“America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.

[Bulletbob]

“America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.

As many of you know there is a rift in American culture that exists between mostly a small percentage of religious Americans who happen to be mostly whitehave a certain chronic demand that we all accept that America was founded as a “Christian Nation.” and non-Christians

Although a large majority of practicing Christians are complacent or non- supportive regarding this religious national identity issue it constantly comes up as a thorn in the side of political discourse resulting in breakdown upon breakdown whenever religion is part of a political discussion.

So, thanks to input from Andylusion, a self identified Christian who brought to my attention what John Adams had to say as if he were commenting on this issue today. Was America founded as a Christian?

Here is an excerpt from what he wrote to his friend and Fellow founding father.

​

Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists, and Protestants “qui ne croyent rien.” Very few, however, of several of these species; nevertheless, all educated in the general principles of Christianity, and the general principles of English and American liberty.​

​

* Protestants “qui ne croyent rien.” supposedly refers to Protestants who believe in nothing.​

I‘m suggesting we follow the wisdom and advice from John Adams and all believers and non-believers alike and accept a phrase commemorating America’s religious identity read as follows:

“America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” which includes every law abiding belief system in between.

AGREE? DISAGREE? SUGGESTIONS?

yea I guess that whole in god we trust thing on our money was Atheist

here read this

The Role of Religion in America's Founding

Think America's founding was strictly a secular development? Dr. Daniel Dreisbach offers evidence for the role of religion in America's founding.

tifwe.org

.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was first placed on coins largely during the Civil War.

NotfooledbyW, post: 25817570 to 25817434 to 25708701

yea I guess that whole in god we trust thing on our money was Atheist

here read this

The Role of Religion in America's Founding

Think America's founding was strictly a secular development? Dr. Daniel Dreisbach offers evidence for the role of religion in America's founding.

tifwe.org

Are you of the opinion that America was founded by President Lincoln during the Civil War?

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War.

History of 'In God We Trust'

This thread is about refuting or confirming whether or not America was founded as a Christian Nation.

I’m saying it was not. You provide a link about a motto on coins placed there 75 years after James Madison, a Christian of sorts, steered the founding of America to be a secular institution for governing a white Protestant Christian dominated society.

Where is you case against mine if you are taking the white Christian nationalist side?

 

[Bulletbob]

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was first placed on coins largely during the Civil War.

NotfooledbyW, post: 25817570 to 25817434 to 25708701

yea I guess that whole in god we trust thing on our money was Atheist

here read this

The Role of Religion in America's Founding

Think America's founding was strictly a secular development? Dr. Daniel Dreisbach offers evidence for the role of religion in America's founding.

tifwe.org

Are you of the opinion that America was founded by President Lincoln during the Civil War?

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War.

History of 'In God We Trust'

This thread is about refuting or confirming whether or not America was founded as a Christian Nation.

I’m saying it was not. You provide a link about a motto on coins placed there 75 years after James Madison, a Christian of sorts, steered the founding of America to be a secular institution for governing a white Protestant Christian dominated society.

Where is you case against mine if you are taking the white Christian nationalist side?

The usa has always been a Christian nation with Christian morals and ethics .

 

[Correll]

You yourself already stated that religion is between a man and God, and now you are claiming that only Christians who were formally members of a formal church, should be counted as Christians.

I’m saying you can’t really count beyond Church affiliation. So you don’t know as a matter of fact when you say there was a massive Christian majority in 1790 America.

So quit lying as if you know.

That is an interesting claim. So there is no other way to measure a population other than by formal Church Affiliation?

Perhaps you only think that, because you are too stupid to think of any other ways of getting information.

.

My point stands.

Perhaps you only think that, because you are too stupid to think of any other ways of getting information.

.
where's yours - claiming u s is founded as a christian nation ...

* none exist but keep lying someone might believe you someday.

Speak clear. I'm done trying to guess your fucking points. DO YOU WANT SOMETHING FROM ME? DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION? DO YOU HAVE A FUCKING POINT, YOU BRAINLESS MORON?

.

Speak clear. I'm done trying to guess your fucking points. DO YOU WANT SOMETHING FROM ME? DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION? DO YOU HAVE A FUCKING POINT, YOU BRAINLESS MORON?

where's yours - claiming u s is founded as a christian nation ...

* none exist but keep lying someone might believe you someday.

.
does screaming make you feel like that helps to conceal your deceit and contempt for the truth this country is and was founded as a secular republic for all people to live their own lives as they see fit and not by the constraints of a religious fanatic. corel.

most people that correspond here made it through grade school, corel and have learned to control their temper tantrums on a public forum.

find something better to read than your christian bible if you care ever to become an adult.

