A Thought Experiment

[ABikerSailor]

My choice? Spring the kid outta the closet and tell the people of the town that they are responsible for their own lives, so they better learn how to human up to keep the suffering at bay and preserve the good fortune.

You make your own luck.

If you are living free and happy at the expense and suffering of another? You're a total douche who needs to have their thinking corrected by an ass kicking.

Hopefully, you keep out of the morgue.

 

[Kalam]

Forcing an innocent human being to suffer is unethical. If someone had consented to being in this position, however, or earned it by committing a crime, it would be justifiable.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Forcing an innocent human being to suffer is unethical. If someone had consented to being in this position, however, or earned it by committing a crime, it would be justifiable.

Forcing an innocent to suffer is unethical? Then please Kalam, explain that demon cult you follow called IsLAME. I mean, they like to cause suffering on others as well as themselves with suicide bombers.

Wanna explain that asshole?

 

[Rubber Hoser]

Infidels should either be converted or killed. kalam, go copy&paste the passage from the sand bible that says it, we don't have enough copy&pasting from the cowran here yet.

 

[Avatar4321]

im not sure i see the point of this thought exercise. What does it accomplish?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

im not sure i see the point of this thought exercise. What does it accomplish?

I didn't see the point either thats why I chose an "outside the box" option and just said that I'm going to leave town and move somewhere where I can be responsible for myself without getting blamed for someone else's suffering.

 

[N4mddissent]

Some of you may have read "Those Who Walk Away From Omelas" by Ursula K. LeGuin, and understand the point she was making.

I want to use her story here to see how those of us on USMB respond to it, and perhaps get an idea why.

If you wish to read the whole short story, visit this site: http://harelbarzilai.org/words/omelas.txt

Here it is in paraphrased summary:

The citizens of the town of Omelas are happy. The fields are fruitful, they're economy productive, and each citizen lives with plenty. They work hard and everyone is responsible only for themselves which works well as everyone has what they need. Life is beautiful for each and every person, but...

The only reason why everything is going so well is because in the cellar of one of the large houses in the town of Omelas is a small storage closet and in this closet is a child. (I know there isn't any logic to that but this is just a thought experiement). The child is kept in the dark, uncomfortable closet, fed enough to survive, is somewhat mistreated, but for the most part ignored and neglected. Everyone in town is aware of the child and its suffering.

So as long as this child is kept in that room the citizens of Omelas live plentiful, productive, happy lives. But, each day one or a few of the citizens of Omelas leave never to return. Now why would that be? Why would they wish to leave what practically equates to a paradise or utopia?

If the vast majority of people in the town live long, peaceful lives without strife or lack of necessity just because one child suffers, isn't it worth it? If all the other children grow up healthy, strong, moral, educated, and happy, doesn't that outweigh the suffering of only one child?

If so, why do you think so?

If not, why do you believe that?

There are two conclusions that can be reached by how one responds to this story. The obvious one has to do with what one perceives as morally right or good, and the other I will reveal later.

Please respond with your opinions.

It seems a very disturbing moral dilemna, but the part about others leaving and never returning puts an interesting twist. My first instinct is to question whether the child in the closet actually makes their lives good or is just their tradition, and question whether their sense of a good life is objectively good. Did you intend those to be hypothetical givens, premises accepted for argument's sake?

 

[L.K.Eder]

im not sure i see the point of this thought exercise. What does it accomplish?

I didn't see the point either thats why I chose an "outside the box" option and just said that I'm going to leave town and move somewhere where I can be responsible for myself without getting blamed for someone else's suffering.

totally outside the box..

the title is "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"

They leave Omelas, they walk ahead into the darkness, and they
do not come back. The place they go towards is a place even less
imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe
it at all. It is possible that it does not exist. But they seem to
know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

i'd like to state that i would walk away from paradise or try to shake it all up by freeing the child.

but i know myself. i am not a hero. i would find some way of rationalizing and coping mechanism. and stay right where i am enjoying paradise.

occasionally i would have a guilt attack, and do something awful to compensate. maybe beat the wife or the kids, or terrorize employees.

then i would drink a lot of whiskey, e.g.

if i was lucky i'd be dead sooner than necessary. maybe killed by some other asshole who could not cope with this situation either.



who provides our "first-world" luxuries and makes our "paradise" possible?

some poor kids in a factory who are stitching together our brand-new sneakers (200 $)

FUCK YEAH!

