A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue

[The Rabbi]

If the purpose of these monitoring devices is that of facilitating more efficient traffic control I would voluntarily accept installation only if a law were passed making it a criminal offense (with a minimum one year imprisonment penalty) to employ or reveal the data it generates for any other purpose.

I am confident that proviso would prevent any bureaucrat from misusing or allowing misuse of the data.

Because we know the government can be trusted not to abuse access to information, right?

Geez, some people will never get it.

 

[g5000]

why not just tax electric cars up front when purchased......?

target them like smokers....

It would make more sense to tax tires.

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Breaking News: The Right still don't like the ACLU but applauds them for protecting them

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the purpose of these monitoring devices is that of facilitating more efficient traffic control I would voluntarily accept installation only if a law were passed making it a criminal offense (with a minimum one year imprisonment penalty) to employ or reveal the data it generates for any other purpose.

I am confident that proviso would prevent any bureaucrat from misusing or allowing misuse of the data.

Make it life, and make it apply to everyone, including the IRS, and I might consider it.

 

[Sallow]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

120% against this.

Absolutely no need for it at all.

 

[martybegan]

It would make more sense to tax tires.

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

There has to be a way to make an odometer tamper resistant enough so that the cost fo futzing with it is more than the cost of the yearly tax.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If the purpose of these monitoring devices is that of facilitating more efficient traffic control I would voluntarily accept installation only if a law were passed making it a criminal offense (with a minimum one year imprisonment penalty) to employ or reveal the data it generates for any other purpose.

I am confident that proviso would prevent any bureaucrat from misusing or allowing misuse of the data.

hahahaha.....'confident'......hahahaha......

 

[Sallow]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

This system is expensive and will not only cost drivers for the extra miles they drive, but the cost of the system to be installed on cars would be costly also. I have to admit, many of our politicians are just brain dead. Instead of looking for a very simple solution, they need to come up with this ridiculously complex plan which most people will be against anyway.

Now let's all think very hard here. If they were to get rid of the gasoline tax altogether but still wanted to tax something that corresponds to a person's use of our roads, what would be the most logical thing to tax?

Well, I'm not a rocket scientist, but to keep things simple, I would tax tires.

Taxing purchases made over longer periods is tough due to the incentive to get around the tax, i.e. bootleg tires.

Buying gas is a thing you do every few days to every few weeks. People don't want to go through the hassle of cheating out the taxman on frequent purchases, too much of a hassle, to many opprotunities to get caught. But at the typical frequency people change tires there is more of an incentive to hit the black market.

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

Sounds sensible.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

It would make more sense to tax tires.

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

the whole point of the black box started with the idea to equalize the gas tax revenues lost by the use of the electric cars...how can you 'equalize' if you are charging the same tax for tires on all cars....? taxing electric car batteries is a better idea...

 

[Sunshine]

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

No, it’s not a matter of ‘if you have nothing to hide,’ is a matter of whether or not the information can be used against a driver pursuant to a criminal prosecution.

Why do you keep saying stupid things?

The 4th Amendment applies all the time, not just in criminal cases, just like every other amendment.

In US v. Jones (2011), for example, the Court held that criminal evidence obtained from a GPS device placed on a suspect’s car cannot be used as grounds for conviction absent a warrant.

Consequently, the state cannot compel a motorist to have a ‘black box’ device placed on his car absent either a warrant or consent of the motorist.

And should the state place such a device on a motorist’s car without his knowledge, absent a warrant, any evidence gathered would be inadmissible.

The same applies to NSA surveillance programs, where information gathered from phone or email records cannot be used in the context of a criminal prosecution, as no warrant was issued to authorize the gathering of information for that purpose.

Let me get this straight, you say something really stupid, ie that the only question is whether the information can be used in court, and then argue that the government cannot even put the device on the car unless they have a warrant.

Does your brain even work, or did you break it snuffing cleaning fluids on the job?

I vote for the cleaning fluids. The case was not as pat as he wants you to believe:

On January 23, 2012, the Supreme Court held that "the Government's installation of a GPS device on a target's vehicle, and its use of that device to monitor the vehicle's movements, constitutes a 'search'" under the Fourth Amendment.[18][19][20] Some news sources have interpreted the Court as holding that the police actions were unconstitutional when "not obtaining an extended search warrant before attaching a tracking device to a drug suspect's car",[21] though Tom Goldstein of SCOTUSblog has noted that while the majority held that the installation of a GPS device followed by its tracking was a Fourth Amendment search, it declined to say whether that search was unreasonable and required a warrant.[22] The justices split 5-4 on the reasoning and the breadth of the judgment.