I disagree with your spin on the Founding or the nature of what "no establishment of religion" means.

.

I disagree with your spin on the Founding or the nature of what "no establishment of religion" means.

.
there is no spin, it means what it says ... that's all there is.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yep. NOthing about being "neutral", just not setting up an Established Church.

Your claim of "neutral" was you making up shit.

Putting "in god we trust" on the money was not being "neutral" but it also did not abridge the freedom of any religious minority that does not believe in "God" to practice their religion.

 

[Correll]

Correll, post: 25813800

I disagree with your spin on the Founding or the nature of what "no establishment of religion" means.

BreezeWood, post: 25814495

there is no spin, it means what it says ... that's all there is.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Nothing in the text of the Constitution establishes America as a Christian Nation. You’ve been trying to make a case that there was a massive Christian majority when that document was being written. And you say that majority is what made America a Christian nation.

That is nutzo because the entire population did not ‘found’ a nation. But what’s worse for you than that is there is no way you can know that there was a Christian majority living on American soil over two hundred years ago. Yet you base your quest to force me to accept your white Christian nationalist nonsense that America was founded as a Christian nation based on nothing but your imaginary original Christian majority. What makes you think you should get away with that?

I think you are confused because white male dominated Protestant Christianity was, its true, the dominant religion in the British colonies and western settlements.

The dominance was not due to the majority of the population being card carrying Christians. The dominance came from the state sponsored churches, prior to tge disestablishment era that came with the Revolution and the ratification of the Constitution. Then, independent mostly Protestant institutions continued and took over dominating the culture with only one in five of the population being Parishioners in 1776.

So your majority basis for your Christian Nation is not true. That means you can’t put non-Christians in your Christian group as you’ve been saying.

(1)There was no verifiable Christian majority in 1790 America.

(2) I am not an institution. I am not a minority part of a group of religious institutions.

(3) The Constitution is clear. No religious institution was ever to involuntarily dominate an individual citizen’s mind after 1791.

Your arguments are sunk.

1. So, you seem to be finally getting the distinction between the nation and the government. That is good. I imagine though that you will deny it, to keep that argument available for reuse as per the lib tactic of circular debating.

2. Interesting that you are claiming that, "there is no way to know what the religion of the people were" at that time period. The majority of settlement came from the UK at that time. What other religions do you imagine might have become the majority of the population and then just happened to die down by the time of better records?

3. I have been clear that this, imo, is a Christian Nation that embraces and respects the religious freedoms of all it's citizens, including it's non-Christian minorities. So, your point 3 does not matter in this debate.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

America is apparently a hocus pocus nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25818552 to 25817745

The usa has always been a Christian nation with Christian morals and ethics .

Based on what Christian morals and ethics?

What about Christian doctrine? Do you believe in original sin; salvation through Jesus Christ; the Holy Trinity etc etc.....

Any American citizen can have morals and ethics much closer to the supposed teachings of a Jesus Christ (love thy enemy) Rather than have the morals and ethics of a Donald Trump (boink a porn star whilst thy wife is home nursing thy newborn son).

The uniqueness of being Christian I thought is faithfully and fully believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ and that he becomes one’s personal savior from original sin; which may buy one a ticket into heaven and save one from the wretched eternal torment of burning in hell.

I don’t see the Constitution of the United States of America holding the slightest whiff of a tiny hint that one single American citizen need have one tiny whiff of one tiny hint of that Christian belief system if in what Jefferson considered to be the hocus pocus of madmen having nothing to do with the morals and ethics of a normal human being named Jesus and all the great religious of the world.

Can you explain how your “Christian Nation” works in a nation set free of believing in the actual hocus pocus of one the world’s most dominant religions.

 

[Bulletbob]

America is apparently a hocus pocus nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25818552 to 25817745

The usa has always been a Christian nation with Christian morals and ethics .

Based on what Christian morals and ethics?

What about Christian doctrine? Do you believe in original sin; salvation through Jesus Christ; the Holy Trinity etc etc.....

Any American citizen can have morals and ethics much closer to the supposed teachings of a Jesus Christ (love thy enemy) Rather than have the morals and ethics of a Donald Trump (boink a porn star whilst thy wife is home nursing thy newborn son).

The uniqueness of being Christian ✝ I thought is faithfully and fully believing in the divinity of Jesus Christ and that he becomes one’s personal savior from original sin; which may buy one a ticket into heaven and save one from the wretched eternal torment of burning in hell.