 

[Fatality]

Actually the child represents your ignorance. The argument you are making is to keep the child in the closet. Suppose I am in kidney failure and you are a perfect match. Does my right to life give me a right to one of your kidneys or does your individual sovereignty give you freedom of choice that supersedes my respective rights? The argument that you are making is that we are not our own sovereigns; that is, my individual rights supersede yours. That being the case, why, for common good, shouldn't the child remain in the closet? Wouldn't it be immoral to let the child out and all of society suffer?

shut the fuck up you idiot, the kid is your dirty little secret, its your imorality, its your shame

i would let the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass for oppressing him

50 million dead to make fuckers like you feel good

I thought he made a fairly good point there

of course you think that, since he is a moron like you and just made up a bunch of bullshit and tried to lay it in my lap in the same way your are doing.

like I said I would break the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass, I would provide him with weapons to kill his opressors. then he would take the town and posses it for himself and others seeking to be free from the opressive thumb of anti-liberty fuckholes.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

This thought experiment has two kinds of response.

One is, is the individual more important than the whole? Can you be happy if one person suffers for your prosperity? Anyone without antisocial disorder would say, "No. I can't be happy knowing someone else suffers so that I can live this way." This morality or ethical intuition feels good for individualists like Americans who profoundly hold to be true that individual freedom is more important than the good of the whole. But, the other part...

L.K. Eder got it, so did editec. LeGuin was a socialist. In a striated class system those on the bottom have the least opportunity to find material success or even middling success, while those on top have the best chance to remain on top. In order for capitalism to work there have to be burger flippers, janitors, bus drivers, cherry pickers, converyor belt observors at manufacturing factories who get paid as little as the company can pay them and still attract them. Not everyone can be successful materially, even with hard work and never giving up some people just won't get the big break or have the luck to really see their careers take off. Instead they may never own a home, or if they do, its in a lousy part of town. They will never know what its like to drive a nice car, or take long vacations anywhere in the world, or eat caviar (which isn't missing out cause caviar is nasty), or have any experiences beyond working, coming home, raising a family, struggling to get by, and being a consumer slave to large corporations just to keep a job to keep food on the table and a roof over his/her family's heads.

For a few to have wealth and power, there has to be many who have not. Without poverty and without the working class the wealthy elite would not exist. Without ubiquitous comsumerism and constant class struggle companies like Walmart, McDonalds, Budweiser - companies that mass produce or mass purchase from outside the country so that its cheap even though its shit, who pay their employees as little as possible because all that matters is the bottom line, wouldn't continue to profit. Companies like those who provide health insurance and take the average joe's money but do everything they can NOT to pay claims to those who paid for their service.

Someone has to suffer in order for capitalism to exist.

Socialism does not take away individual freedom. It does not curtail success. It simply takes the focus of power away from money and puts it into the lives of those who live by its philosophies. It ensures that most or any people at all don't have to suffer to make other people wealthier. It gets rid of the wealthy and the impoverished. And it isn't perfect, but its better than someone suffering for your prosperity.

 

[Kalam]

Forcing an innocent human being to suffer is unethical. If someone had consented to being in this position, however, or earned it by committing a crime, it would be justifiable.

Forcing an innocent to suffer is unethical? Then please Kalam, explain that demon cult you follow called IsLAME. I mean, they like to cause suffering on others as well as themselves with suicide bombers.

Wanna explain that asshole?

If you have something to say about my religion, do so in an appropriate thread.

 

[xsited1]

...

