America..a Failed State?

[Meister]

Moved to General Discussion, the thread was not appropriate for the CDZ

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Enjoyed this article in Atlantic...comments? It's long, and there is some I disagree with..there is enough meat here to justify ignoring the fat..LOL

We Are Living in a Failed State

The coronavirus didn’t break America. It revealed what was already broken.

www.theatlantic.com

This second crisis, (the Great Recession) drove a profound wedge between Americans: between the upper and lower classes, Republicans and Democrats, metropolitan and rural people, the native-born and immigrants, ordinary Americans and their leaders. Social bonds had been under growing strain for several decades, and now they began to tear. The reforms of the Obama years, important as they were—in health care, financial regulation, green energy—had only palliative effects. The long recovery over the past decade enriched corporations and investors, lulled professionals, and left the working class further behind. The lasting effect of the slump was to increase polarization and to discredit authority, especially government’s.


Both parties were slow to grasp how much credibility they’d lost. The coming politics was populist. Its harbinger wasn’t Barack Obama but Sarah Palin, the absurdly unready vice-presidential candidate who scorned expertise and reveled in celebrity. She was Donald Trump’s John the Baptist.

The virus should have united Americans against a common threat. With different leadership, it might have. Instead, even as it spread from blue to red areas, attitudes broke down along familiar partisan lines. The virus also should have been a great leveler. You don’t have to be in the military or in debt to be a target—you just have to be human. But from the start, its effects have been skewed by the inequality that we’ve tolerated for so long. When tests for the virus were almost impossible to find, the wealthy and connected—the model and reality-TV host Heidi Klum, the entire roster of the Brooklyn Nets, the president’s conservative allies—were somehow able to get tested, despite many showing no symptoms. The smattering of individual results did nothing to protect public health. Meanwhile, ordinary people with fevers and chills had to wait in long and possibly infectious lines, only to be turned away because they weren’t actually suffocating. An internet joke proposed that the only way to find out whether you had the virus was to sneeze in a rich person’s face.


When Trump was asked about this blatant unfairness, he expressed disapproval but added, “Perhaps that’s been the story of life.”

I have to say...that Trump spoke the truth--hard and bitter--but 'it is what it is' sometimes. There is no question in my mind that our incessant faction fighting is hurting us. It crippled our decision making process in the beginning..and now it threatens to taint our recovery.

Before the troll that is trying to derail this thread attacks me again, I will weigh in and give my .02 cents worth - presuming you wanted a real answer.

I'm having a hard time figuring out if you are complaining about faction fighting, lack of leadership, or our response to the Corona virus scare. Faction fighting would hurt our country. But, the way I see it, the Ds and the Rs are really for the same things; just taking different routes to go there. Both hate the Constitution equally and will only interpret it to their liking. Personally, I take the good with the bad and the bad with good provided that the original intent is adhered to.

A real leader would have signed an Executive Order that compelled all facilities that could test for the Corona virus to begin testing. If you test negative, you would be given documentation. That would allow you to work for 45 to 60 days whereupon you could be tested again. Those who test positive would be put into quarantine and must stay at home for 2 weeks. Those who cannot self quarantine would be held in protective custody. Then you would have your virus detectives. Those people go out wherever a positive finding is and test friends, family, neighbors, co - workers - ANYONE who came into contact with the person who tested positive. That gives testing precedence to those most likely to have the virus whether they show the signs or not. If Trump cannot do it, let the governors. Then Trump will fall in line.

That process would take a couple of weeks, not endless months.

As it stands, there is no leader that has stepped up to the plate and shown the willingness to lead and to unite. We have no Constitution, so we don't really have any laws. And let's say it: The Republicans illegally ratified the 14th Amendment and the 14th Amendment nullified the Bill of Rights. So, George Bush was right when he said the Constitution was just a "G.D. piece of paper" (and he didn't abbreviate the sentiment.) Democrats took that literally, as Bush intended, and are wiping their butts on it due to the toilet paper shortage. So, America isn't that divided. It's just that everybody wants to talk at the same time and no real leaders are present in Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption.

 

[White 6]

Porter, I am not trying to demonize you. I just disagree with your repeated attempts to demonize the entire democrat party, for the stupidity of the few. I actually care little for either party, both having major flaws and yes, prone to excess. I just do not lump a whole party under the heading of "King Hell Satan, Destroyer of the Perfect Union." Yes you probably have more post graduate degrees than I, as I only graduated as a Bachelor of Science, and not in political science, but as a National Honors graduate and debt free. For that highly rated university, I am probably most proud of the debt free part, another mark of my conservatism. I am just not "right wing" extreme. You seem to lean more that direction. I cannot follow the extremes of either side. Wouldn't be prudent.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Enjoyed this article in Atlantic...comments? It's long, and there is some I disagree with..there is enough meat here to justify ignoring the fat..LOL

We Are Living in a Failed State

The coronavirus didn’t break America. It revealed what was already broken.

www.theatlantic.com

This second crisis, (the Great Recession) drove a profound wedge between Americans: between the upper and lower classes, Republicans and Democrats, metropolitan and rural people, the native-born and immigrants, ordinary Americans and their leaders. Social bonds had been under growing strain for several decades, and now they began to tear. The reforms of the Obama years, important as they were—in health care, financial regulation, green energy—had only palliative effects. The long recovery over the past decade enriched corporations and investors, lulled professionals, and left the working class further behind. The lasting effect of the slump was to increase polarization and to discredit authority, especially government’s.