I don’t see the Constitution of the United States of America holding the slightest whiff of a tiny hint that one single American citizen need have one tiny whiff of one tiny hint of that Christian belief system if in what Jefferson considered to be the hocus pocus of madmen having nothing to do with the morals and ethics of a normal human being named Jesus and all the great religious of the world.

Can you explain how your “Christian Nation” works in a nation set free of believing in the actual hocus pocus of one the world’s most dominant religions.

then you are blind

 

[NotfooledbyW]

America is apparently a hocus pocus nation - 25818552 to 25817745 - NotfooledbyW, post: 25819910 to 25819444

then you are blind

If you can’t answer questions - don’t reply with idiotic nonsense that is a lie. I’m not blind to the facts.


I’ll ask again:

Q1 Do you believe in original sin; salvation through Jesus Christ; the Holy Trinity etc etc..?

Q2 Based on what Christian morals and ethics? What about Christian doctrine?

Q3 Can you explain how your “Christian Nation” works in a nation set free of believing in the actual hocus pocus of one the world’s most dominant religions?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Nothing in the text of the Constitution establishes America as a Christian Nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25820903 to 25818373 (1)

1. So, you seem to be finally getting the distinction between the nation and the government. That is good. I imagine though that you will deny it, to keep that argument available for reuse as per the lib tactic of circular debating.

You are a liar. Go to my post “America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.
There is no reference to the distinction between the nation and the government in my post. I never failed to get the distinction anyway. You are distracting from the fact that your claim that America had a massive majority of Christians in 1789 is a lie. It’s a lie - a bold faced lie. And now you lie about a circular argument. When do your lies stop.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The majority of settlement came from the UK at that time - Trump the 1st and last American Christian King - NotfooledbyW, post: 25824484 to 25818373 (2)

2. Interesting that you are claiming that, "there is no way to know what the religion of the people were" at that time period. The majority of settlement came from the UK at that time.

You say, They came mostly from the UK. Thats true, but where in Christian theology or doctrine does it teach that ‘coming from the U.K.’ makes one a Christian?

I said you are confused in Post 25817419 - “I think you are confused because white male dominated Protestant Christianity was, its true, the dominant religion in the British colonies and western settlements.

The dominance was not due to the majority of the population being card carrying Christians. The dominance came from the state sponsored churches, prior to the disestablishment era that came with the Revolution and the ratification of the Constitution.”

Christian religion exported from the UK at that time included, per Wikipedia: The divine right of kings, divine right, or God's mandate is a political and religious doctrine of political legitimacy in a monarchy.

The 18th Century settlers from the UK were witnesses to a major transformation of Christianity which was impacted by European Enlightenment and the American Revolution.

If you think you can nail down the firm religious beliefs of unaffiliated persons during that century you are a fool.

You have seen this:
“ Church Membership In America Percentage of population that belongs to a church: 1776 17% 1850 34 1860 37 1870 35 1890 45 1906 51 1916 53 1926 56 1952 59 1980 62 1995 65* *Estimated. Source: "The Churching of America: 1776-1990" by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark and Gallup Organization data“

What data do you have that clarifies that the 83% that were not affiliated with any church were in a private and personal relationship with Jesus Christ and believed that Jesus Christ died on the cross to save them from the Christian doctrine of original sin?

Just admit you are guessing. So when you present it as a fact you are lying.

The majority of settlement came from the UK at that time - Correll 25818373 (2)

2. What other religions do you imagine might have become the majority of the population and then just happened to die down by the time of better records?

Why are you so dense? My data does not show a “die down” of church membership.

the baseline is 1776 and church membership rose steadily ever since.

It is what it is.

Percentage of population that belongs to a church: 1776 17% 1850 34 1860 37 1870 35 1890 45 1906 51 1916 53 1926 56 1952 59 1980 62 1995 65*

the author of that chart says, “But most colonial Americans probably were more likely to be found in the local tavern on Saturday night than in church on Sunday, said Rodney Stark, professor of sociology and comparative religion at the University of Washington.”

You want to tell me that America was founded as a Christian Nation. What you don’t want is to be forced to define exactly what kind of Christian Nation we supposedly were in 1787.

I’m saying, for those who were recorded as churched, it was a white male dominated Protestant, sin and salvation, Christianity. They were in groups that were in themselves intolerant to Catholics and Jews and intolerant to non-Christian beliefs in any form. For most of the 18th Century the churched Colonist masses believed in a Christian nation that had a King who was ordained to rule the earth in Jesus’ name.

So that has to be what white Protestant Christian Nationalists deep down inside want.

Trump is their king. Trump will be deposed tomorrow.

Cultural white European Christianity under divine rule on earth will never have the power it had under Trump the 1st and last.

