A Single Challenge for the Denier Community

[westwall]

Funny that the world's climate scientists don't agree with you at all.

Appeals to authority, especially to those losers, doesn't help your case.

We've had this out before. Appeals to authority are perfectly valid if the "authorities" really are the experts in the field and if their really does exist a consensus.

Where are your authorities? Where is your consensus?

No, they're not. Appeals to authority are ALWAYS logical fallacies. As for who is my authority, look around. The planet and its mechanisms are my authority. I am a "naturalist".

 

[westwall]

National Weather Service in (insert location) - The National Weather Service has issued a tornado warning. If you are in the path of this tornado, take shelter immediately...

Skookerasshat - the "authorities" in the field ALWAYS cite the most extreme data!!!

Ahhhh yes, the ever popular comparison of the apple with the horse shoe.

 

[flacaltenn]

Can anyone show me ONE recent paper (besides from Judith Curry) that lays out the climate or a PORTION of the climate in a block diagram form and derives the forcings, feedbacks, delays, storage, heat transfer functions, etc in a form suitable for modeling? Any paper that addresses that addresses whether the climate as a whole is unstable, underdamped or overdamped to a step input of solar irradiation or any other forcing? A SYSTEMS LEVEL description of the AMO and PDO and the underlying mechanisms that make them cyclical events??

THAT would be Climate Science.. What we got is tea leaf readers and curve matchers that largely don't KNOW the canonical requirements for a stable system.. Or how to analyze a black box system using Linear/Non-Linear/Stochastic Systems tools. That probably never took basic thermodynamics and have less statistics prep than a research physician..

YET --- you think they're doing swell and spending time wisely devining and refining GLOBAL AVERAGES of every parameter they use. Thus AVOIDING the hard work of actually understanding how the Climate System works. Because they don't NEED it if everything is dumbed downed to Global Average form. From a systems standpoint -- that's as foolhardy as attempting to understand and track a flu outbreak by issuing rectal thermometers and taking city, state, and national averages of body temperature..

 

[orogenicman]

You do realize, of course, that the average/normal human body temperature is just that, an average, right? You didn't know this? Huh.

 

[flacaltenn]

Funny that the world's climate scientists don't agree with you at all.

Appeals to authority, especially to those losers, doesn't help your case.

We've had this out before. Appeals to authority are perfectly valid if the "authorities" really are the experts in the field and if their really does exist a consensus.

Where are your authorities? Where is your consensus?

No, they're not. Appeals to authority are ALWAYS logical fallacies. As for who is my authority, look around. The planet and its mechanisms are my authority. I am a "naturalist".

Can you ask your Authority questions and get suitable answers? WestWall has an investment in observation of the natural world being ground truth. More than adequate juris prudence there. Whereas -- observation of man-made models -- not so much..

I for instance cant get an answer from "authority" as to how the BTK data actually addresses the "missing surface heat" in a 15 year time span.. And YOU cant get an answer of how many more hurricanes or tornadoes that a 1degC rise would cause or the average annual temperature of Sidney Australia in 2059...

So even IF you're relying SOLELY on authority -- if they can't OR WONT answer questions, and they WILL NOT DEBATE in the open --- you are just bunch of dupes.. Especially if you CONTINUE to flock to sources that are KNOWN manipulators of the conclusions..

 

[flacaltenn]

You do realize, of course, that the average/normal human body temperature is just that, an average, right? You didn't know this? Huh.

That would be true. And divining the state average body temperature would require that you qualify all your answers in terms of statistical significance given the frailties of the data. A quite useless exercize to be doing when people are gonna die..

So did YOU NOT KNOW --- that dendochronology accuracy is a LOT MORE vague than the statistical distribution of human body temperature. So VAGUE in fact, that outliers sometimes EXCEED the limits of your detection threshold or have to be discarded?

Great observation dude, but pass out those rectal thermometers, because they are better than the tea leaves you are reading to get GLOBAL averages..

 

[orogenicman]

We've had this out before. Appeals to authority are perfectly valid if the "authorities" really are the experts in the field and if their really does exist a consensus.

Where are your authorities? Where is your consensus?

No, they're not. Appeals to authority are ALWAYS logical fallacies. As for who is my authority, look around. The planet and its mechanisms are my authority. I am a "naturalist".

Can you ask your Authority questions and get suitable answers? WestWall has an investment in observation of the natural world being ground truth. More than adequate juris prudence there. Whereas -- observation of man-made models -- not so much..

I for instance cant get an answer from "authority" as to how the BTK data actually addresses the "missing surface heat" in a 15 year time span.. And YOU cant get an answer of how many more hurricanes or tornadoes that a 1degC rise would cause or the average annual temperature of Sidney Australia in 2059...