Both parties were slow to grasp how much credibility they’d lost. The coming politics was populist. Its harbinger wasn’t Barack Obama but Sarah Palin, the absurdly unready vice-presidential candidate who scorned expertise and reveled in celebrity. She was Donald Trump’s John the Baptist.

The virus should have united Americans against a common threat. With different leadership, it might have. Instead, even as it spread from blue to red areas, attitudes broke down along familiar partisan lines. The virus also should have been a great leveler. You don’t have to be in the military or in debt to be a target—you just have to be human. But from the start, its effects have been skewed by the inequality that we’ve tolerated for so long. When tests for the virus were almost impossible to find, the wealthy and connected—the model and reality-TV host Heidi Klum, the entire roster of the Brooklyn Nets, the president’s conservative allies—were somehow able to get tested, despite many showing no symptoms. The smattering of individual results did nothing to protect public health. Meanwhile, ordinary people with fevers and chills had to wait in long and possibly infectious lines, only to be turned away because they weren’t actually suffocating. An internet joke proposed that the only way to find out whether you had the virus was to sneeze in a rich person’s face.


When Trump was asked about this blatant unfairness, he expressed disapproval but added, “Perhaps that’s been the story of life.”

I have to say...that Trump spoke the truth--hard and bitter--but 'it is what it is' sometimes. There is no question in my mind that our incessant faction fighting is hurting us. It crippled our decision making process in the beginning..and now it threatens to taint our recovery.

Before the troll that is trying to derail this thread attacks me again, I will weigh in and give my .02 cents worth - presuming you wanted a real answer.

I'm having a hard time figuring out if you are complaining about faction fighting, lack of leadership, or our response to the Corona virus scare. Faction fighting would hurt our country. But, the way I see it, the Ds and the Rs are really for the same things; just taking different routes to go there. Both hate the Constitution equally and will only interpret it to their liking. Personally, I take the good with the bad and the bad with good provided that the original intent is adhered to.

A real leader would have signed an Executive Order that compelled all facilities that could test for the Corona virus to begin testing. If you test negative, you would be given documentation. That would allow you to work for 45 to 60 days whereupon you could be tested again. Those who test positive would be put into quarantine and must stay at home for 2 weeks. Those who cannot self quarantine would be held in protective custody. Then you would have your virus detectives. Those people go out wherever a positive finding is and test friends, family, neighbors, co - workers - ANYONE who came into contact with the person who tested positive. That gives testing precedence to those most likely to have the virus whether they show the signs or not. If Trump cannot do it, let the governors. Then Trump will fall in line.

That process would take a couple of weeks, not endless months.

As it stands, there is no leader that has stepped up to the plate and shown the willingness to lead and to unite. We have no Constitution, so we don't really have any laws. And let's say it: The Republicans illegally ratified the 14th Amendment and the 14th Amendment nullified the Bill of Rights. So, George Bush was right when he said the Constitution was just a "G.D. piece of paper" (and he didn't abbreviate the sentiment.) Democrats took that literally, as Bush intended, and are wiping their butts on it due to the toilet paper shortage. So, America isn't that divided. It's just that everybody wants to talk at the same time and no real leaders are present in Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption.

I think we're on the same page...we just are weighting a few things differently. I see this as a systems problem....as far as the Chronovirus ramp-up. Even if trump had not played around and dithered..which is as much the fault of his advisors as it is his...things would not have gone smoothly. Everyone dithered...some just dithered less.
Yeah..everyone is talking right past each-other. But all these things you enumerate are actually the same thing--no leaders because our system penalizes impartial leadership.

I agree that America, as such, is not all that divided..most rank politics fairly low on their hierarchy of needs. We can get along....but those who have and seek power like to keep us riled up--to their benefit.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Porter, I am not trying to demonize you. I just disagree with your repeated attempts to demonize the entire democrat party, for the stupidity of the few. I actually care little for either party, both having major flaws and yes, prone to excess. I just do not lump a whole party under the heading of "King Hell Satan, Destroyer of the Perfect Union." Yes you probably have more post graduate degrees than I, as I only graduated as a Bachelor of Science, and not in political science, but as a National Honors graduate and debt free. For that highly rated university, I am probably most proud of the debt free part, another mark of my conservatism. I am just not "right wing" extreme. You seem to lean more that direction. I cannot follow the extremes of either side. Wouldn't be prudent.

EVERYBODY on this board graduated as a "National Honors" student, Harvard grad, summa cum laude, etc. but, I'm the only person on these boards who has taken on all FTF challengers. In the years where this crap has gone back and forth, ONE guy did meet with me publicly and we exchanged proof of what and who we were. He still went back to the boards and falsely said I wouldn't step outside and go back behind the restaurant we met in... that'll be the day. IF you had the degrees you claim, you would not be picking fights on the Internet. It's childish and you did not disagree with me; you implied that I suggested and advocated things that were IF scenarios that are not going to happen to begin with. You didn't understand that. So, you attempted to flame me.

