America's Most Endangered River

[marvin martian]

The drought has been a contributor to the lowering of Lake Meade, Powell and the Colorado River to be sure. But the major contributor has been the expansion of building and agriculture throughout the Southwest most notably California. There is also a LOT of wasted water, commercial buildings with GRASS LAWNS (WHY?) watered every day. Sometimes you can see the water running into the streets. Watering of the thousands of golf courses. This is a huge problem and I see no plan by the Southwestern states to do anything about it.

China wants their almonds, and Gavin Newsom doesn't give two shits what it does to the people of California.

 

[odanny]

Correct. Which is why it would morph into taking water from rivers and not based upon flooding events. Which would be violently opposed by several groups.

We can agree that we are entering a new era, at least in the West, of a paradigm shift in how we use water. Hate to say it, but those almond trees in California are going to have to die, growing almonds are too water intensive. Monoculture agriculture is not good, anyway, and it's proven that having a multitude of crops (versus only one) can still bring produce in times of drought, while others don't make it. We have to change the way we do business.

 

[petro]

I see a lot of pipe dreams...
Pun intended.

None of which would meet the approval of the environmentalists. It would be years of legal challenges
and cost over runs.
A project like the Hoover Dam wouldn't even be approved in today's political world.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I can't locate it now, but I saw an excellent side by side of Lake Meade shrinking as Las Vegas was growing short video

 

[ding]

We can agree that we are entering a new era, at least in the West, of a paradigm shift in how we use water. Hate to say it, but those almond trees in California are going to have to die, growing almonds are too water intensive. Monoculture agriculture is not good, anyway, and it's proven that having a multitude of crops (versus only one) can still bring produce in times of drought, while others don't make it. We have to change the way we do business.

That may well be true. Only time will tell. Just as time told us that CO2 does not drive earth's climate and will remind us again with colder temperatures.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Las Vegas, believe it or not, has been doing something about it. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's something.

yea they are doing something....building about 15 000 new houses.....

 

[odanny]

WASHINGTON — After months of fruitless negotiations between the states that depend on the shrinking Colorado River, the Biden administration on Tuesday proposed to put aside legal precedent and save what’s left of the river by evenly cutting water allotments, reducing the water delivered to California, Arizona and Nevada by as much as one-quarter.

The size of those reductions and the prospect of the federal government unilaterally imposing them on states have never occurred in American history.

Overuse and a 23-year-long drought made worse by climate change have threatened to provoke a water and power catastrophe across the West. The Colorado River supplies drinking water to 40 million Americans as well as two states in Mexico, and irrigates 5.5 million agricultural acres. The electricity generated by dams on the river’s two main reservoirs, Lake Mead and Lake Powell, powers millions of homes and businesses.

But the river’s flows have recently fallen by one-third compared with historical averages. Levels in Lake Mead and Lake Powell are so low that water may soon fail to turn the turbines that generate electricity — and could even fall to the point that water is unable to reach the intake valves that control its flow out of the reservoirs. If that happened, the river would essentially stop moving.

The Biden administration is desperately trying to prevent that situation, known as deadpool. But it faces a political and ethical dilemma: How to divvy up the cuts required.

The Interior Department, which manages the river, released a draft analysis Tuesday that considered three options.

The first alternative was taking no action — a path that would risk deadpool. The other two options are making reductions based on the most senior water rights, or evenly distributing them across Arizona, California and Nevada, by reducing water deliveries by as much as 13 percent beyond what each state has already agreed to.

If changes were based on seniority of water rights, California, which among the seven states is the largest and oldest user of Colorado River water, would mostly be spared. But that would greatly harm Nevada and force disastrous reductions on Arizona: the aqueduct that carries drinking water to Phoenix and Tucson would be reduced almost to zero.

“Those are consequences that we would not allow to happen,” Tommy Beaudreau, the deputy secretary for the Interior Department, said in an interview on Monday.

Biden Administration Proposes Evenly Cutting Water Allotments From Colorado River

As the river shrinks, the Biden administration is getting ready to impose, for the first time, reductions in water supplies to states.

www.nytimes.com

 

[MarathonMike]

WASHINGTON — After months of fruitless negotiations between the states that depend on the shrinking Colorado River, the Biden administration on Tuesday proposed to put aside legal precedent and save what’s left of the river by evenly cutting water allotments, reducing the water delivered to California, Arizona and Nevada by as much as one-quarter.