True Americans and patriots if all creeds and non/beliefs shall celebrate a great victory when the Cultural Christian King goes back to being a tv clown and con man.

 

[Correll]

Nothing in the text of the Constitution establishes America as a Christian Nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25820903 to 25818373 (1)

1. So, you seem to be finally getting the distinction between the nation and the government. That is good. I imagine though that you will deny it, to keep that argument available for reuse as per the lib tactic of circular debating.

You are a liar. Go to my post “America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.
There is no reference to the distinction between the nation and the government in my post. I never failed to get the distinction anyway. You are distracting from the fact that your claim that America had a massive majority of Christians in 1789 is a lie. It’s a lie - a bold faced lie. And now you lie about a circular argument. When do your lies stop.

Thanks for immediately proving my point about your dishonest use of the dishonest tactic of circular debating.


You conflated government and nation constantly for weeks. Your denial of that is not only a lie, but such a stupid lie, that you have to either be retarded to tell it, or intend to fool people who ARE retarded.


IMO, you are not retarded, but you want to convince any possible readers who might be retarded that your side is the right side.


That you think only retards can be convinced to join your side, makes me wonder about your self image.


Why are you holding to a position and world view and ideology that is so bad, that only retarded people can be tricked into thinking it is a good thing?

 

[Correll]

So that has to be what white Protestant Christian Nationalists deep down inside want.

Trump is their king. Trump will be deposed tomorrow

So that is what this is about to you? Even if Trump loses tomorrow, Christians and Whites will still both be overlapping majorities in this nation and will still want their interests represented in national policy.


For that NOT to be the case, you need to drive them from the public square.

How would you do that? Naked force?


Mmm, maybe if you invent bullshit accusations that every time they voice an opinion or advocate a policy that they are being Evul or something, you can gin up a mob and drive them from the public square and marginalize them and you can have everything your way.



Like I pointed out was your goal, weeks ago, and you denied it.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

For that NOT to be the case, you need to drive them from the public square.

You are a liar. I have stated my full Welcome and gratitude for the white evangelical Christian Trump cult to participate fully in the public square. That is where their lies and revisionist history is best refuted.

when Trump goes down all his lies and hate mongering and revisionist history and fake economics goes down with it.

when you go into the public square don’t expect your lies to win the day unless you have the vast majority of the voting public believing them.

Trump and his white evangelical Christian got to close about a 33 percent threshold but the electoral college system magnified their power.

it’s good the elderly and young have seen enough and will help put a stop to this Trump nonsense.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Nothing in the text of the Constitution establishes America as a Christian Nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25820903 to 25818373 (1)

1. So, you seem to be finally getting the distinction between the nation and the government. That is good. I imagine though that you will deny it, to keep that argument available for reuse as per the lib tactic of circular debating.

You are a liar. Go to my post “America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.
There is no reference to the distinction between the nation and the government in my post. I never failed to get the distinction anyway. You are distracting from the fact that your claim that America had a massive majority of Christians in 1789 is a lie. It’s a lie - a bold faced lie. And now you lie about a circular argument. When do your lies stop.

Thanks for immediately proving my point about your dishonest use of the dishonest tactic of circular debating.


You conflated government and nation constantly for weeks. Your denial of that is not only a lie, but such a stupid lie, that you have to either be retarded to tell it, or intend to fool people who ARE retarded.


IMO, you are not retarded, but you want to convince any possible readers who might be retarded that your side is the right side.


That you think only retards can be convinced to join your side, makes me wonder about your self image.


Why are you holding to a position and world view and ideology that is so bad, that only retarded people can be tricked into thinking it is a good thing?

Have you ever tried to put forth a counter point based on facts and relevance to mine?

I don’t think so. You entire MO is to disrupt every point with whining over process while ignoring substance.

you are a fraud - that much is clear.

 

[Correll]

For that NOT to be the case, you need to drive them from the public square.

You are a liar. I have stated my full Welcome and gratitude for the white evangelical Christian Trump cult to participate fully in the public square. That is where their lies and revisionist history is best refuted.

when Trump goes down all his lies and hate mongering and revisionist history and fake economics goes down with it.

when you go into the public square don’t expect your lies to win the day unless you have the vast majority of the voting public believing them.

Trump and his white evangelical Christian got to close about a 33 percent threshold but the electoral college system magnified their power.

it’s good the elderly and young have seen enough and will help put a stop to this Trump nonsense.

You "state" it, but your assertion is contradicted by shit like,

"
intolerant to Catholics and Jews and intolerant to non-Christian beliefs in any form. For most of the 18th Century the churched Colonist masses believed in a Christian nation that had a King who was ordained to rule the earth in Jesus’ name.