The Democrats are not being hypocritical. They would dismantle what's left of the Constitution without going through the amendment process. They are up front. I don't have to demonize a party that has already pledged itself to the destruction of the core values of the founders / framers. As for being "right wing," I am persona non grata at EVERYTHING the so - called right participates in. When you refuse to kiss Trump's ass; when you disagree with the Nationalist Socialist solutions to immigration woes; when you don't want the POLICE STATE, the right has no use for you. They accuse me of being a liberal, but I could show them the books, VHS tapes, newsletters, and white papers by right wing / conservative / constitutionalists of the times (1970s through late 1990s) that predicted this POLICE STATE / Orwellian nightmare the "right" not only bought into, but lobbied for, introduced and passed into law. The very evils the right was against a generation ago are manna from Heaven in right wing circles today. The biggest difference between the two parties, the Democrats are admitting that they want socialism and they are going to taking a giant dump on the Constitution (or what semblance of it that is left.) That leaves us to pontificate about what alternatives are left - and that damn sure doesn't mean I advocate or entertain either at the present.

 

[White 6]

Porter, I am not trying to demonize you. I just disagree with your repeated attempts to demonize the entire democrat party, for the stupidity of the few. I actually care little for either party, both having major flaws and yes, prone to excess. I just do not lump a whole party under the heading of "King Hell Satan, Destroyer of the Perfect Union." Yes you probably have more post graduate degrees than I, as I only graduated as a Bachelor of Science, and not in political science, but as a National Honors graduate and debt free. For that highly rated university, I am probably most proud of the debt free part, another mark of my conservatism. I am just not "right wing" extreme. You seem to lean more that direction. I cannot follow the extremes of either side. Wouldn't be prudent.

EVERYBODY on this board graduated as a "National Honors" student, Harvard grad, summa cum laude, etc. but, I'm the only person on these boards who has taken on all FTF challengers. In the years where this crap has gone back and forth, ONE guy did meet with me publicly and we exchanged proof of what and who we were. He still went back to the boards and falsely said I wouldn't step outside and go back behind the restaurant we met in... that'll be the day. IF you had the degrees you claim, you would not be picking fights on the Internet. It's childish and you did not disagree with me; you implied that I suggested and advocated things that were IF scenarios that are not going to happen to begin with. You didn't understand that. So, you attempted to flame me.

The Democrats are not being hypocritical. They would dismantle what's left of the Constitution without going through the amendment process. They are up front. I don't have to demonize a party that has already pledged itself to the destruction of the core values of the founders / framers. As for being "right wing," I am persona non grata at EVERYTHING the so - called right participates in. When you refuse to kiss Trump's ass; when you disagree with the Nationalist Socialist solutions to immigration woes; when you don't want the POLICE STATE, the right has no use for you. They accuse me of being a liberal, but I could show them the books, VHS tapes, newsletters, and white papers by right wing / conservative / constitutionalists of the times (1970s through late 1990s) that predicted this POLICE STATE / Orwellian nightmare the "right" not only bought into, but lobbied for, introduced and passed into law. The very evils the right was against a generation ago are manna from Heaven in right wing circles today. The biggest difference between the two parties, the Democrats are admitting that they want socialism and they are going to taking a giant dump on the Constitution (or what semblance of it that is left.) That leaves us to pontificate about what alternatives are left - and that damn sure doesn't mean I advocate or entertain either at the present.

No need to flame you, and not trying. You burn yourself to the ground every time you type. Normal people do not and will not believe your doomsday at the hands of the Democratic party prophesy, simple as that. It is not a conservative viewpoint, just bomb throwing. Real conservatives do not throw bombs as casually. As for "showing the right", you cannot show the right (not the same as conservative, BTW). They will not listen. Normal conservative natured people also will not listen, when all you want to do is throw bombs. You obviously hate the Democrats, so they won't listen to you. Maybe you should have taken more philosophy. Possible a course in salesmanship. You are letting politics eat you alive and it shows, like a sick animal gnawing it's foot and snapping at all who come near.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Porter, I am not trying to demonize you. I just disagree with your repeated attempts to demonize the entire democrat party, for the stupidity of the few. I actually care little for either party, both having major flaws and yes, prone to excess. I just do not lump a whole party under the heading of "King Hell Satan, Destroyer of the Perfect Union." Yes you probably have more post graduate degrees than I, as I only graduated as a Bachelor of Science, and not in political science, but as a National Honors graduate and debt free. For that highly rated university, I am probably most proud of the debt free part, another mark of my conservatism. I am just not "right wing" extreme. You seem to lean more that direction. I cannot follow the extremes of either side. Wouldn't be prudent.

EVERYBODY on this board graduated as a "National Honors" student, Harvard grad, summa cum laude, etc. but, I'm the only person on these boards who has taken on all FTF challengers. In the years where this crap has gone back and forth, ONE guy did meet with me publicly and we exchanged proof of what and who we were. He still went back to the boards and falsely said I wouldn't step outside and go back behind the restaurant we met in... that'll be the day. IF you had the degrees you claim, you would not be picking fights on the Internet. It's childish and you did not disagree with me; you implied that I suggested and advocated things that were IF scenarios that are not going to happen to begin with. You didn't understand that. So, you attempted to flame me.

