A Different Topic - We need UNIONS!

[OldUSAFSniper]

Now, before those of you who have me conveniently pigeon-holed into a certain category vapor lock, I have something that I want to discuss with those INTELLIGENT individuals on the board from the left and right (knee-jerk political hacks can leave now) about the status of the country and where we are heading. Specifically, companies and their relationship with American workers.

Here are the problems: American workers are being paid less and less (ties in with the last issue of illegal aliens). American jobs (those in manufacturing and other sectors of the economy) are moving overseas. It used to be (as in the 50's and 60's) that when you got a job, you stayed at that job and you could retire from it. Now, it is so rare to see a worker who has stayed at the same job for 35 years. Another issue is the fact that with the influx of illegal aliens, American workers and their jobs are 'throw away.' Why pay a middle class worker $30.00 an hour when you can get someone here illegally to do it for $15.00 an hour?

My solution, after looking at what occured at that time when the American manufacturing sector was strong and what WORKED is that we need American workers to form a type of union. NOT the SEIU or the AFL-CIO political hack unions. But unions that actually help companies make and then maintain market share. Course, that would also require that CEO's actually take interest in how their companies fared, other than worrying about their 'golden parachutes' and their own personal bottom line. That is the concern of the board of directors though.

What would these new unions look like? Not sure. Thus the reason for the topic. But let me make this clear. The unions that we have now have been hijacked. Either by thugs or political hacks of the same sort we have seen on this forum. I was forced once to join a union by three guys who followed me into a bathroom. It wasn't a request. I really dislike the unions as they stand now, but have come somewhat to the conclusion that the function that they served at one time was an honorable one and did help get and maintain American jobs BECAUSE they worked FOR the companies as well.

Now, what do you think?

 

[flacaltenn]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

 

[Freemason9]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

 

[Sallow]

Unions by their very nature are political. They try to affect policy.

If they don't they are largely useless, unless they are violent.

 

[Defiant1]

Now, before those of you who have me conveniently pigeon-holed into a certain category vapor lock, I have something that I want to discuss with those INTELLIGENT individuals on the board from the left and right (knee-jerk political hacks can leave now) about the status of the country and where we are heading. Specifically, companies and their relationship with American workers.

Here are the problems: American workers are being paid less and less (ties in with the last issue of illegal aliens). American jobs (those in manufacturing and other sectors of the economy) are moving overseas. It used to be (as in the 50's and 60's) that when you got a job, you stayed at that job and you could retire from it. Now, it is so rare to see a worker who has stayed at the same job for 35 years. Another issue is the fact that with the influx of illegal aliens, American workers and their jobs are 'throw away.' Why pay a middle class worker $30.00 an hour when you can get someone here illegally to do it for $15.00 an hour?

My solution, after looking at what occured at that time when the American manufacturing sector was strong and what WORKED is that we need American workers to form a type of union. NOT the SEIU or the AFL-CIO political hack unions. But unions that actually help companies make and then maintain market share. Course, that would also require that CEO's actually take interest in how their companies fared, other than worrying about their 'golden parachutes' and their own personal bottom line. That is the concern of the board of directors though.

What would these new unions look like? Not sure. Thus the reason for the topic. But let me make this clear. The unions that we have now have been hijacked. Either by thugs or political hacks of the same sort we have seen on this forum. I was forced once to join a union by three guys who followed me into a bathroom. It wasn't a request. I really dislike the unions as they stand now, but have come somewhat to the conclusion that the function that they served at one time was an honorable one and did help get and maintain American jobs BECAUSE they worked FOR the companies as well.

Now, what do you think?

Can we have unicorns, fairies, and pots of gold, too?

 

[flacaltenn]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

 

[Freemason9]

Unions by their very nature are political. They try to affect policy.

If they don't they are largely useless, unless they are violent.

And, because unions are political, politicians that represent certain political interests actively work to enact laws prohibiting unions. This is exactly why unions engage in "illegal" behavior--certain governments force them into a corner.

 

[Freemason9]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

Whatever.

 

[flacaltenn]

Unions by their very nature are political. They try to affect policy.

