Abu Ghraib Guards: We Were Scapegoats For Bush

[Bfgrn]

WHERE was DICK cheney when these "bad apples" were on trial...WHY didn't he come out then and say they were just "following orders" ???

From The Times
May 2, 2009

‘Abu Ghraib US prison guards were scapegoats for Bush’ lawyers claim

Charles Graner plans to appeal against his conviction for abusing prisoners

Prison guards jailed for abusing inmates at the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq are planning to appeal against their convictions on the ground that recently released CIA torture memos prove that they were scapegoats for the Bush Administration.

The photographs of prisoner abuse at the Baghdad jail in 2004 sparked worldwide outrage but the previous administration, from President Bush down, blamed the incident on a few low-ranking “bad apples” who were acting on their own.

The decision by President Obama to release the memos showed that the harsh interrogation tactics were approved and authorised at the highest levels of the White House.

Some of the guards who were convicted of abuse want to return to court and argue that the previous administration sanctioned the abuse but withheld its role from their trials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

 

[jillian]

Now they want to say they were following orders?

they were grinning idiots who deserve whatever punishment they get.

I'm not big on the whole following orders thing anyway.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

FUNNY AS HELL, they haven't a leg to stand on and you should know that.

First they were not interrogating prisoners, they were abusing them.

Second they were not using the approved methods authorized by the Government.

Third no one ordered them to do what they did.

And FOURTH, the Appeal goes through the military which is NOT a civilian Court and the Lawyers are not going to be allowed to make sensationalist statements in the hopes of swaying a Judge or Jury. They can not make random claims with NO EVIDENCE that disparages Officers either. They can not make claims against the Prosecution with out concrete evidence.

Ohh and they had a mandatory APPEAL when convicted.

Guess what else? The military does not give one rats ass what some civilian paper implies or lies about their criminal Court system.

I am betting the Military does not even grant an appeal.

 

[editec]

They may have felt they had the liberty to abuse prisoners, but they elected to do that on their own.

I say they AND their chain of command need to be stripped of uniform.

I feel EXACTLY the same way about any tool of the truly evil men who sometimes take control, for what that's worth.

I'd have hanged the prison guards in the concentration camps right along with the monsters who order those camps.

Evil exists not simply because evil men gain power, but because evil men also willingly do their bidding.

 

[foggedinn]

This is a misuse of the term "scapegoat".

A scapegoat is an innocent on whom evil acts are lain. (ref: Leviticus 16)

What's happening here is more akin to the way we prosecute the war on drugs. We convict and imprison street level drug dealers and tell ourselves that we've done what the law requires. To go higher on the food chain is not pc.

 

[garyd]

When the low levels go beyond where the legal limits were placed they've no one to blame but themsleves. In fact, in this case it is they who are trying to scapegoat their superiors. Assholes caught with there fingers in the pie are always trying to find some way to weasel out of the punishment they got for sticking their fingers where they didn't belong in the first place.

 

[Xenophon]

Bullshit.

They are guilty as sin and they know it.

Anyone who has served can tell you that when you get an illeagal order you refuse to obey it.

They had no such orders from above, it was all about a sadistic prick and incompitent CO.

 

[Bfgrn]

Bullshit.

They are guilty as sin and they know it.

Anyone who has served can tell you that when you get an illeagal order you refuse to obey it.

They had no such orders from above, it was all about a sadistic prick and incompitent CO.

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

 

[elvis]

Bullshit.

They are guilty as sin and they know it.

Anyone who has served can tell you that when you get an illeagal order you refuse to obey it.

They had no such orders from above, it was all about a sadistic prick and incompitent CO.

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Do you have proof that the government ORDERED these soldiers to abuse the prisoners?

 

[auditor0007]

WHERE was DICK cheney when these "bad apples" were on trial...WHY didn't he come out then and say they were just "following orders" ???

From The Times
May 2, 2009

‘Abu Ghraib US prison guards were scapegoats for Bush’ lawyers claim

Charles Graner plans to appeal against his conviction for abusing prisoners

Prison guards jailed for abusing inmates at the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq are planning to appeal against their convictions on the ground that recently released CIA torture memos prove that they were scapegoats for the Bush Administration.