The Democrats are not being hypocritical. They would dismantle what's left of the Constitution without going through the amendment process. They are up front. I don't have to demonize a party that has already pledged itself to the destruction of the core values of the founders / framers. As for being "right wing," I am persona non grata at EVERYTHING the so - called right participates in. When you refuse to kiss Trump's ass; when you disagree with the Nationalist Socialist solutions to immigration woes; when you don't want the POLICE STATE, the right has no use for you. They accuse me of being a liberal, but I could show them the books, VHS tapes, newsletters, and white papers by right wing / conservative / constitutionalists of the times (1970s through late 1990s) that predicted this POLICE STATE / Orwellian nightmare the "right" not only bought into, but lobbied for, introduced and passed into law. The very evils the right was against a generation ago are manna from Heaven in right wing circles today. The biggest difference between the two parties, the Democrats are admitting that they want socialism and they are going to taking a giant dump on the Constitution (or what semblance of it that is left.) That leaves us to pontificate about what alternatives are left - and that damn sure doesn't mean I advocate or entertain either at the present.

No need to flame you, and not trying. You burn yourself to the ground every time you type. Normal people do not and will not believe your doomsday at the hands of the Democratic party prophesy, simple as that. It is not a conservative viewpoint, just bomb throwing. Real conservatives do not throw bombs as casually. As for "showing the right", you cannot show the right (not the same as conservative, BTW). They will not listen. Normal conservative natured people also will not listen, when all you want to do is throw bombs. You obviously hate the Democrats, so they won't listen to you. Maybe you should have taken more philosophy. Possible a course in salesmanship. You are letting politics eat you alive and it shows, like a sick animal gnawing it's foot and snapping at all who come near.

Do you realize that you've been on me like a dog in heat ever since I got on this thread? Crash and burn? "doomsday at the hands of the Democratic party prophesy?" I'm not a conservative, not a fan of Democrats, and if you like being holier than thou and smug, you aren't going to impress me. "Normal conservatives" don't exist. You sound like some kind of kosher conservative that wants the accolades of both parties so you can stuff me away. Son, you aren't impressing me. Take your e bay degree and your pompous ass attitude somewhere else and find someone who cares. If you're reading what I'm writing and it bothers you that much, at least half a dozen other people are reading this as well.

Since the truth don't care who it offends, I don't either. When people begin listening to and reading what the masses are advocating, they will understand that I'm calling it right. Your make believe B.S. won't win you any converts. I have more respect for the Democrats than I do the Republicans. They're telling you they are comfortable with socialism. It's not offensive to them. I disagree with them. They are sincere in what they believe, but they are sincerely wrong. The Republicans, like it or not, are mere pawns in a bigger game they cannot understand, on the whole. So I have my opinion. You don't like it? Don't read it. If there are people that don't like the status quo, they will not be influenced by the liars in Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption. They will exercise all of their nonviolent legal and political avenues of redress while preparing for the inevitable. And even you cannot B.S. your way past the cycles of history.

 

[Olde Europe]

Well...I was responding to another post...as to 'foundational principles' ..seems straightforward enough...Preamble stuff..Bill of Rights. But my point was simply the two sides in our culture wars view..well, almost everything--differently. Take any of the 'litmus test' issues--and ask about the Constitutional take on them..it can be, sometimes, as though there are two different documents. Gun rights, Abortion Rights, Civil Rights, Taxation, Religious Rights, 1st amendment rights..and on...and on...and on.
Which is well and good..except partisans are demonizing the other side..denying their 'Americanness'--to make up a word.

I, as you know, see that as the existential threat we all face. The Balkanization of the US along Rural/Urban lines--extreme inequities of wealth becoming more extreme...leading to scarcities so profound that forced migration and war become the only answer. If you are a poor red state..and you cannot take care of your population base..what are your options? If you are a Blue state the needs the water from 8 states to survive..what do you do when the tap is turned off?

I once wrote that civil war never bothered me..because happy, well fed people don't rebel.....I'm not so sure that that is going to be the case..in 18 months.

Yep, I guess I have a hunch where you stand, and what worries you.

These are not "principles", much less "foundational principles". That would be something guiding the whole constitutional structure, like, anti-monarchism, a strong but limited-in-scope federal government, voters having a say on who is to govern, or strong protections for individual rights against an overbearing executive, not least limits on legislative power.

It will not surprise you that I am of the opinion that the different views on certain constitutional provisions arose because Republicans have abandoned the Constitution itself, including any and all respect for what the Supreme Court says in case they don't like it. That ranges from gut-rights absolutism to religious-rights absolutism and does not end with the equation of money and speech, opening the door to near limitless bribery. The reason for that, as I explained earlier, is that the GOP has nothing to offer to 99% of Americans, and their electioneering therefore has to rely on wedge issues with which to capture an increasingly irate White middle- and working class.