The size of those reductions and the prospect of the federal government unilaterally imposing them on states have never occurred in American history.

Overuse and a 23-year-long drought made worse by climate change have threatened to provoke a water and power catastrophe across the West. The Colorado River supplies drinking water to 40 million Americans as well as two states in Mexico, and irrigates 5.5 million agricultural acres. The electricity generated by dams on the river’s two main reservoirs, Lake Mead and Lake Powell, powers millions of homes and businesses.

But the river’s flows have recently fallen by one-third compared with historical averages. Levels in Lake Mead and Lake Powell are so low that water may soon fail to turn the turbines that generate electricity — and could even fall to the point that water is unable to reach the intake valves that control its flow out of the reservoirs. If that happened, the river would essentially stop moving.

The Biden administration is desperately trying to prevent that situation, known as deadpool. But it faces a political and ethical dilemma: How to divvy up the cuts required.

The Interior Department, which manages the river, released a draft analysis Tuesday that considered three options.

The first alternative was taking no action — a path that would risk deadpool. The other two options are making reductions based on the most senior water rights, or evenly distributing them across Arizona, California and Nevada, by reducing water deliveries by as much as 13 percent beyond what each state has already agreed to.

If changes were based on seniority of water rights, California, which among the seven states is the largest and oldest user of Colorado River water, would mostly be spared. But that would greatly harm Nevada and force disastrous reductions on Arizona: the aqueduct that carries drinking water to Phoenix and Tucson would be reduced almost to zero.

“Those are consequences that we would not allow to happen,” Tommy Beaudreau, the deputy secretary for the Interior Department, said in an interview on Monday.

Biden Administration Proposes Evenly Cutting Water Allotments From Colorado River

As the river shrinks, the Biden administration is getting ready to impose, for the first time, reductions in water supplies to states.

www.nytimes.com

As an Arizona resident I've been following the Colorado River Basin debacle for years. I will reserve my applause for the Biden administration until I see the HARD NUMBERS for EACH STATE in terms of reduction. We are already conserving water in Tucson. Phoenix still over consumes and under conserves. California is a disgrace. They are essentially the same as China when it comes to air pollution. By far the worst offender and so far not held accountable AT ALL.

 

[odanny]

Their problem can be fixed, at least temporarily, if California were forced to end some of their antiquated farming practices, they are growing some of the most water intensive crops you can. They are living in the past.

 

[MarathonMike]

Their problem can be fixed, at least temporarily, if California were forced to end some of their antiquated farming practices, they are growing some of the most water intensive crops you can. They are living in the past.

I agree 100%. But it needs to be more than a temporary fix. All the states that feed off of the Colorado River need to step up and start doing real conservation. Tucson has a very aggressive rain harvesting program where they give a significant tax credit to you if you install a rain harvesting system. I put in a 1500 gallon tank last year and we capture an additional 500 gallons with other receptacles. We also need to find alternative feed for the cattle industry because Alfafa takes an enormous amount of water. And I will piss off many of my Conservative friends but I think there needs to be more red meat alternatives. Some of them are pretty darn good imo.

 

[Oddball]

Nearly 200% snowpack in the Rockies this winter.

 

[Oddball]

I agree 100%. But it needs to be more than a temporary fix. All the states that feed off of the Colorado River need to step up and start doing real conservation. Tucson has a very aggressive rain harvesting program where they give a significant tax credit to you if you install a rain harvesting system. I put in a 1500 gallon tank last year and we capture an additional 500 gallons with other receptacles. We also need to find alternative feed for the cattle industry because Alfafa takes an enormous amount of water. And I will piss off many of my Conservative friends but I think there needs to be more red meat alternatives. Some of them are pretty darn good imo.

The central valley feeds off of Sierra Nevada snow.

 

[ReinyDays]

Their problem can be fixed, at least temporarily, if California were forced to end some of their antiquated farming practices, they are growing some of the most water intensive crops you can. They are living in the past.

This is easy to say from a place that grows nothing but corn for animal feed ... farmers in the Midwest can't change, new combine heads are expensive, and a farmer needs a different one for each crop ... does a corn seed drill even work with tomatoes, or onions ... you live there, ask around, see why farmers there don't grow anything but animal food ...