The photographs of prisoner abuse at the Baghdad jail in 2004 sparked worldwide outrage but the previous administration, from President Bush down, blamed the incident on a few low-ranking “bad apples” who were acting on their own.

The decision by President Obama to release the memos showed that the harsh interrogation tactics were approved and authorised at the highest levels of the White House.

Some of the guards who were convicted of abuse want to return to court and argue that the previous administration sanctioned the abuse but withheld its role from their trials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

Orders for harsh interrogation tactics were not given directly to them. While certain tactics may have been used on certain prisoners, they did not have authorization to randomly terrorize prisoners. These were just guards gone bad, and they got what they deserved.

 

[Xenophon]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

 

[foggedinn]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

FUNNY AS HELL, they haven't a leg to stand on and you should know that.

First they were not interrogating prisoners, they were abusing them.

Second they were not using the approved methods authorized by the Government.

Third no one ordered them to do what they did.

And FOURTH, the Appeal goes through the military which is NOT a civilian Court and the Lawyers are not going to be allowed to make sensationalist statements in the hopes of swaying a Judge or Jury. They can not make random claims with NO EVIDENCE that disparages Officers either. They can not make claims against the Prosecution with out concrete evidence.

Ohh and they had a mandatory APPEAL when convicted.

Guess what else? The military does not give one rats ass what some civilian paper implies or lies about their criminal Court system.

I am betting the Military does not even grant an appeal.

Can't rep ya... but that is so spot on it DESERVES ONE!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

LOL... Oh GOD... that was BRUTAL! And absolutely HILARIOUS!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

No... the idiot is dead wrong... It is ILLEGAL to follow an ILLEGAL ORDER... PERIOD.

"I was following orders" is NOT a defense for unprofessional, conduct unbecoming... Anyone that has served damn well knows this, it is drilled into you in HOURS of training on the UCMJ and the rules of military conduct...

Abu Gharib was a JOKE... it was a runway unit where the leadership responsible FOR THAT UNIT FAILED miserably. That GW didn't lock that joint down, shut down the media on all matters relating to it and bust those boneheads from the CG down will forever be to his substantial regret... he allowed this to be bastardized and used against us by our enemies... and as anyone can plainly see, they're still at it.

 

[Sinatra]

You are so full of it, your breath smells like shit...

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

People that refuse to follow orders are ostracized, punished and subjected to ridicule by higher ups AND peers that comply...

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Get off your self righteous horse and look at REALITY...

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

 

[foggedinn]

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

No... the idiot is dead wrong... It is ILLEGAL to follow an ILLEGAL ORDER... PERIOD.

"I was following orders" is NOT a defense for unprofessional, conduct unbecoming... Anyone that has served damn well knows this, it is drilled into you in HOURS of training on the UCMJ and the rules of military conduct...

Abu Gharib was a JOKE... it was a runway unit where the leadership responsible FOR THAT UNIT FAILED miserably. That GW didn't lock that joint down, shut down the media on all matters relating to it and bust those boneheads from the CG down will forever be to his substantial regret... he allowed this to be bastardized and used against us by our enemies... and as anyone can plainly see, they're still at it.

Y'all are just too busy calling each other idiot to see the sense in the others argument.

Of course it's illegal to follow an illegal order. That has never stopped peer pressure from being used to subtly coerce compliance.

He is correct that ivory tower arguments have little to no effect in the down and dirty real world.

 

[Xenophon]

I've served, and bfgrn is correct in his assessment.

Bullshit.

By the grace of God, I was never in a position to even be given illegal orders. I was given stupid orders several times. I recognized that I was being given these orders just to see if I would obey them. I did. An honorable discharge was the end result.

Bullshit again.

 

[Xenophon]

Y'all are just too busy calling each other idiot to see the sense in the others argument.

Of course it's illegal to follow an illegal order. That has never stopped peer pressure from being used to subtly coerce compliance.

He is correct that ivory tower arguments have little to no effect in the down and dirty real world.

You are full of shit.

There is no 'peer presure' to follow illeagal orders you dimwit.

It is your DUTY NOT TO OBEY an illegal order.

 

[jillian]

You are full of shit.

There is no 'peer presure' to follow illeagal orders you dimwit.

It is your DUTY NOT TO OBEY an illegal order.

I agree that it's a duty not to obey an illegal order. But what if there's disagreement as to whether an order is legal or illegal?