A question from a conservative to the conservatives

[editec]

Doug asked some extremely thoughtful questions in another thread.

His questions are so penetrating that I think they deserve their own thread. I would dearly love to see those of you who strenuously object to what you believe "liberalism" stands for, answer these questions for the benefit of we who are apparently too dumb to understand the brilliance of the conservative mind.

Thoughtful conservatives will want to ask themselves two things1) How did this disaster happen? And, in particular, did any actions of ours contributed to our great defeat?(2) What should we do now? How should we fight, now that we are a minority in government? How should we oppose?In my opinion, the key to understanding what happened to us, and how to reverse it, is in understanding how the majority of Americans, who are neither liberal nor conservative, perceive the world, and how they perceive the two opposing political tendencies of liberalism and conservatism.I think we -- more precisely, Republicans in power -- have done a lot to drive these people towards the Left. We need to analyze why this has happened.

Do you think that Doug is right?

Is the average American drifting toward the "left?"

If you think they are, what issues of the day do you think are causing this?

Do you think that the "right" has superior solutions to that issues, and if so, what are they and why is the average American unable to see why the "right's" solution is a better one?

Do you think that the Americans drifting to left are doing so just because they're not smart enough to see why your solutions are superior, or do you believe that they are communists at heart?

Do you believe that the Bush administration's proformance in the last two terms has helped the conservative cause or hurt it?

If you believe that the Bush Administration's has hurt the conservative movement, what would you have done differently if you had been POTUS?

 

[Ravi]

If I can make a comment...When I read this on your thread, I thought he was talking about the Iraq war...How did this disaster happen? And, in particular, did any actions of ours contributed to our great defeat?(2) What should we do now? How should we fight.

But he's actually talking about the horror of having a Democratic president.

IMO, there's something deeply wrong with the Republican priority list.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If I can make a comment...When I read this on your thread, I thought he was talking about the Iraq war...How did this disaster happen? And, in particular, did any actions of ours contributed to our great defeat?(2) What should we do now? How should we fight.

But he's actually talking about the horror of having a Democratic president.

IMO, there's something deeply wrong with the Republican priority list.

Really? And yet the Liberals and democrats have been acting like crazed mad men ever since Bush got elected. I suggest you clean up YOUR party.

As to the question of the thread. I believe GunnyL answered part of it for you. Our decadence and our liberties breed a drift to the left. But that doesn't answer it all. The majority of Americans are not right or left wing. The majority of people that vote for liberal policies do so because liberals bribe them to do so. They breed a society that thinks government should do every thing for them. All their problems are taken care of by Big Brother.

I believe that Conservatives are the stronger and the better solution indeed. Conservatives of today do not need nor want handouts or expect the Government to hold their hand throughout their life and coddle them. Conservatives want to rein in the Nanny State and make people self sufficient , able to stand on their own with only drastic times requiring Government help. Conservatives believe in personal freedom not Government control " for their own good".

Unlike Liberals, conservatives of today do not try to use the Government to shut up their opposition ( remember the "fairness doctrine"?) they care about our borders and where our society is headed.

The 2006 defeat was a wake up call. the Democrats did not win, the Republicans LOST. They had lost their way. In fact a large number of Democrats that got elected in 2006 had to run ON Conservative issues. 30 or 40 I believe.

Bush and McCain are NOT conservatives. The National leadership has failed us for years now. But given the choice of a centerist ot slightly left "republican" or a blazing Liberal Democrat, we have had no choice but to vote for these poor choices.

Unlike a liberal that will vote for any dog or pony with a D behind their name, the Conservatives can and will vote out the bums that do not live up to expectations of the Conservative desires. Thus 2006.

 

[nomdeplume]

They should kick the neocon scum out of the republican party. Nothing but liberals in thousand dollar suits with itchy trigger fingers.

 

[William Joyce]

Is the average American drifting toward the "left?"

I think the powers-that-be are PUSHING to the left, and the average American is going along to some extent.

Do you think that the "right" has superior solutions to that issues, and if so, what are they and why is the average American unable to see why the "right's" solution is a better one?

The right doesn't claim to have government solutions to problems, and people see this as "they're not doing anything." The left sees a government solution to every problem. That side wins, especially in a situation like the Depression.

Do you believe that the Bush administration's proformance in the last two terms has helped the conservative cause or hurt it?

Hurt.

If you believe that the Bush Administration's has hurt the conservative movement, what would you have done differently if you had been POTUS?

Kick the Jews out of the Pentagon or any position of influence over war. Cease unqualified support of Israel. Deport illegal aliens.