If they don't they are largely useless, unless they are violent.

Don't mind them lobbying as long as it's not about acquiring power or coersive abilities..
While they are lobbying -- they ought to go for policies that put folks INTO industries that CAN SUPPORT living wages. Instead of trying to inflate the job salaries of their CURRENT memberships..

It's counterproductive to promote THE JOB --- and not the person in it...

THere is a primary reason for current union failures..

 

[Sallow]

Unions by their very nature are political. They try to affect policy.

If they don't they are largely useless, unless they are violent.

Don't mind them lobbying as long as it's not about acquiring power or coersive abilities..
While they are lobbying -- they ought to go for policies that put folks INTO industries that CAN SUPPORT living wages. Instead of trying to inflate the job salaries of their CURRENT memberships..

It's counterproductive to promote THE JOB --- and not the person in it...

THere is a primary reason for current union failures..

The "primary" reason for Unions failing is money.

They cannot keep up with the spending that their corporate adversaries engage in.

Hence the stagnant wages and jobs going over seas.

 

[HenryBHough]

No question! Every plumbing job needs at least one union else you'd never be able to take anything apart.

 

[Edgetho]

After WWII, most of the World's Industrial capacity had been bombed to rubble.

Literally. Germany, Belgium, Holland, France (mostly by us) Japan, Italy....

Except us. We were just fine. In fact, we had made so much money selling War Supplies to England that it almost covered up the incompetence of the 3rd Worst president in History -- FDR.

At one time during 1941, the US had 14.6% Unemployment. Hard to believe? Not at all. FDR really was that bad and that incompetent.

I digress..... After the War, Britain had some Industrial Capacity but they immediately kicked Winston Churchill to the curb and elected a socialist.

Which totally fucked Britain for the next 40 years.

Germany was a big pile of debris. So was Japan. China had no industrial capacity.....

The only people that could make anything was -- The good ol' US of A.

And we did. We made ANYTHING. And a lot of was just simply JUNK.

Take it however you want, I don't care. I was in the heart of Industry in Cleveland Ohio at the time. Trust me, it was a lot of JUNK.

Manufacturers saw the Germans and Japanese re-tooling and said, "Boys, thems some smart people over there. We need to modernize or we're going to get left behind."

The Unions SLAMMED the door on them. Told them that if they even THOUGHT about modernizing, they'd strike and shut 'em down.

And they would.

I was there. I physically, personally witnessed it.... First hand. I even talked to an Executive VP of Republic Steel about it.

Unions killed American Industry.

Unions and the EPA. Like there's a difference. dimocrap scum. Same thing.

I could see the EPA being hard-asses. I was there when the Cuyahoga River caught fire. Kinda embarrassing.

But they were so incredibly heavy-handed. Guys, I swear to God, they were worse than Nazis.

I was also there when a Federal Judge ruled that Companies inside the City Limits of Cleveland had to have a work force representative of the population of Cleveland.

Which at the time was about 70%.

No time was allowed. I was there.

I watched them hire people that, honest to God, should have been in Prison. Lice-infested, disease-carrying, thieving, drugged-up, dirty street scum.

I was there people.

Don't quote some ass-wipe's bullshit history to me. I WATCHED it unfold. day by day, week by week, month by month until I finally left in 1977.

I knew it was going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It did.

So you know what? Anybody wanna talk to me about Unions?

As far as I'm concerned, they should take them all out and horse whip them. Then smear them with tar and drag them out of town behind a smoking, oil-burning 1985 LTD.

I live in a "Right To Work'' State now and love it. We are so much more modern, so much more prosperous, so much happier, so much better off than ANY Union State.... It isn't even funny.

Union States are dying.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I could say that I believe in Unions, but I just don't believe in stupid Unions.

But once you have Unions, dimocraps infest them and they bring the stupid.

hoo boy, do they ever bring the stupid.

 

[zeke]

Now, before those of you who have me conveniently pigeon-holed into a certain category vapor lock, I have something that I want to discuss with those INTELLIGENT individuals on the board from the left and right (knee-jerk political hacks can leave now) about the status of the country and where we are heading. Specifically, companies and their relationship with American workers.