Oddball's mostly right ... California's Central Valley gets their water from the Sierras, only the Imperial Valley gets irrigation water from the Colorado ... and, yeah, they were there first, water shortages are Arizona's problem ... it was Arizona's legislature who allowed developers to build homes where there is no water ... these homes we're talking about don't have water service, folks have to haul it in from neighboring communities, and this is by design ... what was Arizona thinking inviting all those millions of people in? ... it's the people in Phoenix, not farmers in Red Bluff ...

Plenty of water in California ... what's in short supply is inexpensive water ...

 

[martybegan]

I've been saying this before, we build oil pipelines that run across the country, why not do the same with water? Imagine if there was a transport mode for taking floodwaters and connecting them to the Lake Powell or Lake Mead pipelines?

You can tell this person has zero Engineering knowledge. First, it wouldn't be an aqueduct, it would be a force main, because you would have to pump this water. And assuming a flow of 3 meters/sec as a standard, the "pipe" would have to be 32 FEET in diameter.

The pumps required would be massive and many, with stations along the line.

 

[Crick]

You can tell this person has zero Engineering knowledge. First, it wouldn't be an aqueduct, it would be a force main, because you would have to pump this water. And assuming a flow of 3 meters/sec as a standard, the "pipe" would have to be 32 FEET in diameter.

The pumps required would be massive and many, with stations along the line.

Piece a' cake...

Ionize the water and then use superconducting magnets to drive it along the pipe at, say, 100 mps and then the pipe'd only have to be 3 feet across. Easy-peasy! ; - )

 

[Crick]

Piece a' cake...

Ionize the water and then use superconducting magnets to drive it along the pipe at, say, 100 mps and then the pipe'd only have to be 3 feet across. Easy-peasy! ; - )

Or even get it up to lightspeed. Then the pipe would only have to be 33 nanometers across.

We had a problem in fluid dynamics 101 where we were looking at a pipe somewhere in South America (Peru?) that was carrying water down from the mountains to the coast. It was about 3 feet across and coming down many thousands of feet. I don't remember the actual numbers but the shutoff valve was going to take, like, a full minute to close and we were to calculate the water hammer. None of us were expecting much, but it turned out it would have blown the pipe to smithereens. Cool...

 

[martybegan]

Piece a' cake...

Ionize the water and then use superconducting magnets to drive it along the pipe at, say, 100 mps and then the pipe'd only have to be 3 feet across. Easy-peasy! ; - )

In 2130 maybe, but we are talking 2023-2030 technology.

 

[Crick]

In 2130 maybe, but we are talking 2023-2030 technology.

I think we'll probably have matter transmitters before that would be practical. There is a ship propulsion technology - it appeared in Hunt for Red October - that was only useful because it eliminated screw/blade signals: magnetohydrodynamic drive (MHD). Incoming water is ionized by a powerful electric field and then driven out the stern by an electromagnetic field. Of course, you still have to make the electricity and MHD requires a lot. Wouldn't run long off a battery and making it with a nuke plant requires coolant pumps, turbines, condensate pumps, lube oil pumps, etc.

 

[martybegan]

I think we'll probably have matter transmitters before that would be practical. There is a ship propulsion technology - it appeared in Hunt for Red October - that was only useful because it eliminated screw/blade signals: magnetohydrodynamic drive (MHD). Incoming water is ionized by a powerful electric field and then driven out the stern by an electromagnetic field. Of course, you still have to make the electricity and MHD requires a lot. Wouldn't run long off a battery and making it with a nuke plant requires coolant pumps, turbines, condensate pumps, lube oil pumps, etc.

You know that book is fiction, right?

And in the book it's just a bunch of impellers, not MHD.

Simply put this would be a trillion dollar project. and would require massive amounts of concrete, digging, pumps, switchgear and electricity to work.

 

[Crick]

You know that book is fiction, right?

And in the book it's just a bunch of impellers, not MHD.

Mea culpa. In the book it was a caterpillar drive with impellers. In the movie, it was an MHD drive. See How did the caterpillar drive in âThe Hunt For Red Octoberâ work?.

Simply put this would be a trillion dollar project. and would require massive amounts of concrete, digging, pumps, switchgear and electricity to work.

Oh yes. I have been kidding all along. The only technologically practical way to move that much water is with a canal and the cost and drawbacks are still enormous.