Agree or not: The rich benefit the most from tax money?

[WillowTree]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

But everyone benefits from this. They have the same access to a road I do, but they drive in a better car (or are driven.) If they take mass transit they pay the same as I do and sit in the same seat. Army tanks and Air force planes protect thier bigger house just as they protect my apartment. The research done benefits my job and thiers, or thier stocks.

The one area of inequality may be legal/police. But that is more a local issue than a federal and another debate.

The question becomes why should they pay more for the same or less benefits? They do not use all of the programs designed for the middle class and poor americans. Yet they pay more on a raw dollar amount simply because they have more.

Again, I am not against a progressive income tax entirely, but at what point is "just a bit more of thier fair share" too much?

egggsactly! the people who benefit the most are the people who don't have to pay squat for anything..

 

[Dr Gregg]

It's a completely worthless and brain dead point, as taxes on productivity don't pay for roads...Fuel taxes do.

Income taxes don't really pay for any services, as much as they are a tool for political polarization, confiscation and redistribution from the productive, to the looters and idlers.

let me guess, not a condescending post?

And a very rational, realistic post too huh?
Oh the nutters

Whatever you say, looter.

Oh, did I upset the wittle troll for pointing out how full of shit he is?

I pay taxes, and receive no gov't assistance, never have. Troll talking point fail.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I'm still waiting for these proggressives/Marxists to point out how they feel they are entitled to that which they have not earned.

That's pretty basic. I'm surprised people don't understand this simple concept. It's even in the Bible:

"If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
2 Thessalonians 3:10

That's when the discussion morphs into pedestrian stuff like we've been reading about the rich using up all the money.

I can only hope these folks are just very young and very naive. Otherwise... YIKES!

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

let me guess, not a condescending post?

And a very rational, realistic post too huh?
Oh the nutters

Whatever you say, looter.

Oh, did I upset the wittle troll for pointing out how full of shit he is?

I pay taxes, and receive no gov't assistance, never have. Troll talking point fail.

Oh I bet your tax bill is astronomical!

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

My Father, all the while I was growing up told me.. "the World doesn't owe you a living"

 

[Lonestar_logic]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

They also take the highest risk, employ the most people. And every citizen enjoys Military and police protection. Scientific discoveries benefit all humankind regardless of wealth. The government works for all the people not just thre wealthy ones. Any one can patent a product.

Is that all you got??

Well then you got nothing!!!

 

[hboats]

Dr. Gregg,

You seem to want everyone else to back up what they say, but why is it that you don't want to do it yourself?

You've said in this thread that WE ALL pay taxes. That just isn't true. Almost 50% of the citizens of this country pay no taxes. You've also said that tax money is not "my money." I ask you then, where did it come from? Did we not sign a contract or agree that our employer would pay us X amount in wages? But we don't bring home X amount, we bring home X-Y (where Y = tax dollars). X is what I agreed to be paid, and I'm not taking X home. I don't disagree that there needs to be taxation, what I disagree with is politicians telling us that certain people have too much and shouldn't worry about government digging a little deeper into their pockets to extract more of their hard earned money.

You never answered my earlier question. Where do we draw the line? Should it be 2 $100,000 cars? 1 $1,000,000 home and a vacation house? How about we just say $2,000,000 a year, anything above that goes back to the government? I mean, I could EASILY live on $2,000,000 a year, so no one else must deserve to have more than that.

The government needs to get their house in order before they come asking for more of my money. And yes, it is MY MONEY.

I make my household budget so that the expenses fit within my income. The government should try to do the same.

Rick

 

[Foxfyre]

There is some validity that 20% to a person making $300,000 is different than 20% to a person making $45,000.00 To me there is nothing wrong with some progressiveness in the tax code.

My issue is that if people who tend to want to tax the rich more REALLY want to tax them more, like 50-75% of income over value X. To me that is confiscation, not taxation. But thats what would be needed to achive the "equality" they are looking for.

I'm not wildly opposed to some progressiveness in the tax code, but there's two problems with it.

1. Obviously, people opinions on "some" is going to disagree wildly as evidenced by this thread. Some people here think the rich need to pay much more than they do today.

