Abu Ghraib Guards: We Were Scapegoats For Bush

[Xenophon]

You are full of shit.

There is no 'peer presure' to follow illeagal orders you dimwit.

It is your DUTY NOT TO OBEY an illegal order.

I agree that it's a duty not to obey an illegal order. But what if there's disagreement as to whether an order is legal or illegal?

Unlike these pretender clowns, i know the correct procedure in such a case.

You refuse the order, if the commanding authority tries to arrest you, you demand an article 32 hearing.

An illeagal order will last about about 10 seconds in the IG's hands before you are released and the person issuing the illeagal order is arrested.

The UCMJ is very clear on what you can and cannot do. It is not ambiguious in the slightest.

The pertinent sections are:

Section 16c(1)(c):

Lawfulness. A general order or regulation is lawful unless it is contrary to the Constitution, the laws of the United States, or lawful superior orders or for some other reason is beyond the authority of the official issuing it.

Section 14c(2)(a)(i):

Inference of lawfulness. A order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.

 

[Gunny]

WHERE was DICK cheney when these "bad apples" were on trial...WHY didn't he come out then and say they were just "following orders" ???

From The Times
May 2, 2009

‘Abu Ghraib US prison guards were scapegoats for Bush’ lawyers claim

Charles Graner plans to appeal against his conviction for abusing prisoners

Prison guards jailed for abusing inmates at the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq are planning to appeal against their convictions on the ground that recently released CIA torture memos prove that they were scapegoats for the Bush Administration.

The photographs of prisoner abuse at the Baghdad jail in 2004 sparked worldwide outrage but the previous administration, from President Bush down, blamed the incident on a few low-ranking “bad apples” who were acting on their own.

The decision by President Obama to release the memos showed that the harsh interrogation tactics were approved and authorised at the highest levels of the White House.

Some of the guards who were convicted of abuse want to return to court and argue that the previous administration sanctioned the abuse but withheld its role from their trials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

Bush isn't President. The guards were not scapegoats for Bush. Even IF Bush himself gave them the order to mistreat prisoners, it is every military person's duty to refuse to obey an unlawful order. There's no grey area here. They committed the crimes. Now they 're looking for a Get Out of Jail Free card and extremists like you who haven't figured out yet Bush isn't President anymore are more than willing to give it to them.

Does Obama pay your run a smokescreen for him, or what? Try paying attention to what's going on NOW, huh?

 

[Gunny]

You are full of shit.

There is no 'peer presure' to follow illeagal orders you dimwit.

It is your DUTY NOT TO OBEY an illegal order.

I agree that it's a duty not to obey an illegal order. But what if there's disagreement as to whether an order is legal or illegal?

There is no disagreement where the treatment of prisoners is concerned. It's spelled out quite clearly. I can't imagine at any point in my career having been told to purposefully abuse power and mistreat someone intentionally that I would have had ANY doubt that it was an unlawful order.

 

[Red Dawn]

"scapegoats"?

Hardly. We have all seen those pictures. Those fucks were enjoying themselves, and laughing and giggling up a storm.

They were sadists. And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

Sickening.

However, the numerberg principle applies. If BushCo ordered it, he needs to do more jail time that these sick sadists. The ones who order it are held to a higher standard than the peons who execute the order.

 

[Gunny]

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

No... the idiot is dead wrong... It is ILLEGAL to follow an ILLEGAL ORDER... PERIOD.

"I was following orders" is NOT a defense for unprofessional, conduct unbecoming... Anyone that has served damn well knows this, it is drilled into you in HOURS of training on the UCMJ and the rules of military conduct...

Abu Gharib was a JOKE... it was a runway unit where the leadership responsible FOR THAT UNIT FAILED miserably. That GW didn't lock that joint down, shut down the media on all matters relating to it and bust those boneheads from the CG down will forever be to his substantial regret... he allowed this to be bastardized and used against us by our enemies... and as anyone can plainly see, they're still at it.

Y'all are just too busy calling each other idiot to see the sense in the others argument.

