A question from a conservative to the conservatives

[Reality]

Wrong, I am voting for the MUCH lesser evil of McCain over Obama. Those are the two real choices and they give me no choice BUT to vote for McCain.

As for Bush , again in 2004 my choice was between Bush and that idiot Kerry. No brainer there.

Exactly. You are compromising your values and voting for someone who you don't believe holds your values.

See, I am a liberal. I will not vote for Sen. Obama because he is a member of the Democratic Party. In concert with the Republican Party, both parties have used perversion of the law to virtually destroy any chances of a viable third party candidate for any national office. That is the most important issue facing our nation today: the monopoly of the two party system. I will cast my protest vote for Mr. Nader because he is exactly right on this, the most important issue. No, I do not believe Mr. Nader would be a good president, but I will not compromise my values to vote for a candidate of a party who has gone to lengths to hinder the democratic aspects of our republic.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Exactly. You are compromising your values and voting for someone who you don't believe holds your values.

See, I am a liberal. I will not vote for Sen. Obama because he is a member of the Democratic Party. In concert with the Republican Party, both parties have used perversion of the law to virtually destroy any chances of a viable third party candidate for any national office. That is the most important issue facing our nation today: the monopoly of the two party system. I will cast my protest vote for Mr. Nader because he is exactly right on this, the most important issue. No, I do not believe Mr. Nader would be a good president, but I will not compromise my values to vote for a candidate of a party who has gone to lengths to hinder the democratic aspects of our republic.

Yet you admit he would not be a good president, sounds to me LIKE you sold out as much as you claim I did. But don't let that Irony seep in, it may ruin your day.

 

[Reality]

Yet you admit he would not be a good president, sounds to me LIKE you sold out as much as you claim I did. But don't let that Irony seep in, it may ruin your day.

I'll gladly sell out to democratic principles over restricting political participation through legislation. I'll gladly sell out to bringing more ideas into the political spectrum over a party two clicks to the right of the other or vice versa.

 

[nomdeplume]

I'll gladly sell out to democratic principles over restricting political participation through legislation. I'll gladly sell out to bringing more ideas into the political spectrum over a party two clicks to the right of the other or vice versa.

What are these new ideas? Lie about everything, flipflop on everything, forge documents, suck the dick of special interest(hello ethanol), raise taxes on essentially everyone while saying it's only the evil rich people being taxed, windfall taxes on those other evil people that chose to go into businesses that are largely recession proof? That we should talk to the terrorist and despots of the world?

.

 

[Alpha1]

Doug asked some extremely thoughtful questions in another thread.

His questions are so penetrating that I think they deserve their own thread. I would dearly love to see those of you who strenuously object to what you believe "liberalism" stands for, answer these questions for the benefit of we who are apparently too dumb to understand the brilliance of the conservative mind.



Do you think that Doug is right?

Is the average American drifting toward the "left?"

Yeah, the average citizen is drifting to the left and has been for many years.....in short, the average citizen is being bought and bribed

If you think they are, what issues of the day do you think are causing this?

Liberals(the left) are great at feeding class envy,...pitting the have nots against the haves...taking through taxation from the haves and giving goods and services to the have nots, thus winning their votes and support...being careful enough not to completely strip the haves of too much....They play this delicate game with a talent that rivals Tiger Woods golf game.....

Do you think that the "right" has superior solutions to that issues, and if so, what are they and why is the average American unable to see why the "right's" solution is a better one?

The right has no "solutions" as such....other than to preach personal responsibility and to try to give everyone an equal opportunity to succeed in life....to tax only the extent that government can function with its responsibilities, that is ... the country's protection, build and maintain infrastructure, assist individuals, towns, states, etc., in case of calamity....but to otherwise butt out of citizens personal lives and actions that do not harm others....

Do you think that the Americans drifting to left are doing so just because they're not smart enough to see why your solutions are superior, or do you believe that they are communists at heart?

Americans will continue to support the left as long as their greed is satisfied .... and "they" happen to be in the majority and not the minority that pays for their greed

Do you believe that the Bush administration's proformance in the last two terms has helped the conservative cause or hurt it?

Perception....cleverly driven by main stream media and the politicians that are driven by power, is the main cause of what average citizens believe....from the state of the economy to the state of the country's morals....

If you believe that the Bush Administration's has hurt the conservative movement, what would you have done differently if you had been POTUS?

....People will support and vote for those that give them what they cannot or will not earn for themselves....if you fall from a ladder because your a clumsy moron, and one person says, " You must be more careful" and another says, "It wasn't your fault, the ladder is defective and the manufacturer must compensate you $10000"....who do you think will be the "good guy".....who will get the support, who will get the vote....

 

[jreeves]

Doug asked some extremely thoughtful questions in another thread.