No, Dems aren't going to take their guns away, they wouldn't create death panels, they don't flush bibles down the toilet, and neither are they in favor of killing babies and selling them for parts.

How far the GOP traveled down the rabbit hole of complete insanity you can measure based on one single story: In 2006, a near unanimous Congress reauthorized the Voting Rights Act, signed into law by Bush. A few year later, the Roberts court reduced it to ruins. Asked to restore the crown jewel of the civil rights legislation to its former glory, the GOP counted one - Sensenbrenner - in favor. One. A complete and utter retard in just about ever respect I can think of, but he had the integrity and the decency to stand up. One. The consequence was a slew, a tsunami of gerrymandering and disenfranchisement legislation throughout GOP-ruled states. All within a single decade. What would be more foundational than securing the franchise for every citizen? The GOP won't support, they won't suffer that. That's the distance between a party standing firmly, if grudgingly, on constitutional grounds, and one that abandoned it.

The GOP abandoned the constitutional, democratic republic, and for one single purpose, to keep themselves in power and in service of the plutocracy. That's why the only real accomplishment during three years of Trump's presidency was a tax cut for the rich. There is no similar development on the other side, not even a shadow of a hint of it. That is why I wholly reject your wishy-washy "they see it differently". They don't. The GOP ran off the reservation, and ever since angrily lumbers through the thicket of paranoia and conspiracy theories, as exemplified by Trump. He is the logical, inexorable outgrowth of that putrid swamp.

For what it's worth, no, I don't believe there is going to be a civil war. The left won't start one, and rightarded, wheezing, overfed geezers whose sense of orientation is at most sufficient to find the next fast-food joint, won't mount a rebellion. At most, they pull off something like the Malheur Wildlife Refuge - and that was pathetic, from the fake martial posturing to the reduction of the building to a waste basket, covered in pizza containers. Yes, a bunch of gun nuts can cause damage and suffering, but they are going to get crushed, and a civil war is an entirely different animal. For that, they would need coordination over numerous States AND the support by quite a number of these States. Without that, the whole thing would be over very fast. Can you see States rising up in open rebellion? Nope, I can't.

Finally, you do as you please, of course, but could you resolve to ignore the tinfoil hatters? Do yourself a favor, and, you know, your heart, too.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Finally, you do as you please, of course, but could you resolve to ignore the tinfoil hatters? Do yourself a favor, and, you know, your heart, too.

i know...it's a guilty pleasure...I like how they crunch when chewed by logic.

I tell you...that i can see insurrection as a bit more likely post-pandemic. What happens when the Govt. relief wears off..when 10's of millions can't make the credit card bill and mortgage?

It might be a Godsend for the Dems though..if people get pissed and get into a 'throw the bums out' frame of mind!

BTW..the Preamble to the Constitution is chalk full of Principles....just sayin' --

Again, and your post illustrates it, both sides accuse the other of ignoring the Constitution while wrapping themselves around the selfsame document.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Well...I was responding to another post...as to 'foundational principles' ..seems straightforward enough...Preamble stuff..Bill of Rights. But my point was simply the two sides in our culture wars view..well, almost everything--differently. Take any of the 'litmus test' issues--and ask about the Constitutional take on them..it can be, sometimes, as though there are two different documents. Gun rights, Abortion Rights, Civil Rights, Taxation, Religious Rights, 1st amendment rights..and on...and on...and on.
Which is well and good..except partisans are demonizing the other side..denying their 'Americanness'--to make up a word.

I, as you know, see that as the existential threat we all face. The Balkanization of the US along Rural/Urban lines--extreme inequities of wealth becoming more extreme...leading to scarcities so profound that forced migration and war become the only answer. If you are a poor red state..and you cannot take care of your population base..what are your options? If you are a Blue state the needs the water from 8 states to survive..what do you do when the tap is turned off?

I once wrote that civil war never bothered me..because happy, well fed people don't rebel.....I'm not so sure that that is going to be the case..in 18 months.

Yep, I guess I have a hunch where you stand, and what worries you.

These are not "principles", much less "foundational principles". That would be something guiding the whole constitutional structure, like, anti-monarchism, a strong but limited-in-scope federal government, voters having a say on who is to govern, or strong protections for individual rights against an overbearing executive, not least limits on legislative power.

It will not surprise you that I am of the opinion that the different views on certain constitutional provisions arose because Republicans have abandoned the Constitution itself, including any and all respect for what the Supreme Court says in case they don't like it. That ranges from gut-rights absolutism to religious-rights absolutism and does not end with the equation of money and speech, opening the door to near limitless bribery. The reason for that, as I explained earlier, is that the GOP has nothing to offer to 99% of Americans, and their electioneering therefore has to rely on wedge issues with which to capture an increasingly irate White middle- and working class.

No, Dems aren't going to take their guns away, they wouldn't create death panels, they don't flush bibles down the toilet, and neither are they in favor of killing babies and selling them for parts.

