Zone1 A Major Difference of the Catholic Faith

[Libby von H]

Bold mine. Not what I said, nor anything close to what I believe.

what you said, exactly what it appears you believe/
Just saying 'Naaah' is not very adult you must admit

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hebrew 9 is speaking of Covenants.
Leviticus says fine flour is also permitted as a sin offering.

You aren't Jewish, and that covenant was replaced by a better one:

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises​

 

[Meriweather]

what you said

Enjoy the conversation with whomever, then, because it's not with me.

 

[Meriweather]

You aren't Jewish, and that covenant was replaced by a better one:

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises​

The Bible is more than one verse or even one book. Quote one and too much is left out. God has been working with mankind and all his various periods and phases from the beginning. Redemption and salvation is a Way (or a journey) for each one as we labor to overcome sin and live as God designed. Yes, the physical body is fallen, but our spirits are above that, and we have God's graces and promises to escort and conduct us to a life beyond our sins. Paul notes that the harder it is for us to overcome a sin, the more grace we are given to achieve the victory.

The perspective that Jesus was punished instead of us, nothing more needs to be done, falls short. What Christ suffered and died for was to open the Way to victory. There is no longer a reason to be a slave to sin, when there is an open invitation to be a slave to love, goodness, and righteousness. God died for us, he suffered for us, that is how much he loves us. He himself is a slave to love, goodness, and righteousness and extends everything he has to us.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Christ did not fall short. His work is complete.
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

He never said, "Ok, I have finished paying for my portion of your salvation, now, you go pay the rest".
Did He pay for 50% of your sins? 75%? 1%? How will you ever rest in Jesus if you don't know how much of your sin he left for you to work out?

 

[Meriweather]

Christ did not fall short. His work is complete.
John 17:4 I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

He never said, "Ok, I have finished paying for my portion of your salvation, now, you go pay the rest".
Did He pay for 50% of your sins? 75%? 1%? How will you ever rest in Jesus if you don't know how much of your sin he left unpaid?

Does it matter how one lives life, or is it the only thing that matters is what one believes? Christ did the entire work of opening the way of redemption and salvation. He showed us the way. Is it a matter of saying, "Yes, that's what he did, but no need to walk the walk, only thing needed is to talk the talk." Isn't a gift meant to be used, not just talked about? The fact we can overcome our own sins doesn't even factor in? Overcoming personal sin seems worth a worthwhile endeavor.

Jesus taught repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Does this mean giving up sin 50% of the time? 75%? 1%? Or does this mean striving to repent/turn from the sin 100% of the time?

 

[Donald H]

The Bible is more than one verse or even one book. Quote one and too much is left out. God has been working with mankind and all his various periods and phases from the beginning.

In the millions of years that go to making up mankind, at what point would you speculate for mankind being aware of your god?

We could also ask, when did your god consider our early ancestors to be 'mankind'? Would the ancestor of both Chimpanzees/Bonobos and earliest man, be considered by your god to be 'mankind'?

Wikipedia: Humans evolved in Africa.[4] Genetic measurements indicate that the ape lineage which would lead to Homo sapiens diverged from the lineage that would lead to chimpanzees and bonobos, the closest living relatives of modern humans, between 7 million and 5 million years ago.[5] The term hominin denotes human ancestors that lived after the split with chimpanzees and bonobos,

 

[Meriweather]

We could also ask, when did your god consider our early ancestors to be 'mankind'?

As far as the date/year, haven't a clue. It seems it would be the point where God breathed the breath of life into man.

 

[Donald H]

As far as the date/year, haven't a clue. It seems it would be the point where God breathed the breath of life into man.

You're more often than not claiming that you don't know.
Should we assume that your god acknowledged early mankind 3.8 million years ago?

I'll offer that as the Christian's belief, in the absence of no Christian wanting to speculate or actually know. It's not an unreasonable starting point, considering that mankind's ancestor was a Chimp/Bonobo or at least a hybrid man/chimp..