 

[Annie]

It would appear the hope of Americans leaning left may be overblown:

Americans Oppose Income Redistribution to Fix Economy

June 27, 2008
Americans Oppose Income Redistribution to Fix Economy
Half say the government is doing too much, 43% too little to solve country's problems

by Dennis Jacobe, Chief Economist

PRINCETON, NJ -- When given a choice about how government should address the numerous economic difficulties facing today's consumer, Americans overwhelmingly -- by 84% to 13% -- prefer that the government focus on improving overall economic conditions and the jobs situation in the United States as opposed to taking steps to distribute wealth more evenly among Americans.

Lack of Support for Wealth Redistribution Spans Political Party, Income Groups

Americans' lack of support for redistributing wealth to fix the economy spans political parties: Republicans (by 90% to 9%) prefer that the government focus on improving the economy, as do independents (by 85% to 13%) and Democrats (by 77% to 19%). This sentiment also extends across income groups: upper-income Americans prefer that the government focus on improving the economy and jobs by 88% to 10%, concurring with middle-income (83% to 16%) and lower-income (78% to 17%) Americans.

Half of Americans Think Government Is Doing Too Much, Not Too Little

A separate question finds Americans more likely to believe government is doing too many things that should be left to individuals and businesses (50%) as opposed to saying government should do more to solve the country's problems (43%). This broad question is not directed specifically at the economy, but reinforces the general idea that many Americans are leery of too much direct government intervention in fixing the country's problems.

This philosophical issue appears to divide Americans by both political party and income groups. Republicans think the government is currently doing too much, by 72% to 24%; independents are split, with 47% saying the government is doing too much and 44% saying it is not doing enough; and Democrats say the government needs to do more by 58% to 36%.

Upper- income (57% to 38%) and middle-income (54% to 40%) Americans tend to agree that the government is doing too much, while those with lower incomes tend to say the government should do more (by 55% to 36%).

 

[Reality]

It would appear the hope of Americans leaning left may be overblown:

Americans Oppose Income Redistribution to Fix Economy

As was said earlier in this post, most Americans don't identify with a political ideology. With questions asked like this, of course these are the answers given.

If you asked people if they supported public works projects as a means of job creation the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

If you asked people if they favored price control on gasoline the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

You can phrase specific questions that would generate much different answers. Asking ideological questions will get respondents to essentially reject the questions.

 

[editec]

Really? And yet the Liberals and democrats have been acting like crazed mad men ever since Bush got elected. I suggest you clean up YOUR party.

I'm not sure the above is addressed to me since I don't have a party.

As to the question of the thread. I believe GunnyL answered part of it for you. Our decadence and our liberties breed a drift to the left. But that doesn't answer it all. The majority of Americans are not right or left wing. The majority of people that vote for liberal policies do so because liberals bribe them to do so. They breed a society that thinks government should do every thing for them. All their problems are taken care of by Big Brother.

So basically you think that the majority of Americans are commies?

I believe that Conservatives are the stronger and the better solution indeed. Conservatives of today do not need nor want handouts or expect the Government to hold their hand throughout their life and coddle them.

This from someone whose paychecks come from the ultimate nanny state...the military?

Conservatives want to rein in the Nanny State and make people self sufficient , able to stand on their own with only drastic times requiring Government help. Conservatives believe in personal freedom not Government control " for their own good".

This from someone whose career path included a lifestyle which is the quintessance of non-personnal freedom ...the military?

Unlike Liberals, conservatives of today do not try to use the Government to shut up their opposition ( remember the "fairness doctrine"?) they care about our borders and where our society is headed.

Yeah, well...I'm not so sure I understand your point except that you don't like liberals, but so noted.

The 2006 defeat was a wake up call. the Democrats did not win, the Republicans LOST.

Funny how those two things tend to go together, though.

One side loses, ergo the other wins.

Seems to me that in either case Americans keep losing though.

They had lost their way. In fact a large number of Democrats that got elected in 2006 had to run ON Conservative issues. 30 or 40 I believe.

Agreed. Clinton was possible the most effective conservative POTUS (in some ways, I mean) in our lifetimes.

Bush and McCain are NOT conservatives.

You and I are totally on the same page there.

The National leadership has failed us for years now. But given the choice of a centerist ot slightly left "republican" or a blazing Liberal Democrat, we have had no choice but to vote for these poor choices.

You'll hear the identical lament from the Dems, of course.

Unlike a liberal that will vote for any dog or pony with a D behind their name,

Tell that to the Nadarites, sport. I suspect they and the democratic party might have a slight difference of opinion regarding their loyalty to the D brand.

the Conservatives can and will vote out the bums that do not live up to expectations of the Conservative desires. Thus 2006.