His questions are so penetrating that I think they deserve their own thread. I would dearly love to see those of you who strenuously object to what you believe "liberalism" stands for, answer these questions for the benefit of we who are apparently too dumb to understand the brilliance of the conservative mind.



Do you think that Doug is right?

Is the average American drifting toward the "left?"

If you think they are, what issues of the day do you think are causing this?

Do you think that the "right" has superior solutions to that issues, and if so, what are they and why is the average American unable to see why the "right's" solution is a better one?

Do you think that the Americans drifting to left are doing so just because they're not smart enough to see why your solutions are superior, or do you believe that they are communists at heart?

Do you believe that the Bush administration's proformance in the last two terms has helped the conservative cause or hurt it?

If you believe that the Bush Administration's has hurt the conservative movement, what would you have done differently if you had been POTUS?

The question is, did we really have an economic conservative in the White House the last 7 years? The answer is no, he has increased governmental spending more than LBJ, leading to the devaluation of the dollar.

 

[Paulie]

....People will support and vote for those that give them what they cannot or will not earn for themselves....if you fall from a ladder because your a clumsy moron, and one person says, " You must be more careful" and another says, "It wasn't your fault, the ladder is defective and the manufacturer must compensate you $10000"....who do you think will be the "good guy".....who will get the support, who will get the vote....

That would depend. Was the ladder actually defective? I work on ladders everyday, and you better believe if I get hurt because of a defective ladder, I'm seeking compensation. It is the business' responsibility to provide a safe product, considering how they are used.

In a case like that, I'd be pretty pissed at someone for merely saying "you should have been more careful".

 

[editec]

Thoughtful answers from many of you. thanks.

Here's my take on economic reditribution...

The MILITARY IS ECONOMIC REDISTRIBUTION, public roads are too,. As are airports, sports stadiums, public education, police, welfare, the FBI, CIA, NASA, FDA, and on and on and on..

EVERYTHING THAT IS PAID FOR BY PUBLIC TAXATION IS ECONOMIC REDISTRIBUTION.

Now unless you are an anarchist, you support economic distribution in principle.

Pretending, as some of you do, that you are making it all on your own, and that you are not beneficiaries of some form of economic redistribution is comforting, I am sure, but mostly self-delusional bullshit.

We all benefit from a viable society to some extent.

And the wealthier you are the more you benefit from having that viable society in place..

 

[midcan5]

The greatest threat of a McCain presidency is the selection of more ideologues to the supreme court and other courts. America was founded on laws that supported the freedom of the individual to privacy and control over their own lives. Bush has been selecting ideologues for seven years and you see the results in wire tapping, corporate corruption, torture, and the loss of habeas corpus. Should McCain select fascists similar to Scalia, individual freedom will be lost to religious fanaticism and corporate power.

A vote for McCain is a vote against the fundamental principles of America.

 

[Reality]

What are these new ideas? Lie about everything, flipflop on everything, forge documents, suck the dick of special interest(hello ethanol), raise taxes on essentially everyone while saying it's only the evil rich people being taxed, windfall taxes on those other evil people that chose to go into businesses that are largely recession proof? That we should talk to the terrorist and despots of the world?

.

lies like Iraq has mobile weapons production labs?

flipflops like anyone involved in the Plame affair will be fired?

forged documents like Iraq trying to buy uranium from Niger?

suck the dick of special interests like continuing no-bid contract to companies who can't account for large portions of their billing?

Just wondering.

 

[editec]

Flip flopping like deciding that you do NOW support the tax breaks for billionaires?

Also, just wondering

 

[jreeves]

There is a difference between funding and a social agenda that instills class warfare as a tax policy. When the top 50% of wage earners pay 98% of income taxes there is something seriously flawed with the tax system. Since the top 50% get far less benefits from the system than does the bottom 50% of wage earners. Income redistribution that uses class warfare as its leading principle is wrong period....

 

[editec]

There is a difference between funding and a social agenda that instills class warfare as a tax policy. When the top 50% of wage earners pay 98% of income taxes there is something seriously flawed with the tax system. Since the top 50% get far less benefits from the system than does the bottom 50% of wage earners. Income redistribution that uses class warfare as its leading principle is wrong period....

When that happens let me know.

I know you believe that is true, but that is not true. that is part of the story and when part of the story is all that's told, it is also known as a lie by misdirection, sport, something the neocons like to do to confuse people you into becoming class traitors.

That is not true because that half truth completely ignores all taxes but income taxes.

Most of the taxes paid in this nation are paid by the middle class in the form of user taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, fees, fines and so forth.

MOST of what it takes to run the SOCIAL SYSTEMS WE AALL DEPEND ON are paid for by the WORKING CLASSES, not the superwealth whose lies you have bought into.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

When that happens let me know.

I know you believe that is true, but that is not true. that is part of the story and when part of the story is all that's told, it is also known as a lie by misdirection, sport, something the neocons like to do to confuse people you into becoming class traitors.