Of course it's illegal to follow an illegal order. That has never stopped peer pressure from being used to subtly coerce compliance.

He is correct that ivory tower arguments have little to no effect in the down and dirty real world.

Bullshit, asshat. Peer pressure has nothing to do with it, nor is it an acceptable excuse. It is unlawful for military personnel to mistreat a prisoner, period.

 

[Gunny]

"scapegoats"?

Hardly. We have all seen those pictures. Those fucks were enjoying themselves, and laughing and giggling up a storm.

They were sadists. And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

Sickening.

However, the numerberg principle applies. If BushCo ordered it, he needs to do more jail time that these sick sadists. The ones who order it are held to a higher standard than the peons who execute the order.

I disagree with you starting 2nd sentence, paragraph 2. Most con message board posters did NOT defend the actions. And I was on 2 con message boards at the time. The ones who defended the actions were the exception, not the rule. Whether they were regarded as fraternity pranks or not is irrelevant. It was abuse of power and military personnel mistreating prisoners.

You know as well as I do the President of the US did not order any such crap, nor do I believe anyone else ordered it. That Army Nat'l Guard SSgt that was in charge was a sick bastard, as were the rest. You were right the first time. These idiots were getting their sadistic jollies.

No one in their right mind is going to order a bunch of junior enlisted to pull stupid stunts like that.

 

[Xenophon]

And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

I have been on dozens of boards, i don't remember anyone defending that.

In fact, I felt it was one of the biggest disgraces the US army ever had to bear.

It made the fight in Iraq harder and was caused by two people, a sick E-6 and an incompitent reserve Brigadier General who never bothered to inspect her own command and did everything she could to deflect responsibility off herself, which of course the Army didn't buy into, as the reduced her rank and retired her.

 

[Gunny]

And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

I have been on dozens of boards, i don't remember anyone defending that.

In fact, I felt it was one of the biggest disgraces the US army ever had to bear.

It made the fight in Iraq harder and was caused by two people, a sick E-6 and an incompitent reserve Brigadier General who never bothered to inspect her own command and did everything she could to deflect responsibility off herself, which of course the Army didn't buy into, as the reduced her rank and retired her.

Exactly. It was an embarrassment to ALL the US Armed Forces, so don't try to be greedy. The entire military was put on trial in the media and message boards for the actions of several Army Nat'l Guardsmen who were clearly acting on their own and just as clearly in violation of the law regarding the treatment of prisoners.

Had they been acting under orders they wouldn't have been enjoying themselves as much as they were.

 

[DavidS]

Now they want to say they were following orders?

they were grinning idiots who deserve whatever punishment they get.

I'm not big on the whole following orders thing anyway.

Uh, Jillian... they've been saying this for years. Everyone knows that their higher ups got their orders from Rumsfeld.

 

[garyd]

Then you don't have a clue foggy stupid orders and illegal orders aren't the same damn thing or even close. served 2 years and 7 months during the Viet Nam conflict. I got plenty of stupid orders but never and illegal one. Illegal orders are damned rare because the officer issuing them is going to do serious jail time and get a DD into the bargain.

 

[Bfgrn]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

Dumb ASS. So tell us why Bush and Company have not been charged? Congress has been controlled by the Democrats for over 2 years now. They PROMISED as soon as they took over they would uncover all the illegal activity and prosecute it.

Why hasn't anything been done? Because your precious Democrats are knee deep in EVERY decision made. They agreed to them and made NO complaints about any of them.

Any prosecution would include high ranking members of the current Democratic Congress.

Funny how a couple weeks ago we were all being told that we tortured people and now, after being handed her ass, Pelosi doesn't want to play that game, ehh.

But back to THIS case. NO ONE ordered these boozo's to do any of what they did. And it especially did not come from the White House. The criminals are in JAIL and their incompetent General got fired. I am betting lower level Officers in that chain of Command also got careers ended.

 

[editec]

No... the idiot is dead wrong... It is ILLEGAL to follow an ILLEGAL ORDER... PERIOD.