Did you not vote for Bush the second time around then? Or did it take you more than four years to finally come to the conclusion that:

Bush and McCain are NOT conservatives.

 

[Doug]

In the recent past, about 20% of Americans have identified themselves as liberals -- and thus presumably in favor of income redistribution -- and 30% as conservatives, and thus presumably against it. The rest are neither, and political power will come to that side which can win a sufficient number of them in an election.

Most people in fact take a "common sense" view of economic issues, and this probably includes a lot of people who think of themselves as liberals. (We must distinguish between genuine liberals, and the Far Left. The former can be used by the latter, but are not the same thing.) Thus their -- absolutely correct -- rejection of the idea of the raw transfer of wealth from one section of the population to another. (Interestingly, conservatives in the 18th and 19th centuries feared that mass democracy would mean exactly income re-distribution, which is why the Constitution has so many barriers to direct democracy and why universal suffrage was so long delayed in Europe.)

However ... this does not mean that the majority of people are in favor of a simple laissez-faire economy. If conservatives continue to identify themselves with the economic status quo, during times of economic hardship, they will lose the support of the white working class, whose support has been critical for conservative electoral success in the past four decades.

The fact is, that all modern states incorporate some element of the welfare-state approach. Conservatives need to think about how to differentiate between welfare-state measures that destroy independence and increase dependency, on the one hand, and those that might actually encourage economic independence, on the other.

Fortunately, we have some new, young conservative writers appearing on the scene, who may bring fresh thinking to these problems. David Brookes' column discusses some of them.

 

[Reality]

I'm not sure the above is addressed to me since I don't have a party.




So basically you think that the majority of Americans are commies?



This from someone whose paychecks come from the ultimate nanny state...the military?



This from someone whose career path included a lifestyle which is the quintessance of non-personnal freedom ...the military?



Yeah, well...I'm not so sure I understand your point except that you don't like liberals, but so noted.



Funny how those two things tend to go together, though.

One side loses, ergo the other wins.

Seems to me that in either case Americans keep losing though.



Agreed. Clinton was possible the most effective conservative POTUS (in some ways, I mean) in our lifetimes.



You and I are totally on the same page there.




You'll hear the identical lament from the Dems, of course.



Tell that to the Nadarites, sport. I suspect they and the democratic party might have a slight difference of opinion regarding their loyalty to the D brand.




Did you not vote for Bush the second time around then? Or did it take you more than four years to finally come to the conclusion that:

Hahahahahahahahaha priceless.

I believe he's also stated that he's compromising his values and voting for who his party tells him to, again

 

[editec]

I think the powers-that-be are PUSHING to the left, and the average American is going along to some extent.

Yeah, plausible. Americans really have to go along or be run over by whatever system is in place.. to be sure.

The right doesn't claim to have government solutions to problems, and people see this as "they're not doing anything." The left sees a government solution to every problem. That side wins, especially in a situation like the Depression.

If the government isn't there to solve national problems, why have it at all?

Hurt.

Yeah, I'd have to say if I were a conservative Republican I'd be less than thrilled by the last two terms of the Bushite folks, too.

Kick the Jews out of the Pentagon or any position of influence over war. Cease unqualified support of Israel.

You really think the JEWS are responsible for everyhing?!?

Some of the people in Washington a Jews without a doubt, and their influence rgarding Isreal is unquestionably real, but this general complain I just don't get.

Bush is WASP, dude. As was his dad and most of the people running the nation.

Deport illegal aliens.

Yet the Ds and R leadership both seem not to want to do that.

Do you ever wonder why two seemingly different polticial philosophies can arrive at the same conclusion regarding what most Americans think is the real and growing problem of illegal aliens?

Of course, you probably already know my theory...there aren't TWO different philosophies when it comes to money issues.

The basic differences in the parties are entirely based on social issues. Social issues of little importance to the movers and shakers in the world of finance who fund and control BOTH parties.


They are the paint put on these two nags to convince us that they are exssantially different when they're essantially identical on any issue that matters.

 

[Annie]

As was said earlier in this post, most Americans don't identify with a political ideology. With questions asked like this, of course these are the answers given.

If you asked people if they supported public works projects as a means of job creation the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

If you asked people if they favored price control on gasoline the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

You can phrase specific questions that would generate much different answers. Asking ideological questions will get respondents to essentially reject the questions.

this wasn't by ideology, but rather take on issues. But spin away.