How far the GOP traveled down the rabbit hole of complete insanity you can measure based on one single story: In 2006, a near unanimous Congress reauthorized the Voting Rights Act, signed into law by Bush. A few year later, the Roberts court reduced it to ruins. Asked to restore the crown jewel of the civil rights legislation to its former glory, the GOP counted one - Sensenbrenner - in favor. One. A complete and utter retard in just about ever respect I can think of, but he had the integrity and the decency to stand up. One. The consequence was a slew, a tsunami of gerrymandering and disenfranchisement legislation throughout GOP-ruled states. All within a single decade. What would be more foundational than securing the franchise for every citizen? The GOP won't support, they won't suffer that. That's the distance between a party standing firmly, if grudgingly, on constitutional grounds, and one that abandoned it.

The GOP abandoned the constitutional, democratic republic, and for one single purpose, to keep themselves in power and in service of the plutocracy. That's why the only real accomplishment during three years of Trump's presidency was a tax cut for the rich. There is no similar development on the other side, not even a shadow of a hint of it. That is why I wholly reject your wishy-washy "they see it differently". They don't. The GOP ran off the reservation, and ever since angrily lumbers through the thicket of paranoia and conspiracy theories, as exemplified by Trump. He is the logical, inexorable outgrowth of that putrid swamp.

For what it's worth, no, I don't believe there is going to be a civil war. The left won't start one, and rightarded, wheezing, overfed geezers whose sense of orientation is at most sufficient to find the next fast-food joint, won't mount a rebellion. At most, they pull off something like the Malheur Wildlife Refuge - and that was pathetic, from the fake martial posturing to the reduction of the building to a waste basket, covered in pizza containers. Yes, a bunch of gun nuts can cause damage and suffering, but they are going to get crushed, and a civil war is an entirely different animal. For that, they would need coordination over numerous States AND the support by quite a number of these States. Without that, the whole thing would be over very fast. Can you see States rising up in open rebellion? Nope, I can't.

Finally, you do as you please, of course, but could you resolve to ignore the tinfoil hatters? Do yourself a favor, and, you know, your heart, too.

You claimed that Dems won't take the guns away, but Biden looked straight into a camera and declared it:



What have I got to do to get you to listen to the truth?

 

[Olde Europe]

Again, and your post illustrates it, both sides accuse the other of ignoring the Constitution while wrapping themselves around the selfsame document.

Yeah, but I can explain when and how and why it happened. And I do.

BTW, the next step of abandoning the Constitution came when Trump completely ignored Congress's investigative and impeachment powers. That's an entire article basically annihilated, along with the cherished principle of checks and balances. I have yet to see our righties ever demonstrating anything like it.

And no, opposing the right's gun-rights absolutism, and advocating for reasonable gun regulation, is not anywhere near the right's constitutional vandalism.

 

[Correll]

Well...I was responding to another post...as to 'foundational principles' ..seems straightforward enough...Preamble stuff..Bill of Rights. But my point was simply the two sides in our culture wars view..well, almost everything--differently. Take any of the 'litmus test' issues--and ask about the Constitutional take on them..it can be, sometimes, as though there are two different documents. Gun rights, Abortion Rights, Civil Rights, Taxation, Religious Rights, 1st amendment rights..and on...and on...and on.
Which is well and good..except partisans are demonizing the other side..denying their 'Americanness'--to make up a word.

I, as you know, see that as the existential threat we all face. The Balkanization of the US along Rural/Urban lines--extreme inequities of wealth becoming more extreme...leading to scarcities so profound that forced migration and war become the only answer. If you are a poor red state..and you cannot take care of your population base..what are your options? If you are a Blue state the needs the water from 8 states to survive..what do you do when the tap is turned off?

I once wrote that civil war never bothered me..because happy, well fed people don't rebel.....I'm not so sure that that is going to be the case..in 18 months.

Yep, I guess I have a hunch where you stand, and what worries you.

These are not "principles", much less "foundational principles". That would be something guiding the whole constitutional structure, like, anti-monarchism, a strong but limited-in-scope federal government, voters having a say on who is to govern, or strong protections for individual rights against an overbearing executive, not least limits on legislative power.

It will not surprise you that I am of the opinion that the different views on certain constitutional provisions arose because Republicans have abandoned the Constitution itself, including any and all respect for what the Supreme Court says in case they don't like it. That ranges from gut-rights absolutism to religious-rights absolutism and does not end with the equation of money and speech,....

I stopped here.

The religious right is a strong faction in the GOP. But it is insane to say something like "religious right absolutism".

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Again, and your post illustrates it, both sides accuse the other of ignoring the Constitution while wrapping themselves around the selfsame document.

Yeah, but I can explain when and how and why it happened. And I do.

BTW, the next step of abandoning the Constitution came when Trump completely ignored Congress's investigative and impeachment powers. That's an entire article basically annihilated, along with the cherished principle of checks and balances. I have yet to see our righties ever demonstrating anything like it.

And no, opposing the right's gun-rights absolutism, and advocating for reasonable gun regulation, is not anywhere near the right's constitutional vandalism.

You have no respect for the law. Otherwise you would support it. And when the Constitution is tampered with in a devious manner, regardless of whether you believe in the Right or not, you should speak out. Your Rights are next.

 

[Olde Europe]

I tell you...that i can see insurrection as a bit more likely post-pandemic. What happens when the Govt. relief wears off..when 10's of millions can't make the credit card bill and mortgage?

