Abu Ghraib Guards: We Were Scapegoats For Bush

[PubliusInfinitum]

From the Levin Senate Report...

"The abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 was not simply a result of a few soldiers acting on their own," the Senate report says. "Interrogation techniques such as stripping detainees of their clothes, placing them in stress positions and using military working dogs to intimidate them appeared in Iraq only after they had been approved for use in Afghanistan and at (Guantánamo) ... Rumsfeld's authorization of aggressive interrogation techniques and subsequent interrogation policies and plans approved by senior military and civilian officers conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment for detainees in U.S. military custody. What followed was an erosion in standards dictating that detainees be treated humanely." [/url]

The abuses at Abu Ghraib coincided with the arrival of Major General Geoffrey Miller, former GITMO commander. General George Fay wrote in the Taguba Report that,

Policies and practices developed and approved for use on Al Qaeda and Taliban detainees [in Afghanistan and Guantánamo] who were not afforded the protection of the Geneva Conventions, now applied to detainees who did fall under the Geneva Conventions' protections.

So let's address your points...



They were given orders, vague orders, by intel officers to "soften up" the prisoners. Failing to seek clarification of those orders, however, is no excuse....

Now had you stopped right here... you'd have had a terrific argument.

One can't recognize that the orders were vague and illegal and that such doesn't constitute an excuse and then immediately turn to rationalize that such was a valid excuse.

The Soldiers were trained to know better... but that training was undermined by poor leadership.

Sound leadership would have required written orders outlining acceptable procedures... Sound leadership would have prevented photographs of those procedures to be taken; Sound leadership would have prohibited the sending of such photographs home... and so on...

"vague orders" are not orders... sound leadership doesn't accept non-orders as orders and doesn't allow their command to be subjected to the catastrophic certainty of such...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

you two are hilarious , these people were prosecuted for crimes not for aggressive interrogation techniques. The enlisted guards were getting their sadistic jolly's not interrogating anyone. The officers were punished for failing to lead and supervise.

you are hilarious if you think the officers, and rumsfeld, didn't know what was going on. In fact, i don't even want to discuss it with you since you are so brainwashed/naive/gullable. Either that or you are lying because you approve of torture. Probably a combination of all 4.

Where were you the last 8 years? We were telling you/warning you all this shit was occuring and you guys didn't believe. You needed proof. And now you don't remember, or care.

Well thank god that people like you aren't running this country anymore. It was becoming embarrassing.

Yes retardedgysgt, us liberal americans are embarrassed by you so called conservatives.

Isn't it funny that the word conservative is now a dirty/bad word? How's it feel? You did it to the word liberal, so we did it back. Now conservative has more to do with torture and collapsed economies than it does with fiscal restraint. No wonder, you guys didn't show any restraint or common sense.

epic fail!

 

[jillian]

And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

I have been on dozens of boards, i don't remember anyone defending that.

In fact, I felt it was one of the biggest disgraces the US army ever had to bear.

It made the fight in Iraq harder and was caused by two people, a sick E-6 and an incompitent reserve Brigadier General who never bothered to inspect her own command and did everything she could to deflect responsibility off herself, which of course the Army didn't buy into, as the reduced her rank and retired her.

Xeno,

Be careful before defending Rushbo... he says some pretty indefensible stuff:

This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?"

Rush: MPs Just 'Blowing Off Steam' - CBS News

 

[driveby]

WHERE was DICK cheney when these "bad apples" were on trial...WHY didn't he come out then and say they were just "following orders" ???

From The Times
May 2, 2009

‘Abu Ghraib US prison guards were scapegoats for Bush’ lawyers claim

Charles Graner plans to appeal against his conviction for abusing prisoners

Prison guards jailed for abusing inmates at the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq are planning to appeal against their convictions on the ground that recently released CIA torture memos prove that they were scapegoats for the Bush Administration.

The photographs of prisoner abuse at the Baghdad jail in 2004 sparked worldwide outrage but the previous administration, from President Bush down, blamed the incident on a few low-ranking “bad apples” who were acting on their own.

The decision by President Obama to release the memos showed that the harsh interrogation tactics were approved and authorised at the highest levels of the White House.

Some of the guards who were convicted of abuse want to return to court and argue that the previous administration sanctioned the abuse but withheld its role from their trials.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

I haven't broken these out in a while, but this doo doo is well deserving, a pair for sealybozo as well.......

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

And we all remember rush limbuagh and most con message board posters defending these actions as little more than fraternity pranks.

I have been on dozens of boards, i don't remember anyone defending that.

In fact, I felt it was one of the biggest disgraces the US army ever had to bear.

It made the fight in Iraq harder and was caused by two people, a sick E-6 and an incompitent reserve Brigadier General who never bothered to inspect her own command and did everything she could to deflect responsibility off herself, which of course the Army didn't buy into, as the reduced her rank and retired her.

Xeno,

Be careful before defending Rushbo... he says some pretty indefensible stuff:

This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?"

Rush: MPs Just 'Blowing Off Steam' - CBS News

Yeah... because El Rushbo wasn't heaping on the sarcasm when he said this... and he wasn't saying it to offset the faux outrage of the people who spend a fair amount of their time defending NAMBLA, The Homosexual Lifestyle and who stand and applaud when the flat bed of bare assed, chap-clad nipple-scroat peirced, chained up queers... who wanted to make SO MUCH of it...

What's more is Rush is probably right... They probably were blowing off some steam...

Of course, 'blowing off steam, by stacking naked Muslims' is not conduct which becomes a soldier tasked with housing prisoners... thus it is decidedly against the rules and in the best of times, such behavior would result in the same charges, the same courtsmartial and the same sanctions brought against them.