"I was following orders" is NOT a defense for unprofessional, conduct unbecoming... Anyone that has served damn well knows this, it is drilled into you in HOURS of training on the UCMJ and the rules of military conduct...

Abu Gharib was a JOKE... it was a runway unit where the leadership responsible FOR THAT UNIT FAILED miserably. That GW didn't lock that joint down, shut down the media on all matters relating to it and bust those boneheads from the CG down will forever be to his substantial regret... he allowed this to be bastardized and used against us by our enemies... and as anyone can plainly see, they're still at it.

Y'all are just too busy calling each other idiot to see the sense in the others argument.

Of course it's illegal to follow an illegal order. That has never stopped peer pressure from being used to subtly coerce compliance.

He is correct that ivory tower arguments have little to no effect in the down and dirty real world.

Bullshit, asshat. Peer pressure has nothing to do with it, nor is it an acceptable excuse. It is unlawful for military personnel to mistreat a prisoner, period.

Exccept for waterboarding them you mean?

 

[Bfgrn]

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

Dumb ASS. So tell us why Bush and Company have not been charged? Congress has been controlled by the Democrats for over 2 years now. They PROMISED as soon as they took over they would uncover all the illegal activity and prosecute it.

Why hasn't anything been done? Because your precious Democrats are knee deep in EVERY decision made. They agreed to them and made NO complaints about any of them.

Any prosecution would include high ranking members of the current Democratic Congress.

Funny how a couple weeks ago we were all being told that we tortured people and now, after being handed her ass, Pelosi doesn't want to play that game, ehh.

But back to THIS case. NO ONE ordered these boozo's to do any of what they did. And it especially did not come from the White House. The criminals are in JAIL and their incompetent General got fired. I am betting lower level Officers in that chain of Command also got careers ended.

Here...READ this...

Abu Ghraib head finds vindication in newly released memos - CNN.com

Retired Army Col. Janis Karpinski ...

Karpinski was one of two officers punished over the aggressive interrogations at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Throughout the ordeal, Karpinski maintained that she and her troops were following interrogation guidelines approved by top brass.

The memo, by then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee and then-Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury, allowed the use of such tactics as keeping a detainee naked and in some cases in a diaper, and putting detainees on a liquid diet. One memo said aggressive techniques such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation and slapping did not violate laws against torture absent the intent to cause severe pain.

"That is what we have been saying from the very beginning, that, wait a minute, why are you inside pointing the finger at me, why are you pointing the fingers at the soldiers here? There's a bigger story here."

The Senate Armed Forces Committee released a report Tuesday, five days after the memos were released, stating that senior Bush administration officials authorized aggressive interrogation techniques on suspected terrorists, despite concerns from military psychologists and attorneys.

The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. His OK prompted interrogators in Afghanistan and Iraq to adopt the aggressive techniques.

The guidance was delivered to Abu Ghraib by then-Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who was summoned to Baghdad from Guantanamo to evaluate the prison system.

"We had a myriad of problems in our -- in the prison system, not with detainees who were undergoing interrogations, but with Iraqi criminal prisoners," Karpinski said. "And instead of coming to give us support, he was sent specifically to work with the military intelligence interrogators to teach them the harsher techniques that were being used down in Guantanamo."

 

[sealybobo]

WHERE was DICK cheney when these "bad apples" were on trial...WHY didn't he come out then and say they were just "following orders" ???

From The Times
May 2, 2009

‘Abu Ghraib US prison guards were scapegoats for Bush’ lawyers claim

Charles Graner plans to appeal against his conviction for abusing prisoners

Prison guards jailed for abusing inmates at the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq are planning to appeal against their convictions on the ground that recently released CIA torture memos prove that they were scapegoats for the Bush Administration.

The photographs of prisoner abuse at the Baghdad jail in 2004 sparked worldwide outrage but the previous administration, from President Bush down, blamed the incident on a few low-ranking “bad apples” who were acting on their own.