That one had me thinking for a while, and yes, I, too, believe there's going to be some harrowing misery for quite some time. That isn't just because of the current partial shutdown, but mainly because that so-called small-business money was quickly gobbled up by all-but-small businesses. Who'd a thunk? The back-bone of the economy set adrift, and the fat cats eating their lunch. And, that's going to get worse, as models determine that, say, Georgia should open up in mid-June at the earliest. Kemp, that world-class moron, egged on by the Orange dunce, has other plans, just not plans for meticulous contract tracing. That guarantees a resurgence, and, as Georgians start to travel, a resurgence all around. So, make good plans for the next shut-down in, say, two or three months.

Still, folks who are broke and hungry don't organize an insurrection. They may go for a suicidal shooting spree - bad enough - but, again, organizing tens or hundreds of thousands of folks (easily detectable) including State support they do not do.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I tell you...that i can see insurrection as a bit more likely post-pandemic. What happens when the Govt. relief wears off..when 10's of millions can't make the credit card bill and mortgage?

That one had me thinking for a while, and yes, I, too, believe there's going to be some harrowing misery for quite some time. That isn't just because of the current partial shutdown, but mainly because that so-called small-business money was quickly gobbled up by all-but-small businesses. Who'd a thunk? The back-bone of the economy set adrift, and the fat cats eating their lunch. And, that's going to get worse, as models determine that, say, Georgia should open up in mid-June at the earliest. Kemp, that world-class moron, egged on by the Orange dunce, has other plans, just not plans for meticulous contract tracing. That guarantees a resurgence, and, as Georgians start to travel, a resurgence all around. So, make good plans for the next shut-down in, say, two or three months.

Still, folks who are broke and hungry don't organize an insurrection. They may go for a suicidal shooting spree - bad enough - but, again, organizing tens or hundreds of thousands of folks (easily detectable) including State support they do not do.

Tell that to the Muslim terrorists operating in the United States.

 

[Votto]

Enjoyed this article in Atlantic...comments? It's long, and there is some I disagree with..there is enough meat here to justify ignoring the fat..LOL

We Are Living in a Failed State

The coronavirus didn’t break America. It revealed what was already broken.

www.theatlantic.com

This second crisis, (the Great Recession) drove a profound wedge between Americans: between the upper and lower classes, Republicans and Democrats, metropolitan and rural people, the native-born and immigrants, ordinary Americans and their leaders. Social bonds had been under growing strain for several decades, and now they began to tear. The reforms of the Obama years, important as they were—in health care, financial regulation, green energy—had only palliative effects. The long recovery over the past decade enriched corporations and investors, lulled professionals, and left the working class further behind. The lasting effect of the slump was to increase polarization and to discredit authority, especially government’s.


Both parties were slow to grasp how much credibility they’d lost. The coming politics was populist. Its harbinger wasn’t Barack Obama but Sarah Palin, the absurdly unready vice-presidential candidate who scorned expertise and reveled in celebrity. She was Donald Trump’s John the Baptist.

The virus should have united Americans against a common threat. With different leadership, it might have. Instead, even as it spread from blue to red areas, attitudes broke down along familiar partisan lines. The virus also should have been a great leveler. You don’t have to be in the military or in debt to be a target—you just have to be human. But from the start, its effects have been skewed by the inequality that we’ve tolerated for so long. When tests for the virus were almost impossible to find, the wealthy and connected—the model and reality-TV host Heidi Klum, the entire roster of the Brooklyn Nets, the president’s conservative allies—were somehow able to get tested, despite many showing no symptoms. The smattering of individual results did nothing to protect public health. Meanwhile, ordinary people with fevers and chills had to wait in long and possibly infectious lines, only to be turned away because they weren’t actually suffocating. An internet joke proposed that the only way to find out whether you had the virus was to sneeze in a rich person’s face.


When Trump was asked about this blatant unfairness, he expressed disapproval but added, “Perhaps that’s been the story of life.”

I have to say...that Trump spoke the truth--hard and bitter--but 'it is what it is' sometimes. There is no question in my mind that our incessant faction fighting is hurting us. It crippled our decision making process in the beginning..and now it threatens to taint our recovery.

Factions? You mean rich vs. poor, white vs. black, male vs female? These are the factions that the DNC has been growing every year, factions to divide the country with hate.

 

[gipper]

America's current political and institutional difficulties will cease and become stronger than ever when they remove the buffoon currently residing in the White House pretending to be a President.

No, they won't. Those that Trump spoke for, will still be here, being ignored by the Political Class and those who hate us, will keep attacking US.

Ya, many folks have seen and predicted the "victimhood" excuse you are using. Poor tea bagger trumpoholics. Everyone is picking on them for no good reasons.

So, you refute my complaint of us being attacked, by attacking us?

Interesting choice.

No, I am putting your victimhood in perspective. You being criticized, your opinions being rejected and people viewing you and your ilk as deplorable misinformed morons, an attack if you wish, does not make you a victim of anything but yourself and your own buffoonery.

The oligarchy love when we hate each other.

Stop supporting the Oligarchs.