2. It creates gaps. I'm sure there's better way to do it, but you can't (for example) say that someone who makes $100,000.01 per year gets taxed at 25% while someone who makes $100,000.00 gets taxed at 20%. That one cent difference in income costs me $5,000. So, if i make $100k, my net income is $80k, but if i make $100,000.01, my net income is basically $75k. In order to get out of that hole, i basically need to make $107k per year. Maybe i'm making a mountain out of a mole hill, but there's some incentive there to do less in order to make less money which ultimately means you're not doing as much as you could to better yourself and your company.

This sorta got lost in the melee here I think, but Someguy makes a very good argument here.

And I am going to also refer back to my earlier post:

The issue comes down to four purposes for taxes paid:

1. Those necessary to cover expenses for the necessary administrative functions of government mandated by laws.

2. Those necessary to pay for shared infrastructure and services that benefit all, rich and poor alike.

3. Those approved by the taxpayers for certain quality of life aesthetics such as libraries, museums, zoos, aquariums, parks, beautification, convention and civic centers, open space etc.

4. Those presumed to be 'compassionate' or 'beneficial' or 'warranted' for certain targeted demographics.

Now which of these do you think benefit the poor more than the rich?

 

[Oddball]

let me guess, not a condescending post?

And a very rational, realistic post too huh?
Oh the nutters

Whatever you say, looter.

Oh, did I upset the wittle troll for pointing out how full of shit he is?

I pay taxes, and receive no gov't assistance, never have. Troll talking point fail.

Don't flatter yourself...You've upset nobody, asshelmet.

BTW, we can all see how you've dodged the fact that your list of imposed gubmint services aren't paid for by taxes on the reviled "wealthy"...How 'bout you get your poop in a group and stay on topic.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Whatever you say, looter.

Oh, did I upset the wittle troll for pointing out how full of shit he is?

I pay taxes, and receive no gov't assistance, never have. Troll talking point fail.

Don't flatter yourself...You've upset nobody, asshelmet.

BTW, we can all see how you've dodged the fact that your list of imposed gubmint services aren't paid for by taxes on the reviled "wealthy"...How 'bout you get your poop in a group and stay on topic.

"Poop in a group" LOL!!!!

I'll have to work that into a conversation sometime.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

No need to balance the budget when you have asshats like gregg who think it ok to just steal more of your money. (never any more of their money)

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I'm thinking Gregg's a 1040 EZ filer and line 11 is somewhere around $0

 

[hboats]

4. Those presumed to be 'compassionate' or 'beneficial' or 'warranted' for certain targeted demographics.
#4 is where most of the issues are as it is here that government most often robs Peter to pay Paul.

It all comes down to what type of society we choose to be. Do we want to take care of the less fortunate? Do we want to punish those who have made bad choices? Do we want to take care of the children of people who have made bad choices?

Well, we seem to want to punish those who have made good choices, so why not punish those who have made bad choices too? Why should someone else's bad choice be a punishment to me?

Should there be a safety net of "three hots and a cot' to anyone regardless of how repulsive they are to us?
Do we want people begging door to door? Do we want the sick and infirm dying in our streets?

Again, where do we draw the line? "Three hots and a cot" why not a mortgage free house? Why not two cars in the driveway? And there are plenty of charities out there that supply "three hots and a cot" so why is the government taking more of my money when I'm supporting these charities already?

These are the choices modern societies make. The level of support that is provided to the lowest common denominator is part of what defines us

Again, what's the lowest common denominator? Who sets it? Does it differ for different people in different locations? I mean, since we expect the tax rate to differ dramatically for different people in different situations, who's to say that the lowest common denominator doesn't differ either? There's way too many variables, and a society needs to take care of it's own to be a true society, not by FORCE.

Rick

 

[Stainmaster]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

The rich do benefit more than the average Americans from tax dollars. Words like 'subsidy,' 'grant,' and 'research,' tell that story. All things considered for services rendered, including all the accusations against the U.S.P.S, I think the American taxpayer gets a lot of 'bang for the buck.' Realizing inflation, and new programs like health care, I do not like seeing my taxes go up. THEN CONSIDER OUR STANDARD OF LIVING COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD. We Americans are doing quite well.

Taxpayers will take a hit on the new health care program, but I think President Obama made a good point about the words "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," making health care a right. Now, it is the law, and we have to make it work. Get the accountants to crunch the numbers, and 70 years from now, just like with Social Security, we will have shown ourselves as a people who are compassionate, efficient, and fiscally conservative to have passed the Democratic Health care plan. I don't recall who said it, but the Obama/Biden health care plan is not welfare, it is a national insurance coverage package for all citizens.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Seems to me that the 47% that doesn't pay any Federal Income tax would benefit the most.