Here are the problems: American workers are being paid less and less (ties in with the last issue of illegal aliens). American jobs (those in manufacturing and other sectors of the economy) are moving overseas. It used to be (as in the 50's and 60's) that when you got a job, you stayed at that job and you could retire from it. Now, it is so rare to see a worker who has stayed at the same job for 35 years. Another issue is the fact that with the influx of illegal aliens, American workers and their jobs are 'throw away.' Why pay a middle class worker $30.00 an hour when you can get someone here illegally to do it for $15.00 an hour?

My solution, after looking at what occured at that time when the American manufacturing sector was strong and what WORKED is that we need American workers to form a type of union. NOT the SEIU or the AFL-CIO political hack unions. But unions that actually help companies make and then maintain market share. Course, that would also require that CEO's actually take interest in how their companies fared, other than worrying about their 'golden parachutes' and their own personal bottom line. That is the concern of the board of directors though.

What would these new unions look like? Not sure. Thus the reason for the topic. But let me make this clear. The unions that we have now have been hijacked. Either by thugs or political hacks of the same sort we have seen on this forum. I was forced once to join a union by three guys who followed me into a bathroom. It wasn't a request. I really dislike the unions as they stand now, but have come somewhat to the conclusion that the function that they served at one time was an honorable one and did help get and maintain American jobs BECAUSE they worked FOR the companies as well.

Now, what do you think?

I think that since it was declared that corporations are people to, that we need unions more than we have in a long time.

The only thing that had a chance of matching the funding that corporations have and will provide to politicians is union members pooling their money to give to their politicians.

I think some of the union busting was for just that purpose. Break down the unions political power ie money. Companies being able to pay less and give less in benefits, hell they been working for a long time to get rid of unions.

Of course unions are needed. More than ever.

Doesn't mean we are going to see an increase in union membership though.

 

[Mr Natural]

After WWII, most of the World's Industrial capacity had been bombed to rubble.

Literally. Germany, Belgium, Holland, France (mostly by us) Japan, Italy....

Except us. We were just fine. In fact, we had made so much money selling War Supplies to England that it almost covered up the incompetence of the 3rd Worst president in History -- FDR.

At one time during 1941, the US had 14.6% Unemployment. Hard to believe? Not at all. FDR really was that bad and that incompetent.

I digress..... After the War, Britain had some Industrial Capacity but they immediately kicked Winston Churchill to the curb and elected a socialist.

Which totally fucked Britain for the next 40 years.

Germany was a big pile of debris. So was Japan. China had no industrial capacity.....

The only people that could make anything was -- The good ol' US of A.

And we did. We made ANYTHING. And a lot of was just simply JUNK.

Take it however you want, I don't care. I was in the heart of Industry in Cleveland Ohio at the time. Trust me, it was a lot of JUNK.

Manufacturers saw the Germans and Japanese re-tooling and said, "Boys, thems some smart people over there. We need to modernize or we're going to get left behind."

The Unions SLAMMED the door on them. Told them that if they even THOUGHT about modernizing, they'd strike and shut 'em down.

And they would.

I was there. I physically, personally witnessed it.... First hand. I even talked to an Executive VP of Republic Steel about it.

Unions killed American Industry.

Unions and the EPA. Like there's a difference. dimocrap scum. Same thing.

I could see the EPA being hard-asses. I was there when the Cuyahoga River caught fire. Kinda embarrassing.

But they were so incredibly heavy-handed. Guys, I swear to God, they were worse than Nazis.

I was also there when a Federal Judge ruled that Companies inside the City Limits of Cleveland had to have a work force representative of the population of Cleveland.

Which at the time was about 70%.

No time was allowed. I was there.

I watched them hire people that, honest to God, should have been in Prison. Lice-infested, disease-carrying, thieving, drugged-up, dirty street scum.

I was there people.

Don't quote some ass-wipe's bullshit history to me. I WATCHED it unfold. day by day, week by week, month by month until I finally left in 1977.