 

[midcan5]

Allow a liberal a brief reply. Liberalism formed this country in spite of the many contradictions of the time. Enlightenment ideas created a hope that man could achieve a just, fair society separate from church and king. (big time period here) For a while the fluctuations of market and the expansion west keep things in order. But as the industrial revolution moved into the corporate stage, the separation of rich and poor and the lack of market controls caused the GD and a reinvigorating of a liberalism that wanted to do better for all its citizens. I think FDR and later LBJ made great strides in that area. By the way communism grew out of the failure of capitalism to create a fair society in the 18th century. But many fought against the new deal and great society, progress is always tough as embedded interests don't want to see change and corporate power needs freedom to exploit. (I know a bit cynical) Reagan and others came together through a 20 year effort to stigmatize liberal and liberal ideas, their goal was to reestablish the hierarchies that existed in the past. That effort is now 40 years old and was formed from a coalition of religious conservatives, economic social darwinists, anti tax proponents, anti-government proponents and I have add racists as LBJ lost the south. They were successful and have ruled, if one can call it that, for 30 years, and therein lies the problem, how do you rule when your primary goal is to diminish the very institutions that make society work. You see that failure under Bush on a grand scale. So yes, the demonization of liberal worked, but the failure of conservatism is real.

 

[Reality]

this wasn't by ideology, but rather take on issues. But spin away.

Maybe you should read a little slower and type a little less. "do you believe in the redistribution of wealth" is a broad and leading question that has to do with ideology. Ask how many Americans want social security abolished. Social Security is also a redistribution of wealth. You would get starkly different numbers.

But the poll said what you wanted it to say and any contrary input, in classic Fox News style, is clearly spin.

 

[nomdeplume]

As was said earlier in this post, most Americans don't identify with a political ideology. With questions asked like this, of course these are the answers given.

If you asked people if they supported public works projects as a means of job creation the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

If you asked people if they favored price control on gasoline the numbers would be very different. That is a redistribution of wealth.

You can phrase specific questions that would generate much different answers. Asking ideological questions will get respondents to essentially reject the questions.

Ridiculous. According to your perverted interpretation of reality, buying a gumball is a redistribution of wealth. That is not how most people with a functioning brain cell see "income redistribution" in American vernacular.

 

[Reality]

Ridiculous. According to your perverted interpretation of reality, buying a gumball is a redistribution of wealth. That is not how most people with a functioning brain cell see "income redistribution" in American vernacular.

What is ridiculous is your failure to understand a simple concept. If you buy a gumball that is a capitalistic transaction. If the government takes tax money and buys gumballs they are redistributing money from the taxpayer to the gumball distributor. If the government takes tax money and gives it to a contractor to build something, that is a redistribution of wealth. It is taking money outside of a supply/demand capitalistic forum and providing it via the government.

I guess it takes just one brain cell to understand an analogy beyond using gumballs.

 

[nomdeplume]

What is ridiculous is your failure to understand a simple concept. If you buy a gumball that is a capitalistic transaction. If the government takes tax money and buys gumballs they are redistributing money from the taxpayer to the gumball distributor. If the government takes tax money and gives it to a contractor to build something, that is a redistribution of wealth. It is taking money outside of a supply/demand capitalistic forum and providing it via the government.

I guess it takes just one brain cell to understand an analogy beyond using gumballs.

No, what is ridiculous is that your dumb ass still doesn't get it. According your stupid analogies, anything that invovles a transaction of money could be labeled "income redistribution". And guess what: IT IS. But that's not how the word is used and understood, not that you'd know anything about understanding.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Hahahahahahahahaha priceless.

I believe he's also stated that he's compromising his values and voting for who his party tells him to, again

Wrong, I am voting for the MUCH lesser evil of McCain over Obama. Those are the two real choices and they give me no choice BUT to vote for McCain.

As for Bush , again in 2004 my choice was between Bush and that idiot Kerry. No brainer there.

 

[Reality]

No, what is ridiculous is that your dumb ass still doesn't get it. According your stupid analogies, anything that invovles a transaction of money could be labeled "income redistribution". And guess what: IT IS. But that's not how the word is used and understood, not that you'd know anything about understanding.

Reading comprehension not your strong suit? No where did I say any transaction is a redistribution of wealth. If you go to the store and want to pretend anyone might actually touch you and you buy condoms, that is an individual exchanging compensation for a good or service. If the government, which uses the threat of prosecution to coerce citizens into paying taxes, uses that money to do virtually anything, including defense spending, welfare, social security, or whatever else, that is taking money through coercion and redistributing it. No one forces you as an individual to buy gumballs, condoms or anything else.

 

[eots]

Wrong, I am voting for the MUCH lesser evil of McCain over Obama. Those are the two real choices and they give me no choice BUT to vote for McCain.

As for Bush , again in 2004 my choice was between Bush and that idiot Kerry. No brainer there.

but those of us with a brain would realize that they are both skull and bones.. cfr... selections and you had no real choice at all..except same shit ..diffrent pile