So that has to be what white Protestant Christian Nationalists deep down inside want.

Trump is their king. Trump will be deposed tomorrow.

Cultural white European Christianity under divine rule on earth will never have the power it had under Trump the 1st and last. "




That is not a reasoned loyal opposition to a President and his supporters about the best way to move US forward as a nation.


That is pure anti-Christian Bigotry and anti-white racism.

 

[Correll]

Nothing in the text of the Constitution establishes America as a Christian Nation - NotfooledbyW, post: 25820903 to 25818373 (1)

1. So, you seem to be finally getting the distinction between the nation and the government. That is good. I imagine though that you will deny it, to keep that argument available for reuse as per the lib tactic of circular debating.

You are a liar. Go to my post “America was founded as an Atheist and Christian Nation” 21st Century sin & salvation Christian agrees with Unitarian Deist John Adams.
There is no reference to the distinction between the nation and the government in my post. I never failed to get the distinction anyway. You are distracting from the fact that your claim that America had a massive majority of Christians in 1789 is a lie. It’s a lie - a bold faced lie. And now you lie about a circular argument. When do your lies stop.

Thanks for immediately proving my point about your dishonest use of the dishonest tactic of circular debating.


You conflated government and nation constantly for weeks. Your denial of that is not only a lie, but such a stupid lie, that you have to either be retarded to tell it, or intend to fool people who ARE retarded.


IMO, you are not retarded, but you want to convince any possible readers who might be retarded that your side is the right side.


That you think only retards can be convinced to join your side, makes me wonder about your self image.


Why are you holding to a position and world view and ideology that is so bad, that only retarded people can be tricked into thinking it is a good thing?

Have you ever tried to put forth a counter point based on facts and relevance to mine?

I don’t think so. You entire MO is to disrupt every point with whining over process while ignoring substance.

you are a fraud - that much is clear.

"Process"? Pointing out contradictions and failings in your supporting arguments, is not "process" but a valid debating tactic.


That you claim otherwise is you being a liar.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

"Process"? Pointing out contradictions and failings in your supporting arguments, is not "process" but a valid debating tactic.

you don’t point out failings and contradictions - You say you have determined a massive Christian majority in 1789s America but you won’t say how.

I’m still waiting for that.

 

[Correll]

"Process"? Pointing out contradictions and failings in your supporting arguments, is not "process" but a valid debating tactic.

you don’t point out failings and contradictions - You say you have determined a massive Christian majority in 1789s America but you won’t say how.

I’m still waiting for that.

Are you asking me a question? Cause you seem to mostly just say shit that sort of implies shit so that you can give yourself an out, when I call you on what you said.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

what do modern white Protestant Christian Nationalists like Rev Rick Joyner and Correll want? - NotfooledbyW, post: 25827208 to 25826374,

You "state" it, but your assertion is contradicted by shit like,

"
intolerant to Catholics and Jews and intolerant to non-Christian beliefs in any form. For most of the 18th Century the churched Colonist masses believed in a Christian nation that had a King who was ordained to rule the earth in Jesus’ name.

So that has to be what white Protestant Christian Nationalists deep down inside want.

No. I don’t think that is what modern white Protestant Christian Nationalists want.

Well, except for whackos like this:’

What Rick Joyner Said ​

On a Facebook live stream which you can see above Rick Joyner made an outrageous claim. Joyner claimed that every precept in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is linked to the Bible. Joyner has been deeply influenced by David Barton who is best known for creating Christian Nationalist propaganda. Barton doesn’t write history as he struggles with basics of American history. And he plays into what evangelicals want to believe. This is what Joyner said, “Believe it or not, everything in our Constitution and Bill of Rights is linked to a scripture or scriptures. All of it.” Joyner then claimed that the founding fathers wrote about how it was linked in the Federalist Papers. Joyner then praised David Barton and stated that he had more original sources in his collection then the Smithsonian did.​

Rick Joyner on How Everything in the Constitution Comes From the Bible​

​

First it is not shit - it is general historical truth. Like I said you never refute my posts - you just whine and make crap up.

When you and all your white evangelical Christian Nationalist cohorts say America was founded as a Christian based on a Christian population majority you are saying it was founded when those rank and file Christians were intolerant.

Therefore it is a lie to state even generally That America was founded as a Christian Nation because it distorts the truth by omission. Modern Christians overall are much more tolerant than their predecessors were 230 years ago. But most modern Christians aren’t spreading the lie that America was founded as a Christian NATION. So why are you so obsessed about it?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Are you asking me a question?

How do you know as a matter of fact that the massive majority living in the second half of the 18th Century in the Colonies were Christians? And what defines being a Christian in your head?