You can believe that if you choose to believe it, without any danger of contradicting the Catholic church.

 

[hadit]

Hebrew 9 is speaking of Covenants.
Leviticus says fine flour is also permitted as a sin offering.

No. It's clear. You disappoint me.

Hebrews 9:

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[Meriweather]

You're more often than not claiming that you don't know.
Should we assume that your god acknowledged early mankind 3.8 million years ago?

I'll offer that as the Christian's belief, in the absence of no Christian wanting to speculate or actually know. It's not an unreasonable starting point, considering that mankind's ancestor was a Chimp/Bonobo or at least a hybrid man/chimp..

You can believe that if you choose to believe it, without any danger of contradicting the Catholic church.

Interest for some lies more in physical existence. For others, spiritual existence captivates many people of faith.

 

[Meriweather]

No. It's clear. You disappoint me.

Hebrews 9:

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

One verse. What does Leviticus say? What else does scripture say about the sacrifice God desires? Since Jesus offered his blood as the blood of the new covenant, it is not surprising that the author focuses on other offerings of blood, and the blood of older covenants. Other verses point out that that blood wasn't the only way for the remission of sins, but it was the only way that old covenants--and the new--were sealed.

 

[hadit]

Does it matter how one lives life, or is it the only thing that matters is what one believes? Christ did the entire work of opening the way of redemption and salvation. He showed us the way. Is it a matter of saying, "Yes, that's what he did, but no need to walk the walk, only thing needed is to talk the talk." Isn't a gift meant to be used, not just talked about? The fact we can overcome our own sins doesn't even factor in? Overcoming personal sin seems worth a worthwhile endeavor.

Jesus taught repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Does this mean giving up sin 50% of the time? 75%? 1%? Or does this mean striving to repent/turn from the sin 100% of the time?

I think you are moving too far in the other direction. Only God forgives sin, we all agree. God requires repentance of sin before He will forgive, we all agree. The part where it appears we disagree is on the role our actions take in that process.

We say that God's forgiveness is immediate and complete, that He removes our sin "as far as the east is from the west", and that repentance involves then avoiding the sin from which we have repented. His forgiveness is His gift to us that cannot be earned. In fact, in Jesus' own prayer, we are to ask for forgiveness, not work to earn forgiveness. IOW, we go to God for forgiveness BEFORE we attempt to do anything about the sin.

You APPEAR to be saying that we have to in some way EARN forgiveness by working for it and can only enter God's presence after we have worked to clean ourselves up to be holy enough to stand before Him. That will never happen. We can only be made righteous by Jesus' shed blood.

Now, as to works. We say that works are a necessary RESULT of salvation, that they reflect the radical change that God has made in a person's life, that without works you have nothing that shows you are a follower of Christ. You appear to be saying the works are necessary for someone to gain salvation, that we are then able to hold them up to God and demand that He accept us. IOW, that Mother Theresa, for example, would be able to walk into God's presence and God would have no choice but to accept her because she did so many good deeds. That's not how it works. I can guarantee that when she went into His presence, she was struck by how sinful she was and could only plead the blood of Christ.

All of this to say that no, we do NOT believe that mouthing some words, then going back to your sinful life means you are saved. What we are saying is that you are saved when you repent, then you are expected to live the rest of your life in submission to God, to walking in His truth, to obeying the most important commandments:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul.
Love your neighbors as yourself.

Get those right and you get the entire law right.

 

[hadit]

One verse. What does Leviticus say? What else does scripture say about the sacrifice God desires? Since Jesus offered his blood as the blood of the new covenant, it is not surprising that the author focuses on other offerings of blood, and the blood of older covenants. Other verses point out that that blood wasn't the only way for the remission of sins, but it was the only way that old covenants--and the new--were sealed.

Leviticus says:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

But you knew that, so why are you continuing to argue that blood is not necessary for the forgiveness of sin?