That is not true because that half truth completely ignores all taxes but income taxes.

Most of the taxes paid in this nation are paid by the middle class in the form of user taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, fees, fines and so forth.

MOST of what it takes to run the SOCIAL SYSTEMS WE AALL DEPEND ON are paid for by the WORKING CLASSES, not the superwealth whose lies you have bought into.

It is a simple concept. Below a certain level you pay no income tax, above that EVERYONE pays the same percent. Just because Fred can make more money then John does not equal Fed should pay a higher percent of what he earned so Ralph doesn't have to work at all.

Completely wrong.

Flat tax with few or NO loopholes, few deductions. Everyone pays their fair share.

 

[Reality]

It is a simple concept. Below a certain level you pay no income tax, above that EVERYONE pays the same percent. Just because Fred can make more money then John does not equal Fed should pay a higher percent of what he earned so Ralph doesn't have to work at all.

Completely wrong.

Flat tax with few or NO loopholes, few deductions. Everyone pays their fair share.

Flat tax just puts it back on the middle class. Go to sales tax and cut the IRS by 2/3rds. Everyone pays, no evasion, its transparent and it puts the burden on consumption, not income.

 

[jreeves]

When that happens let me know.

I know you believe that is true, but that is not true. that is part of the story and when part of the story is all that's told, it is also known as a lie by misdirection, sport, something the neocons like to do to confuse people you into becoming class traitors.

That is not true because that half truth completely ignores all taxes but income taxes.

Most of the taxes paid in this nation are paid by the middle class in the form of user taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, fees, fines and so forth.

MOST of what it takes to run the SOCIAL SYSTEMS WE AALL DEPEND ON are paid for by the WORKING CLASSES, not the superwealth whose lies you have bought into.

Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As of June 2001, the income tax forms the bulk of taxes collected by the U.S. government.[citation needed] Depending on individual income, the tax ranges from zero to 35% of one's taxable income.

The income tax is considered a progressive tax because the tax rate is higher as a percentage of the income for higher-income individuals. For an example showing the tax rates imposed by Congress in 1954 on the taxable income of unmarried individuals—with rates as high as 91%—see the chart at Internal Revenue Code of 1954.

Income tax is also imposed on the taxable income of most corporations and again on dividends paid to stockholders, although individuals usually pay a preferential tax rate on dividends; this is sometimes referred to as double taxation.

One fairly unique aspect of federal income tax in the United States, is that the U.S. uses citizenship in addition to residency in determining whether a person's income is subject to U.S. taxation. All U.S. citizens, including those who do not live in the United States, are subject to U.S. income tax on their worldwide income. There are provisions that exist to reduce double-taxation. Most other countries do not impose tax on their citizens who are not resident within their borders, unless they have income which is sourced in that country (and even then they only tax that specific income).[citation needed]

 

[Alpha1]

When that happens let me know.

I know you believe that is true, but that is not true. that is part of the story and when part of the story is all that's told, it is also known as a lie by misdirection, sport, something the neocons like to do to confuse people you into becoming class traitors.

That is not true because that half truth completely ignores all taxes but income taxes.

Most of the taxes paid in this nation are paid by the middle class in the form of user taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, fees, fines and so forth.

MOST of what it takes to run the SOCIAL SYSTEMS WE AALL DEPEND ON are paid for by the WORKING CLASSES, not the superwealth whose lies you have bought into.

"When that happens, let me know" ???

Whats the point in debating someone that will just deny the truth and ignore facts....there is no point....libs feed class war and class envy....that just happens to be a fact now the same as it was a fact 100 years ago....
Its a liberal (Dem) constant....redistribute wealth from the successful to not so successful....

The middle class pay more taxes in the form of gas tax? RE tax? sales tax?

Thats just plain nonsense....

EVERYONE that buys gas, or buys a stereo, or owns a home pays these taxes....what "class" you belong to is irrelevant...
Graduated tax rates are by definition "Marxist"....thats just a plain unarguable fact.... anytime a citizen is treated better or worse than their neighbor is probably wrong....
EQUAL treatment under the law used to be a virtue of the US ..... now its just a meaningless cliche'

 

[greenpartyaz]