Socialism does not take away individual freedom. It does not curtail success. It simply takes the focus of power away from money and puts it into the lives of those who live by its philosophies. It ensures that most or any people at all don't have to suffer to make other people wealthier. It gets rid of the wealthy and the impoverished. And it isn't perfect, but its better than someone suffering for your prosperity.

Totally and absolutely false. It is truly amazing that you have deluded yourself into believing that. That explains your wacky response to one of my posts.

Your mission is clear: move to a Socialist country. Good luck with that.

 

[iagainsti]

shut the fuck up you idiot, the kid is your dirty little secret, its your imorality, its your shame

i would let the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass for oppressing him

50 million dead to make fuckers like you feel good

I thought he made a fairly good point there...did you actually read anything he said, or are you just gonna keep spitting out the same thing over and over no matter what else is said? That always makes for great conversation.

And since when does abortion make liberals feel good? I wasn't aware that all over the country, millions of liberals wake up early every morning to take their dogs for a walk down to the local Planned Parenthood and say, "Ahhhh...I love the sound of abortions in the morning!" What's the point of dragging the abortion issue into this at all? Do you HAVE a point?

of course you think that, since he is a moron like you and just made up a bunch of bullshit and tried to lay it in my lap in the same way your are doing.

like I said I would break the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass, I would provide him with weapons to kill his opressors. then he would take the town and posses it for himself and others seeking to be free from the opressive thumb of anti-liberty fuckholes.

There doesn't even seem to be much point in replying to you, since you're obviously a dickshit with a nice big brick wall built around your brain, but here it goes anyway:

What bullshit, exactly, was it that I made up and tried to lay in your lap? I'd be interested for you to tell me what it was, because I don't remember making up anything new, only commenting on what you said, and asking you whether you bothered to read PeterS's post before replying to it and whether you had a point...

So, thanks for providing me with even more proof that you don't bother to read anything before spitting out a bunch of meaningless insults that have nothing to do with what's being discussed. Way to add so much to the conversation YET AGAIN.

And also, why is it you'd be "waging war on my ass?" Because again, if you had bothered to read anything, you'd know that I was not in favor of keeping the child locked up.

 

[JW Frogen]

Never, never, ever, experiment with thought.

That shit will kill ya.

 

[PeterS]

the child in the closet represents 50 million abortions so liberals can feel good about themselves

Actually the child represents your ignorance. The argument you are making is to keep the child in the closet. Suppose I am in kidney failure and you are a perfect match. Does my right to life give me a right to one of your kidneys or does your individual sovereignty give you freedom of choice that supersedes my respective rights? The argument that you are making is that we are not our own sovereigns; that is, my individual rights supersede yours. That being the case, why, for common good, shouldn't the child remain in the closet? Wouldn't it be immoral to let the child out and all of society suffer?

shut the fuck up you idiot, the kid is your dirty little secret, its your imorality, its your shame

i would let the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass for oppressing him

50 million dead to make fuckers like you feel good

The room is only a metaphor. The child can only be released by allowing individual sovereignty which you will never do because to do so you have to allow for choice. And I do love the "teach war" part. Hatred is such a wonderful tool to enslave with isn't it.

Shame, shame...

 

[PeterS]

shut the fuck up you idiot, the kid is your dirty little secret, its your imorality, its your shame

i would let the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass for oppressing him

50 million dead to make fuckers like you feel good

I thought he made a fairly good point there

of course you think that, since he is a moron like you and just made up a bunch of bullshit and tried to lay it in my lap in the same way your are doing..

Bull shit? It's a simple question: I need a kidney and yours is a perfect match. I have a right to life correct? That is your argument isn't it? So does my right to life give me a right to your kidney or does your individual sovereignty mean that I can only have it if it is your choice? Which is it? And it is in your lap my friend. Can you answer or are you just going to leave it lying there...

 

[Fatality]

I thought he made a fairly good point there...did you actually read anything he said, or are you just gonna keep spitting out the same thing over and over no matter what else is said? That always makes for great conversation.

