)

More of the same blather. You make little to no sense. You are not living in the real world . There are unreasonable people who can’t be reasoned with. They will not participate in your nonsensical “collaborative councils “ and will subvert and disrupt any efforts to establish social justice .

I have trouble believing that you don’t understand that.

 

[Grumblenuts]

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