 

[gipper]

Porter, I am not trying to demonize you. I just disagree with your repeated attempts to demonize the entire democrat party, for the stupidity of the few. I actually care little for either party, both having major flaws and yes, prone to excess. I just do not lump a whole party under the heading of "King Hell Satan, Destroyer of the Perfect Union." Yes you probably have more post graduate degrees than I, as I only graduated as a Bachelor of Science, and not in political science, but as a National Honors graduate and debt free. For that highly rated university, I am probably most proud of the debt free part, another mark of my conservatism. I am just not "right wing" extreme. You seem to lean more that direction. I cannot follow the extremes of either side. Wouldn't be prudent.

EVERYBODY on this board graduated as a "National Honors" student, Harvard grad, summa cum laude, etc. but, I'm the only person on these boards who has taken on all FTF challengers. In the years where this crap has gone back and forth, ONE guy did meet with me publicly and we exchanged proof of what and who we were. He still went back to the boards and falsely said I wouldn't step outside and go back behind the restaurant we met in... that'll be the day. IF you had the degrees you claim, you would not be picking fights on the Internet. It's childish and you did not disagree with me; you implied that I suggested and advocated things that were IF scenarios that are not going to happen to begin with. You didn't understand that. So, you attempted to flame me.

The Democrats are not being hypocritical. They would dismantle what's left of the Constitution without going through the amendment process. They are up front. I don't have to demonize a party that has already pledged itself to the destruction of the core values of the founders / framers. As for being "right wing," I am persona non grata at EVERYTHING the so - called right participates in. When you refuse to kiss Trump's ass; when you disagree with the Nationalist Socialist solutions to immigration woes; when you don't want the POLICE STATE, the right has no use for you. They accuse me of being a liberal, but I could show them the books, VHS tapes, newsletters, and white papers by right wing / conservative / constitutionalists of the times (1970s through late 1990s) that predicted this POLICE STATE / Orwellian nightmare the "right" not only bought into, but lobbied for, introduced and passed into law. The very evils the right was against a generation ago are manna from Heaven in right wing circles today. The biggest difference between the two parties, the Democrats are admitting that they want socialism and they are going to taking a giant dump on the Constitution (or what semblance of it that is left.) That leaves us to pontificate about what alternatives are left - and that damn sure doesn't mean I advocate or entertain either at the present.

No need to flame you, and not trying. You burn yourself to the ground every time you type. Normal people do not and will not believe your doomsday at the hands of the Democratic party prophesy, simple as that. It is not a conservative viewpoint, just bomb throwing. Real conservatives do not throw bombs as casually. As for "showing the right", you cannot show the right (not the same as conservative, BTW). They will not listen. Normal conservative natured people also will not listen, when all you want to do is throw bombs. You obviously hate the Democrats, so they won't listen to you. Maybe you should have taken more philosophy. Possible a course in salesmanship. You are letting politics eat you alive and it shows, like a sick animal gnawing it's foot and snapping at all who come near.

Blaming the D Party for all that’s bad in the world, is obviously a sign of ignorance. Both criminal gangs are complicit since after all, they are both owned and controlled by the extreme wealthy.

 

[Correll]

America's current political and institutional difficulties will cease and become stronger than ever when they remove the buffoon currently residing in the White House pretending to be a President.

No, they won't. Those that Trump spoke for, will still be here, being ignored by the Political Class and those who hate us, will keep attacking US.

Ya, many folks have seen and predicted the "victimhood" excuse you are using. Poor tea bagger trumpoholics. Everyone is picking on them for no good reasons.

So, you refute my complaint of us being attacked, by attacking us?

Interesting choice.

No, I am putting your victimhood in perspective. You being criticized, your opinions being rejected and people viewing you and your ilk as deplorable misinformed morons, an attack if you wish, does not make you a victim of anything but yourself and your own buffoonery.

The oligarchy love when we hate each other.

Stop supporting the Oligarchs.

I don't buy the view of the Oligarch as as cohesive entity, BUT, I would be happy to stop hating the Left, if they stop constantly being assholes.

A disagreement on policy is one thing, but they are constantly being fucking assholes about every little thing.

 

[gipper]

America's current political and institutional difficulties will cease and become stronger than ever when they remove the buffoon currently residing in the White House pretending to be a President.

No, they won't. Those that Trump spoke for, will still be here, being ignored by the Political Class and those who hate us, will keep attacking US.

Ya, many folks have seen and predicted the "victimhood" excuse you are using. Poor tea bagger trumpoholics. Everyone is picking on them for no good reasons.

So, you refute my complaint of us being attacked, by attacking us?

Interesting choice.

No, I am putting your victimhood in perspective. You being criticized, your opinions being rejected and people viewing you and your ilk as deplorable misinformed morons, an attack if you wish, does not make you a victim of anything but yourself and your own buffoonery.

The oligarchy love when we hate each other.

Stop supporting the Oligarchs.

I don't buy the view of the Oligarch as as cohesive entity, BUT, I would be happy to stop hating the Left, if they stop constantly being assholes.

A disagreement on policy is one thing, but they are constantly being fucking assholes about every little thing.

You must hate. Why?