So even IF you're relying SOLELY on authority -- if they can't OR WONT answer questions, and they WILL NOT DEBATE in the open --- you are just bunch of dupes.. Especially if you CONTINUE to flock to sources that are KNOWN manipulators of the conclusions..

Since climate change science addresses global change rather than regional weather, your point, whatever it was, is moot.

 

[flacaltenn]

Funny that the world's climate scientists don't agree with you at all.

Appeals to authority, especially to those losers, doesn't help your case.

Right, let's appeal to former DJs and message therapists.

Or comic book editors at skepticalscience?? True story...

 

[flacaltenn]

No, they're not. Appeals to authority are ALWAYS logical fallacies. As for who is my authority, look around. The planet and its mechanisms are my authority. I am a "naturalist".

Can you ask your Authority questions and get suitable answers? WestWall has an investment in observation of the natural world being ground truth. More than adequate juris prudence there. Whereas -- observation of man-made models -- not so much..

I for instance cant get an answer from "authority" as to how the BTK data actually addresses the "missing surface heat" in a 15 year time span.. And YOU cant get an answer of how many more hurricanes or tornadoes that a 1degC rise would cause or the average annual temperature of Sidney Australia in 2059...

So even IF you're relying SOLELY on authority -- if they can't OR WONT answer questions, and they WILL NOT DEBATE in the open --- you are just bunch of dupes.. Especially if you CONTINUE to flock to sources that are KNOWN manipulators of the conclusions..

Since climate change science addresses global change rather than regional weather, your point, whatever it was, is moot.

No --- Your comprehension of the climate is deficient.. The climate runs on major thermal pathways. Pathways that are a very small fraction of the surface area.. Things like the major currents, jet streams, temperature DIFFERENTIALS between the tropics and the poles. IN FACT -- The earth has MORE THAN ONE CLIMATE zone -- in case you haven't noticed... And they RESPOND DIFFERENTLY for reasons we SHOULD be understanding better. Instead --- we're averaging into every element of climate into a stupid single number.. Just like in my flu example. If you think folks are gonna die --- Perhaps the science methods should "grow up" a little quicker.. Can't afford to wait 20 years to discover that most of the heating gets sunk into the sea. Or that it's been warmer in the past 1000 years..

 

[PredFan]

How useless is arguing with one of the warming fanatics? After 70 posts in this thread, Abraham3 will probably later claim that no one ever accepts his challenge.

 

[westwall]

Can anyone show me ONE recent paper (besides from Judith Curry) that lays out the climate or a PORTION of the climate in a block diagram form and derives the forcings, feedbacks, delays, storage, heat transfer functions, etc in a form suitable for modeling? Any paper that addresses that addresses whether the climate as a whole is unstable, underdamped or overdamped to a step input of solar irradiation or any other forcing? A SYSTEMS LEVEL description of the AMO and PDO and the underlying mechanisms that make them cyclical events??

THAT would be Climate Science.. What we got is tea leaf readers and curve matchers that largely don't KNOW the canonical requirements for a stable system.. Or how to analyze a black box system using Linear/Non-Linear/Stochastic Systems tools. That probably never took basic thermodynamics and have less statistics prep than a research physician..

YET --- you think they're doing swell and spending time wisely devining and refining GLOBAL AVERAGES of every parameter they use. Thus AVOIDING the hard work of actually understanding how the Climate System works. Because they don't NEED it if everything is dumbed downed to Global Average form. From a systems standpoint -- that's as foolhardy as attempting to understand and track a flu outbreak by issuing rectal thermometers and taking city, state, and national averages of body temperature..

Very well said. The one thing that permeates climate science today is laziness. They really don't do anything hard. It's amazing what they pass off as research, it truly is.

 

[orogenicman]

Can you ask your Authority questions and get suitable answers? WestWall has an investment in observation of the natural world being ground truth. More than adequate juris prudence there. Whereas -- observation of man-made models -- not so much..

I for instance cant get an answer from "authority" as to how the BTK data actually addresses the "missing surface heat" in a 15 year time span.. And YOU cant get an answer of how many more hurricanes or tornadoes that a 1degC rise would cause or the average annual temperature of Sidney Australia in 2059...

So even IF you're relying SOLELY on authority -- if they can't OR WONT answer questions, and they WILL NOT DEBATE in the open --- you are just bunch of dupes.. Especially if you CONTINUE to flock to sources that are KNOWN manipulators of the conclusions..

Since climate change science addresses global change rather than regional weather, your point, whatever it was, is moot.

No --- Your comprehension of the climate is deficient.. The climate runs on major thermal pathways. Pathways that are a very small fraction of the surface area.. Things like the major currents, jet streams, temperature DIFFERENTIALS between the tropics and the poles. IN FACT -- The earth has MORE THAN ONE CLIMATE zone -- in case you haven't noticed... And they RESPOND DIFFERENTLY for reasons we SHOULD be understanding better. Instead --- we're averaging into every element of climate into a stupid single number.. Just like in my flu example. If you think folks are gonna die --- Perhaps the science methods should "grow up" a little quicker.. Can't afford to wait 20 years to discover that most of the heating gets sunk into the sea. Or that it's been warmer in the past 1000 years..