The decision by President Obama to release the memos showed that the harsh interrogation tactics were approved and authorised at the highest levels of the White House.

Some of the guards who were convicted of abuse want to return to court and argue that the previous administration sanctioned the abuse but withheld its role from their trials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

I was screaming this back then. Why were privates taking the fall for what clearly Rumsefeld told them to do.

But its ok. Those prisoners were guilty. They should not have followed orders they knew were wrong/illegal.

Same way Obama can't give the CIA a free pass for "following orders".

If Eric Holder wants to prosecute interrogators, he can. That is not Obama's decision. It is above his pay grade.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You two are HILARIOUS , these people were prosecuted for CRIMES not for aggressive interrogation techniques. The enlisted Guards were getting their sadistic JOLLY'S not interrogating anyone. The Officers were punished for failing to lead and supervise.

 

[sealybobo]

You two are HILARIOUS , these people were prosecuted for CRIMES not for aggressive interrogation techniques. The enlisted Guards were getting their sadistic JOLLY'S not interrogating anyone. The Officers were punished for failing to lead and supervise.

YOU are hilarious if you think the officers, and Rumsfeld, didn't know what was going on. In fact, I don't even want to discuss it with you since you are so brainwashed/naive/gullable. Either that or you are lying because you approve of torture. Probably a combination of all 4.

Where were you the last 8 years? We were telling you/warning you all this shit was occuring and you guys didn't believe. You needed proof. And now you don't remember, or care.

Well thank God that people like you aren't running this country anymore. It was becoming embarrassing.

Yes RetardedGysgt, us liberal Americans are embarrassed by you so called Conservatives.

Isn't it funny that the word conservative is now a dirty/bad word? How's it feel? You did it to the word liberal, so we did it back. Now conservative has more to do with torture and collapsed economies than it does with fiscal restraint. No wonder, you guys didn't show any restraint or common sense.

 

[Bullypulpit]

From the Levin Senate Report...

"The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply a result of a few soldiers acting on their own," the Senate report says. "Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at (Guantánamo) ... Rumsfeld's authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officers conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody. What followed was an erosion in standards dictating that detainees be treated humanely." [/url]

The abuses at Abu Ghraib coincided with the arrival of Major General Geoffrey Miller, former GITMO commander. General George Fay wrote in the Taguba Report that,

Policies and practices developed and approved for use on Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees [in Afghanistan and Guantánamo] who were not afforded the protection of the Geneva Conventions, now applied to detainees who did fall under the Geneva Conventions' protections.

So let's address your points...

FUNNY AS HELL, they haven't a leg to stand on and you should know that.

First they were not interrogating prisoners, they were abusing them.

They were given orders, vague orders, by intel officers to "soften up" the prisoners. Failing to seek clarification of those orders, however, is no excuse.

Second they were not using the approved methods authorized by the Government.

As the memos released recently show, stress positions, dogs, sleep deprivation and other techniques WERE authorized by the Bush administration. Techniques which were authorized for use against alleged Al Qaida operatives who were being held in Afghanistan and Iraq...prisoners who, at that time, were held not to be covered under the Geneva Conventions...were being used against Iraqi prisoners who were all covered under the Geneva Conventions. The SCOTUS in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld ruled that detainees at GITMO were indeed covered under Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.

Third no one ordered them to do what they did.

Testimony from their courts martial show otherwise.

And FOURTH, the Appeal goes through the military which is NOT a civilian Court and the Lawyers are not going to be allowed to make sensationalist statements in the hopes of swaying a Judge or Jury. They can not make random claims with NO EVIDENCE that disparages Officers either. They can not make claims against the Prosecution with out concrete evidence.

Ohh and they had a mandatory APPEAL when convicted.

Guess what else? The military does not give one rats ass what some civilian paper implies or lies about their criminal Court system.

I am betting the Military does not even grant an appeal.