There are several things that the republicans have done that have caused the “throw the bums out” mentality. This is the reason why the 2006 sweep of the house and senate took place. First of all the Republicans were trusted to handle this war with Afghanistan, and it eventually turned into Iraq. With the Republican's “lemmings to the sea” mentality, and never questioning Bush, as to the validity of his case to go into Iraq. They could have put up a fight to stop Bush from making this grave mistake, but they didn't. They just went along with the war profit gravy train into Iraq led by a White House marinated in oil. Dwight Eisenhower would have never done such a thing in the first place. Next, the facts of the intelligence were “fixed around the policy” of the Bush administration, according to the British “Downing Street Memo”. Bush didn't rely on facts of the intelligence. He made stuff up. There was no “Yellow Cake Uranium”. There were no mobile weapons labs. Colin Powell resigned because he felt betrayed by the Bush administration, who in turn made him testify, with a little vile of Anthrax, that the intelligence to go into Iraq was a “knockout” of proof that Iraq was hiding WMD's. When the fact is that we destroyed most if not all of his stockpile of weapons that Ronald Regan probably sold him at the hands of Donald Rumsfeld in the 80's. Next, the Bush administration has carried on the policy of the Military to deny former servicemen who were Gulf War veterans that “Gulf War Syndrome” exists. Which is probably a medical side effect from being exposed to detonated biological and chemical weapons that Saddam had back in 1991, when we destroyed their stockpile in the first place. I happen to personally know some of these people, who are afflicted with these medical conditions, so I know this isn't just some “liberal crybaby” as some of you would like to believe. This is one in a series of things along with Bush cutting the military medical funding for VA benefits. The Republicans were nowhere to be found shouting from the hills that Bush has cut funding to the military VA hospitals. It took a “liberal” film-maker, to expose the deplorable conditions at Walter Reed Medical Facility. A year before CNN finally broke the story. Bush's “love” for the military, and veterans is remarkable! And the Republicans did nothing to stop Bush. They just kept in line with other Republicans. The Democratic sweep of Congress, has been stalled by Bush's veto power. So Congress has been left “neutered” in their ability to stop Bush. They have been left ineffective to get anything done as a hand of Bush's veto. Next, the Republicans have been trying to get rid of Social Security ever since FDR drafted the “New Deal”, because it resembles too much of a “socialist” handout. They have been trying to dismantle it ever since. Capitalism has failed us once again. And the old saying comes to mind. 'Why does Capitalism always survive? Because Socialism will always swoop in to save it.' Unless you are among the wealthiest 1% in the US, you cannot afford to vote for another corporate tool like John McCain. McCain and Bush are beyond satire...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There are several things that the republicans have done that have caused the “throw the bums out” mentality. This is the reason why the 2006 sweep of the house and senate took place. First of all the Republicans were trusted to handle this war with Afghanistan, and it eventually turned into Iraq. With the Republican's “lemmings to the sea” mentality, and never questioning Bush, as to the validity of his case to go into Iraq. They could have put up a fight to stop Bush from making this grave mistake, but they didn't. They just went along with the war profit gravy train into Iraq led by a White House marinated in oil. Dwight Eisenhower would have never done such a thing in the first place. Next, the facts of the intelligence were “fixed around the policy” of the Bush administration, according to the British “Downing Street Memo”. Bush didn't rely on facts of the intelligence. He made stuff up. There was no “Yellow Cake Uranium”. There were no mobile weapons labs. Colin Powell resigned because he felt betrayed by the Bush administration, who in turn made him testify, with a little vile of Anthrax, that the intelligence to go into Iraq was a “knockout” of proof that Iraq was hiding WMD's. When the fact is that we destroyed most if not all of his stockpile of weapons that Ronald Regan probably sold him at the hands of Donald Rumsfeld in the 80's. Next, the Bush administration has carried on the policy of the Military to deny former servicemen who were Gulf War veterans that “Gulf War Syndrome” exists. Which is probably a medical side effect from being exposed to detonated biological and chemical weapons that Saddam had back in 1991, when we destroyed their stockpile in the first place. I happen to personally know some of these people, who are afflicted with these medical conditions, so I know this isn't just some “liberal crybaby” as some of you would like to believe. This is one in a series of things along with Bush cutting the military medical funding for VA benefits. The Republicans were nowhere to be found shouting from the hills that Bush has cut funding to the military VA hospitals. It took a “liberal” film-maker, to expose the deplorable conditions at Walter Reed Medical Facility. A year before CNN finally broke the story. Bush's “love” for the military, and veterans is remarkable! And the Republicans did nothing to stop Bush. They just kept in line with other Republicans. The Democratic sweep of Congress, has been stalled by Bush's veto power. So Congress has been left “neutered” in their ability to stop Bush. They have been left ineffective to get anything done as a hand of Bush's veto. Next, the Republicans have been trying to get rid of Social Security ever since FDR drafted the “New Deal”, because it resembles too much of a “socialist” handout. They have been trying to dismantle it ever since. Capitalism has failed us once again. And the old saying comes to mind. 'Why does Capitalism always survive? Because Socialism will always swoop in to save it.' Unless you are among the wealthiest 1% in the US, you cannot afford to vote for another corporate tool like John McCain. McCain and Bush are beyond satire...

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[greenpartyaz]

Sorry about the paragraph, thoughts come fast and formatting get's lost in translation.