 

[Xenophon]

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

I always enjoy how clueless morons post about things they have no idea about, are made fools of, and then pretend it didn't happen like you just did shiteater.

 

[Xenophon]

Here...READ this...

Yopu read it Shiteater, Karpinski was busted in rank for her incompitence and has tried to blame everyone else for what went on under her command.

The army didn't buy her nonsense, they reduced her rank and retired her, they should have tried her.

And HER testimony is what you cling too?

Asshole.

 

[Xenophon]

Xeno,

Be careful before defending Rushbo... he says some pretty indefensible stuff:

I never 'defended' Rushbo, be careful saying I did things i did not.

RD said he saw a lot of people on message boards defending that, i saw no such thing.

 

[jillian]

Xeno,

Be careful before defending Rushbo... he says some pretty indefensible stuff:

I never 'defended' Rushbo, be careful saying I did things i did not.

RD said he saw a lot of people on message boards defending that, i saw no such thing.

Well, technically, I guess saying you saw no such thing wasn't an actual defense. But on this board at the time, I can assure you that the dittoheads were in full bloom.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

I always enjoy how clueless morons post about things they have no idea about, are made fools of, and then pretend it didn't happen like you just did shiteater.

Couldn't pos-rep ya for this...

POS-REP; Alternative - one each:

Surgical accuracy... and hilarious to boot!

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Xeno,

Be careful before defending Rushbo... he says some pretty indefensible stuff:

I never 'defended' Rushbo, be careful saying I did things i did not.

RD said he saw a lot of people on message boards defending that, i saw no such thing.

Well, technically, I guess saying you saw no such thing wasn't an actual defense. But on this board at the time, I can assure you that the dittoheads were in full bloom.

I wasn't on this board at the time, but I took the same position as Rush... And I did so because the left wanted to turn it into Auschwitz... and the position advanced by Rush was to put into perspective... To lend the severity... IN TERMS OF THE POTENTIAL DAMAGE to the prisoners valid CONTEXT.

A position I still maintain... which is wholly isolated from the position I hold against those who put the US war on Terror at risk... who dishonored themselves and their Unit and misrepresented the institution and the nation they served through their actions.

So where the left wants to utilize that abuse as a means to undermine the US GWOT... they have no case, and I won't allow the valid case against those responsible to be used as a means to undermine the US Military or the means by which they do their JOB... which they do with honor... and through sacrifices that most of you people have no means to even comprehend.

 

[Meister]

That is your own breath you smell, from the rim job you just gave your boyfriend shiteater.

Wrong again asshole, these matters go to the IG for review, this is the military, not your nambla society meetings.

Says the dickwad talking to a vet.

You don't know jack shit about the military pougue, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut, lest you be mocked even further, if that is possible.

X destroys another partisan leftist.

Well done!

I always enjoy how right wing pea brains always run in packs, and how they always declare faux victory, then cut & run... if I had a dollar for every right wing pea brain I challenged to a debate that mysteriously disappeared, I'd be a millionaire...

Personally, I think they just get tired of arguing with blantant stupidity coming from a pea brain.

 

[Bfgrn]

How is it that right wing pea brains ALWAYS defend GOVERNMENT?

 

[Indiana Oracle]

FUNNY AS HELL, they haven't a leg to stand on and you should know that.

First they were not interrogating prisoners, they were abusing them.

Second they were not using the approved methods authorized by the Government.

Third no one ordered them to do what they did.

And FOURTH, the Appeal goes through the military which is NOT a civilian Court and the Lawyers are not going to be allowed to make sensationalist statements in the hopes of swaying a Judge or Jury. They can not make random claims with NO EVIDENCE that disparages Officers either. They can not make claims against the Prosecution with out concrete evidence.

Ohh and they had a mandatory APPEAL when convicted.

Guess what else? The military does not give one rats ass what some civilian paper implies or lies about their criminal Court system.

I am betting the Military does not even grant an appeal.

Agree.

 

[Meister]

How is it that right wing pea brains ALWAYS defend GOVERNMENT?

You just proved my point.

 

[Bfgrn]

How is it that right wing pea brains ALWAYS defend GOVERNMENT?

You just proved my point.

WHEN do you right wing pea brains NOT support GOVERNMENT...

THIS should be interesting...

 

[Meister]

How is it that right wing pea brains ALWAYS defend GOVERNMENT?

You just proved my point.

WHEN do you right wing pea brains NOT support GOVERNMENT...

THIS should be interesting...

Please refer to post #52

 

[Bfgrn]

[/B]

You just proved my point.

WHEN do you right wing pea brains NOT support GOVERNMENT...

THIS should be interesting...

Please refer to post #52

Proof of Meister's cowardice...Please refer to post #57

 

[garyd]

Funny you all have the government now dim wit I haven't seen any of us defending the current adminsitration have you?

You sir are a typicla leftist tool who can't get his mind off of BDS long enough to effectively deal with reality.

 

[Bfgrn]

Funny you all have the government now dim wit I haven't seen any of us defending the current adminsitration have you?

You sir are a typicla leftist tool who can't get his mind off of BDS long enough to effectively deal with reality.

No gar, you don't defend government when it trys to help American citizens, but not a PEEP from right wing pea brains when we rebuild Iraq's infrastructure...

Right wing pea brains don't SEE BIG 3 trillion dollar wars, BIG military, BIG federal prison systems, BIG drug gestapo, BIG surveillance programs and BIG corporations writing bills for Republican Congressmen and Senators to screw the middle class as BIG government...

JUST when government helps the poor or middle class, or regulates corporate crooks do you right wing pea brains defend the oligarchy and elite...

My belief; it stems from right wing pea brain DEEP insecurity and LOW self esteem...

"We are not worthy of tax breaks Hussein, please give mine to the elite...PLEASE!"