It would seem that the Bush administration anticipated this as Art. 73 of the UCMJ was amended on Jan 8, 2008, as was Article 76 pertaining to the Finality of Proceedings, Findings and Sentences, to limit petitions for a new trial to no more than two years after the original sentence was passed. After that, there is no appeal despite the discovery of new evidence...evidence withheld by the government these men and women were acting on behalf of.

 

[Bfgrn]

You two are HILARIOUS , these people were prosecuted for CRIMES not for aggressive interrogation techniques. The enlisted Guards were getting their sadistic JOLLY'S not interrogating anyone. The Officers were punished for failing to lead and supervise.

YOU are hilarious if you think the officers, and Rumsfeld, didn't know what was going on. In fact, I don't even want to discuss it with you since you are so brainwashed/naive/gullable. Either that or you are lying because you approve of torture. Probably a combination of all 4.

Where were you the last 8 years? We were telling you/warning you all this shit was occuring and you guys didn't believe. You needed proof. And now you don't remember, or care.

Well thank God that people like you aren't running this country anymore. It was becoming embarrassing.

Yes RetardedGysgt, us liberal Americans are embarrassed by you so called Conservatives.

Isn't it funny that the word conservative is now a dirty/bad word? How's it feel? You did it to the word liberal, so we did it back. Now conservative has more to do with torture and collapsed economies than it does with fiscal restraint. No wonder, you guys didn't show any restraint or common sense.

sealybobo...
Guy like Sarge believe that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are just the good guys fighting off the bad guys...

Chuck Hagel, a Republican Senator and war veteran said: "I have to say this is one of the most arrogant, incompetent administrations I've ever seen or ever read about"

That arrogance doesn't end with "bad guys" it applies to fellow Americans too...

Back in 2006, I was covering northern Florida for my company. I stopped for lunch in a restaurant in Palatka, which is south of Jacksonville. If you're not familiar with that area, it is military; JAX NAS, Naval Station Mayport and The Army’s Replacement Training Center, known as Camp Blanding, located near Starke.

In the booth across from me was a retired couple originally from Ohio. They were there to visit their son. We started talking, starting with our children. The conversation moved to current affairs and then about the war in Iraq…the mother related a story about their son; he was plant manager for a subcontractor that made components for military aircraft.

Her son got to meet Donald Rumsfeld when he paid the plant a visit. At that time his plant was behind on delivery of a particular component due to having unacceptable failure rates of a critical part. Well, Mr. Secretary was NOT happy! Her son explained to Mr. Secretary the delay was due to unacceptable failure rates, and added, “We want to get it right sir, because there are American lives involved.”

Mr. Rumsfeld replied: WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THAT MAKE!!!

What else do you need to know about Donald Rumsfeld?

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

No... the idiot is dead wrong... It is ILLEGAL to follow an ILLEGAL ORDER... PERIOD.

"I was following orders" is NOT a defense for unprofessional, conduct unbecoming... Anyone that has served damn well knows this, it is drilled into you in HOURS of training on the UCMJ and the rules of military conduct...

Abu Gharib was a JOKE... it was a runway unit where the leadership responsible FOR THAT UNIT FAILED miserably. That GW didn't lock that joint down, shut down the media on all matters relating to it and bust those boneheads from the CG down will forever be to his substantial regret... he allowed this to be bastardized and used against us by our enemies... and as anyone can plainly see, they're still at it.

Y'all are just too busy calling each other idiot to see the sense in the others argument.

Of course it's illegal to follow an illegal order. That has never stopped peer pressure from being used to subtly coerce compliance.

He is correct that ivory tower arguments have little to no effect in the down and dirty real world.

Oh... well sure, adhere to the principle and then rush to rationalize an excuse to abandon it...

Brilliant!

But here's the thing... "I was following subtly coerced peer pressure, despite knowing the order was illegal... " is also not a valid defense... It's an admission of the poor character; It's an overt admission of guilt...

Now I understand what you're saying, I fully comprehend the scope of your argument; it's specious reasoning which has resulted in a spurious conclusion; it's invalid, wrong-headed and absurd on its face.

Feel better now?