IOW, if blood is not required, why did God insist that Jesus had to go to the cross?

 

[Meriweather]

You APPEAR to be saying that we have to in some way EARN forgiveness

Does the above picture appear to be a young woman or an old crone? Read what is said, not what additions/jumping to conclusions can be brought into the discussion. The idea of "earning" salvation is not present anymore than a mirage is present. "Earning" is an idea Protestants brought to the table as an accusation to throw at Catholics. Meanwhile we are simply going forward living our redemption/salvation.

Like the picture above--and mirages--optical illusions can be powerful, but let's not make them the focal point of a discussion. Earning is not on the table, never has been.

 

[hadit]

View attachment 928478

Does the above picture appear to be a young woman or an old crone? Read what is said, not what additions/jumping to conclusions can be brought into the discussion. The idea of "earning" salvation is not present anymore than a mirage is present. "Earning" is an idea Protestants brought to the table as an accusation to throw at Catholics. Meanwhile we are simply going forward living our redemption/salvation.

Like the picture above--and mirages--optical illusions can be powerful, but let's not make them the focal point of a discussion. Earning is not on the table, never has been.

Which is why I said that it appears that way. No, we cannot earn our salvation, but I have seen Catholics insist that works are necessary for salvation. They are not, they are the necessary and natural result of salvation, not the cause.

God set it up that way so no one can boast about the amount of good works they have done. No one can say, "I am holier than you are", so it's incredibly important to put good works in the correct place.

 

[Meriweather]

You appear to be saying the works are necessary for someone to gain salvation

Mirage.

that we are then able to hold them up to God and demand that He accept us.

That's plain silly. Mankind is in less position to make demands of God than he is to make demands of a mountain.

IOW, that Mother Theresa, for example, would be able to walk into God's presence and God would have no choice but to accept her because she did so many good deeds.

Yet, she never would.

I can guarantee that when she went into His presence, she was struck by how sinful she was and could only plead the blood of Christ.

And I guarantee when anyone--Mother Theresa or the greatest sinner (if it is not Mother Theresa)--is in the Presence, they are struck by how much they are loved. No pleading, no blood. Love.

 

[Meriweather]

But you knew that, so why are you continuing to argue that blood is not necessary for the forgiveness of sin?

Leviticus. Or, ask any Jew (who has read all of Leviticus) acceptable sin offerings.

IOW, if blood is not required, why did God insist that Jesus had to go to the cross?

New Covenant.

 

[hadit]

Mirage.

That's plain silly. Mankind is in less position to make demands of God than he is to make demands of a mountain.

Yet, she never would.

And I guarantee when anyone--Mother Theresa or the greatest sinner (if it is not Mother Theresa)--is in the Presence, they are struck by how much they are loved. No pleading, no blood. Love.

Matthew 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Meriweather]

Which is why I said that it appears that way. No, we cannot earn our salvation, but I have seen Catholics insist that works are necessary for salvation. They are not, they are the necessary and natural result of salvation, not the cause.

Is obedience to Christ necessary? What did he command? Did we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, etc.? Did we discern the will of God and follow it? What talents were we given? How many will we return to the one who loaned them to us?

Catholics believe so wholeheartedly in Christ, his words, the way he lived, that the present life is devoted to him and his Way of obedience to the Father even unto death, that it never occurs to us that we should wait until we die and are in heaven before we follow Christ with our whole heart, whole mind, whole soul. The kingdom is here and now and continues in the afterlife. We don't have to wait for the afterlife.

God set it up that way so no one can boast about the amount of good works they have done. No one can say, "I am holier than you are", so it's incredibly important to put good works in the correct place.

"Boasting" is another mirage. Catholics remember clearly that we are not to let our left hand know what our right hand is doing. On the other hand, city lights on a hillside cannot be hidden--which may be why so many toss "earning" and "boasting" at those Kingdom/city lights. All are most welcome in this kingdom; no need to stand outside with suspicious minds.