None of which refutes what I said. And flaciditeen, everyone dies. Not everyone dies well. Are you willing to die for the sake of Exxon/Mobile's profit margin?

 

[westwall]

Can you ask your Authority questions and get suitable answers? WestWall has an investment in observation of the natural world being ground truth. More than adequate juris prudence there. Whereas -- observation of man-made models -- not so much..

I for instance cant get an answer from "authority" as to how the BTK data actually addresses the "missing surface heat" in a 15 year time span.. And YOU cant get an answer of how many more hurricanes or tornadoes that a 1degC rise would cause or the average annual temperature of Sidney Australia in 2059...

So even IF you're relying SOLELY on authority -- if they can't OR WONT answer questions, and they WILL NOT DEBATE in the open --- you are just bunch of dupes.. Especially if you CONTINUE to flock to sources that are KNOWN manipulators of the conclusions..

Since climate change science addresses global change rather than regional weather, your point, whatever it was, is moot.

No --- Your comprehension of the climate is deficient.. The climate runs on major thermal pathways. Pathways that are a very small fraction of the surface area.. Things like the major currents, jet streams, temperature DIFFERENTIALS between the tropics and the poles. IN FACT -- The earth has MORE THAN ONE CLIMATE zone -- in case you haven't noticed... And they RESPOND DIFFERENTLY for reasons we SHOULD be understanding better. Instead --- we're averaging into every element of climate into a stupid single number.. Just like in my flu example. If you think folks are gonna die --- Perhaps the science methods should "grow up" a little quicker.. Can't afford to wait 20 years to discover that most of the heating gets sunk into the sea. Or that it's been warmer in the past 1000 years..

Another excellent observation. The Big Island of Hawaii alone enjoys multiple climates. The only ones it doesn't have are arctic and deep desert. All on an island that's only around 4,000 square miles in extent.

 

[Kosh]

You do realize, of course, that the average/normal human body temperature is just that, an average, right? You didn't know this? Huh.

But not everyone's temperature is the same some are constant at 98.6, some at 98, some at 97.8, some at 99.

However unlike the human body the Earth has not really had an average temperature since it's creation and has fluctuated wildly. An average was created based on 200 years of temperature records and not starting at the history of the planet.

Although it is said that the most accurate temperature recordings have only happened in the last 15 years. So an average of the last 15 years is not a good gauge of what the average should be.

Then again leave it to the AGW cultists to compare the Human body to the Earth (Gaia).

 

[westwall]

Since climate change science addresses global change rather than regional weather, your point, whatever it was, is moot.

No --- Your comprehension of the climate is deficient.. The climate runs on major thermal pathways. Pathways that are a very small fraction of the surface area.. Things like the major currents, jet streams, temperature DIFFERENTIALS between the tropics and the poles. IN FACT -- The earth has MORE THAN ONE CLIMATE zone -- in case you haven't noticed... And they RESPOND DIFFERENTLY for reasons we SHOULD be understanding better. Instead --- we're averaging into every element of climate into a stupid single number.. Just like in my flu example. If you think folks are gonna die --- Perhaps the science methods should "grow up" a little quicker.. Can't afford to wait 20 years to discover that most of the heating gets sunk into the sea. Or that it's been warmer in the past 1000 years..

None of which refutes what I said. And flaciditeen, everyone dies. Not everyone dies well. Are you willing to die for the sake of Exxon/Mobile's profit margin?

Are you willing to die so that Goldman Sachs can make a few hundred billion? At least Exxon provides us with something useful.

 

[flacaltenn]

Exxon Mobil is only a small sector of the CO2 problem..
Are you willing to tackle ALL of them? Are you willing to die because $$Trills went to CO2 abatement and useless renewables and guilt payments to Seychelles Islands for phoney claims --- instead of funding MediCaid and MediCare and cancer research??

 

[orogenicman]

Exxon Mobil is only a small sector of the CO2 problem..

Right. They are only the world's largest publicly traded international oil and gas company. Small potatoes.

 

[flacaltenn]

Exxon Mobil is only a small sector of the CO2 problem..

Right. They are only the world's largest publicly traded international oil and gas company. Small potatoes.

They generate NO electricity, farm no cattle, and cut down no forests to build parking lots.
Yes.. They are only one small part of the CO2 problem. And its NOT Exxon Mobil that is burning the fuel. It's the Post Office, FedEx, the Railroads, the Airlines, our factories, the Coast Guard, DisneyWorld, Greyhound, the Highway Patrol and me...