Yeah, living in poverty is wonderful. The rich got their riches thanks in part to our government, infrastructure, and stability, which is what my point was.

And the rich are hardly suffering from their higher % of taxes being paid. I don't understand why so many complain about the rich paying so much in taxes when I assume most of the people making those complaints aren't rich themselves.

I got rich and the government had nothing to do with it. Hell I quit school at 15 was in prison at 17. And now thirty years later I own two homes, a cattle ranch with over five thousand acres of land after selling two thousand acres to a real estate investor for 1.7 million five years ago I bought 10 acres of land and a house in Mexico. I partnered with a few friends and we purchased a Gulfstream G200, best investment I've made.

I started out in this world with nothing now I have everything I could ever want and all done through smart investments and hard fucking work which is something you liberal idiots don't seem to understand. The majority of the rich people in this country were not born rich they worked their asses off and made high risk investments that paid off.

 

[Oddball]

I'm thinking Gregg's a 1040 EZ filer and line 11 is somewhere around $0

I'll bet he gets a refund via "refundable tax credit".

 

[Oddball]

Seems to me that the 47% that doesn't pay any Federal Income tax would benefit the most.

Yeah, living in poverty is wonderful. The rich got their riches thanks in part to our government, infrastructure, and stability, which is what my point was.

And the rich are hardly suffering from their higher % of taxes being paid. I don't understand why so many complain about the rich paying so much in taxes when I assume most of the people making those complaints aren't rich themselves.

Because we understand that thievery is thievery, no matter how you dress it up or rationalize it as "fairness".

 

[Flopper]

I said taxes not income taxes. However, there a number of analogies using income tax.

 

[Foxfyre]

No need to balance the budget when you have asshats like gregg who think it ok to just steal more of your money. (never any more of their money)

And that's the scariest part of this whole thing, Soggy.

Leftists like DrGregg seem to think that it all is everybody's money and the government is entrusted to manage it. And government should determine how much each person will be blessed with rather than determine how much government can legitimately and lawfully take according to Constitutional guidelines.

And as long as this anti-American system mentality persists, especially among those who hold the power, we aren't going to be safe no matter what form of taxation we adopt.

A balanced budget Constitutional amendment? Great idea IF it doesn't include license for government to just take more and more of our money to fund more and more of its spending.

Fair tax? It could be designed to work, but we all have seen incremental creep in local sales taxes. Can you imagine how that would look if the Federal government was able to impose whatever increases it wanted in order to feed its out of control appetite?

Flat tax? My preference of all systems suggested, but not if Congress can just keep increasing the percentage.

VAT? I can't think of any better way to let Congress hide huge increases in the people's money confiscated.

The current progressive tax system? That's what we are debating isn't it? And that has created the dangerous situation and invitations for corruption that now exist.

We need to start all over with people in power that understand the fundamentals that our Founders understood.

 

[hboats]

Seems to me that the 47% that doesn't pay any Federal Income tax would benefit the most.

Yeah, living in poverty is wonderful. The rich got their riches thanks in part to our government, infrastructure, and stability, which is what my point was.

And the rich are hardly suffering from their higher % of taxes being paid. I don't understand why so many complain about the rich paying so much in taxes when I assume most of the people making those complaints aren't rich themselves.

I got rich and the government had nothing to do with it. Hell I quit school at 15 was in prison at 17. And now thirty years later I own two homes, a cattle ranch with over five thousand acres of land after selling two thousand acres to a real estate investor for 1.7 million five years ago I bought 10 acres of land and a house in Mexico. I partnered with a few friends and we purchased a Gulfstream G200, best investment I've made.

I started out in this world with nothing now I have everything I could ever want and all done through smart investments and hard fucking work which is something you liberal idiots don't seem to understand. The majority of the rich people in this country were not born rich they worked their asses off and made high risk investments that paid off.

Ok, now I hate you lonestar, you have way too much, and I don't have what you have. GIVE ME, GIVE ME, GIVE ME. You can't possibly deserve all of that when I don't have it. You need to give it to me, since I'm obviously SO MUCH more deserving of it than you are.

Sarcasm off

Good for you. I wish more people in this wonderful country had half of the self determination that you must have. But, honestly, if I were you I wouldn't have admitted to having been in prison to this message board, I'm sure there are a few here that will use that little bit of knowledge against you in the future.

Rick