And since when does abortion make liberals feel good? I wasn't aware that all over the country, millions of liberals wake up early every morning to take their dogs for a walk down to the local Planned Parenthood and say, "Ahhhh...I love the sound of abortions in the morning!" What's the point of dragging the abortion issue into this at all? Do you HAVE a point?

of course you think that, since he is a moron like you and just made up a bunch of bullshit and tried to lay it in my lap in the same way your are doing.

like I said I would break the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass, I would provide him with weapons to kill his opressors. then he would take the town and posses it for himself and others seeking to be free from the opressive thumb of anti-liberty fuckholes.

There doesn't even seem to be much point in replying to you, since you're obviously a dickshit with a nice big brick wall built around your brain, but here it goes anyway:

What bullshit, exactly, was it that I made up and tried to lay in your lap? I'd be interested for you to tell me what it was, because I don't remember making up anything new, only commenting on what you said, and asking you whether you bothered to read PeterS's post before replying to it and whether you had a point...

So, thanks for providing me with even more proof that you don't bother to read anything before spitting out a bunch of meaningless insults that have nothing to do with what's being discussed. Way to add so much to the conversation YET AGAIN.

And also, why is it you'd be "waging war on my ass?" Because again, if you had bothered to read anything, you'd know that I was not in favor of keeping the child locked up.

every thing he said to me about what he imagined i said was some fucknut psycho bulllshit. he invented his fucknuttery and then laid it in my lap.

he didnt even come close to what i said, he just jacked off thought it felt good and went on his merry dipshit way, then you come along and agree with his contrived lunacy. so that makes two of ya.

So, since you agreed with him, that means you wanted the kid to stay in the closet because that is what he was arguing. that is why i would teach the kid to wage war on your ass. socialists who keep people locked away to have a boogyman they can persecute and pretend their lives have meaning deserve nothing less. overthrowing opressors requires force, giving the kid a means of force is giving him liberation

 

[PeterS]

...

Socialism does not take away individual freedom. It does not curtail success. It simply takes the focus of power away from money and puts it into the lives of those who live by its philosophies. It ensures that most or any people at all don't have to suffer to make other people wealthier. It gets rid of the wealthy and the impoverished. And it isn't perfect, but its better than someone suffering for your prosperity.

Totally and absolutely false. It is truly amazing that you have deluded yourself into believing that. That explains your wacky response to one of my posts.

Your mission is clear: move to a Socialist country. Good luck with that.

Ok, say I move to Canada. Explain how I am any less free?

 

[Fatality]

Actually the child represents your ignorance. The argument you are making is to keep the child in the closet. Suppose I am in kidney failure and you are a perfect match. Does my right to life give me a right to one of your kidneys or does your individual sovereignty give you freedom of choice that supersedes my respective rights? The argument that you are making is that we are not our own sovereigns; that is, my individual rights supersede yours. That being the case, why, for common good, shouldn't the child remain in the closet? Wouldn't it be immoral to let the child out and all of society suffer?

shut the fuck up you idiot, the kid is your dirty little secret, its your imorality, its your shame

i would let the kid out and teach him to wage war on your ass for oppressing him

50 million dead to make fuckers like you feel good

The room is only a metaphor. The child can only be released by allowing individual sovereignty which you will never do because to do so you have to allow for choice. And I do love the "teach war" part. Hatred is such a wonderful tool to enslave with isn't it.

Shame, shame...

again, more fucknuttery from a pinhead. you sit there and read that i said i would release the kid and teach him to make war on your pathetic ass and then you claim i would not do it. youre a fucking moron.

 

[Fatality]

...

Socialism does not take away individual freedom. It does not curtail success. It simply takes the focus of power away from money and puts it into the lives of those who live by its philosophies. It ensures that most or any people at all don't have to suffer to make other people wealthier. It gets rid of the wealthy and the impoverished. And it isn't perfect, but its better than someone suffering for your prosperity.

Totally and absolutely false. It is truly amazing that you have deluded yourself into believing that. That explains your wacky response to one of my posts.

Your mission is clear: move to a Socialist country. Good luck with that.

Ok, say I move to Canada.

please do