I knew it was going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It did.

So you know what? Anybody wanna talk to me about Unions?

As far as I'm concerned, they should take them all out and horse whip them. Then smear them with tar and drag them out of town behind a smoking, oil-burning 1985 LTD.

I live in a "Right To Work'' State now and love it. We are so much more modern, so much more prosperous, so much happier, so much better off than ANY Union State.... It isn't even funny.

Union States are dying.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I could say that I believe in Unions, but I just don't believe in stupid Unions.

But once you have Unions, dimocraps infest them and they bring the stupid.

hoo boy, do they ever bring the stupid.

You should put this drivel to music and get some redneck asshole country singer to record it.

It'll go over big down there in Gooberville.

 

[flacaltenn]

Unions by their very nature are political. They try to affect policy.

If they don't they are largely useless, unless they are violent.

Don't mind them lobbying as long as it's not about acquiring power or coersive abilities..
While they are lobbying -- they ought to go for policies that put folks INTO industries that CAN SUPPORT living wages. Instead of trying to inflate the job salaries of their CURRENT memberships..

It's counterproductive to promote THE JOB --- and not the person in it...

THere is a primary reason for current union failures..

The "primary" reason for Unions failing is money.

They cannot keep up with the spending that their corporate adversaries engage in.

Hence the stagnant wages and jobs going over seas.

There ya go again.. "their corporate adversaries"... Don't see a problem with that?
Why isn't the focus on their REAL ADVERSARY --- automation and modernization.. ((See EdgeTho's story above)). Even the Chinese don't want cheap labor. They are smart enough to know they can't build dorms and cafeterias for MILLIONS of workers who produce sub par efficiencies.. THEY are investing HEAVILY in automation and modernization. Within a decade --- Chinese labor is gonna be in a similiar boat..

Unions need to realize we don't need folks to pull the same lever everyday.. We need folks who write scripts for robotics. We don't need as many store checkout clerks, we need point of sale technicians. We dont need screwdriver turners, we need industrial and mechanical designers driving CAD automation. The schools need to realize we need FLEXIBLE workers. Folks who know HOW TO LEARN.

How much learning and flexibility do the unions currently promote? Shouldn't THEY? Too many excuses for failure and a basic denial that they need to leave the 19th century behind.

 

[flacaltenn]

We shouldn't expect to be making the soccer balls for the world. Or probably tee shirts. UNLESS we can change the definition of how these things get made by robotics, materials science, etc.. Shouldn't be making the "junk" that EdgeTho saw in the 70s.

Our sights better rise ---- or our society will sink...

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Now, what do you think?

I think unions wouldn't change a damn thing. They are powerless.
What needs to change is the way Americans buy goods and services. As long as a cheap price is overwhelmingly the deciding factor in spending choices - then suppliers have no choice but to continue to use the cheapest labor force they can find.

 

[boedicca]

The OP misses the point. The reason wages are down and declining is due to lackluster economic growth and oppressive/excessive government which favors Big Bank and Big Corp Cronies.

 

[flacaltenn]

The OP misses the point. The reason wages are down and declining is due to lackluster economic growth and oppressive/excessive government which favors Big Bank and Big Corp Cronies.

The big get bigger because of regulation and govt policy.. They need to be taken down by more aggressive faster lighter ventures.. OR we end up in a corporatocracy.. We've basically DOOMED new company creation like we had in the 70s and 80s.. THAT translates into MORE of a labor problem than Chinese labor..

Even notice that the left/right AGREE (mostly) on govt/corp collusion? Why doesn't this get fixed? This will give a clue about yet another problem with the unions.

 

[wjmacguffin]

Here's what I think unions need to do in order to become relevant again.

First, start policing their own members. Don't defend a bad teacher simply because she's part of the union. Do the opposite: Get rid of her. She's making teachers, unions, and schools look bad.

Second, start working with management to train & improve workers. Make your workers so good, well-trained, and necessary that management has no excuse to complain.

Third, ally with other unions in the country. The more people that will join your strike, the more power you have to fight management.

These three proposals turn unions into a positive but powerful force for employees.