Justice Antonin Scalia authored the majority opinion. He cited a line of cases dating back as far as 1886 when arguing that trespass or physical intrusion of private property has been considered as the basis of determining whether a "search" had occurred under the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.[23] Scalia conceded that following Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), where electronic eavesdropping in a public telephone booth was ruled to be a search, the determination deviated from the property based approach and was instead based on violation of a person's "reasonable expectation of privacy".[24] However, he also cited numerous post-Katz cases to argue that reliance on trespass to determine whether the Fourth Amendment was violated had not been abandoned.[25] In response to Alito's concurrence's criticisms, Scalia emphasized that the Fourth Amendment must provide at a minimum the level of protection as when it was adopted. Furthermore, consideration of trespass does not exclude consideration of expectation of privacy. The latter is to be considered when determining if a search occurred in a situation where there was no governmental trespass.[26] Since government's installation of a GPS device unto defendant's car was trespass, consideration of the reasonable expectation of privacy in all of his movements was not necessary.[27]

While the court held that the installation of a GPS tracking device was a Fourth Amendment search, the majority of the court declined to say whether that search was unreasonable and required a warrant.[28][29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Jones_(2012)

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

That might be a viable alternative to the federal gas tax, but it won't work for a state gas tax. Just because at the time of my registration renewal I may have driven 13,000 miles, it's highly unlikely I drove all of those 13,000 miles in my own state. In fact, I frequently drive outside of Nevada, to California, Arizona, and Utah, for work using my own car because the mileage pay is a nice little bonus. Why should I pay the State of Nevada tax on driving 13,000 miles over the period of a year when 4,000 of those miles may not have even been driven on their roads?

 

[g5000]

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

the whole point of the black box started with the idea to equalize the gas tax revenues lost by the use of the electric cars...how can you 'equalize' if you are charging the same tax for tires on all cars....? taxing electric car batteries is a better idea...

Internal combustion vehicles would still have a gas tax. The electric complement would be a tax on batteries.

Since the number of gas and electric cars is in flux, it would be difficult to equalize revenues without an additional tire tax.

 

[g5000]

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

That might be a viable alternative to the federal gas tax, but it won't work for a state gas tax. Just because at the time of my registration renewal I may have driven 13,000 miles, it's highly unlikely I drove all of those 13,000 miles in my own state. In fact, I frequently drive outside of Nevada, to California, Arizona, and Utah, for work using my own car because the mileage pay is a nice little bonus. Why should I pay the State of Nevada tax on driving 13,000 miles over the period of a year when 4,000 of those miles may not have even been driven on their roads?

Why should I pay a sales tax when I visit another state if I don't live there?

Because there is no perfect system.

 

[martybegan]

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

That might be a viable alternative to the federal gas tax, but it won't work for a state gas tax. Just because at the time of my registration renewal I may have driven 13,000 miles, it's highly unlikely I drove all of those 13,000 miles in my own state. In fact, I frequently drive outside of Nevada, to California, Arizona, and Utah, for work using my own car because the mileage pay is a nice little bonus. Why should I pay the State of Nevada tax on driving 13,000 miles over the period of a year when 4,000 of those miles may not have even been driven on their roads?

It would be a tax on the person owning a vehicle registered in the state in question. Where the miles came from wouldnt matter. This eliminates the need for GPS and tracking where a person is driving.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

the whole point of the black box started with the idea to equalize the gas tax revenues lost by the use of the electric cars...how can you 'equalize' if you are charging the same tax for tires on all cars....? taxing electric car batteries is a better idea...

Internal combustion vehicles would still have a gas tax. The electric complement would be a tax on batteries.

Since the number of gas and electric cars is in flux, it would be difficult to equalize revenues without an additional tire tax.

wha....? why would you need an additional tire tax to 'equalize revenues'......?

 

[National Socialist]

Yeah. Not going to happen to my vehicle. Put it on my vehicle without me saying yes.I will just sell it and walk or take public transportation. I am making plans to go off grid anyways.

 

[G.T.]

sounds legit





sike! (early 90's reference!)

 

[Jarlaxle]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

This system is expensive and will not only cost drivers for the extra miles they drive, but the cost of the system to be installed on cars would be costly also. I have to admit, many of our politicians are just brain dead. Instead of looking for a very simple solution, they need to come up with this ridiculously complex plan which most people will be against anyway.

Now let's all think very hard here. If they were to get rid of the gasoline tax altogether but still wanted to tax something that corresponds to a person's use of our roads, what would be the most logical thing to tax?

Well, I'm not a rocket scientist, but to keep things simple, I would tax tires.

Taxing purchases made over longer periods is tough due to the incentive to get around the tax, i.e. bootleg tires.

Buying gas is a thing you do every few days to every few weeks. People don't want to go through the hassle of cheating out the taxman on frequent purchases, too much of a hassle, to many opprotunities to get caught. But at the typical frequency people change tires there is more of an incentive to hit the black market.

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

Disconnecting the odometer on most cars takes less than three minutes. Changing it is only slightly harder. (Many times, a simple ECM swap will do it.)

 

[Jarlaxle]

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

In addition to a tire tax, let there be a battery tax for electric cars to offset the decrease in gasoline tax.

The whole point of the consumption taxes on tires and batteries is to eliminate the need for a black box surveillance device.

There has to be a way to make an odometer tamper resistant enough so that the cost fo futzing with it is more than the cost of the yearly tax.

Nope. Cannot be done, short of the odometer costing more than the car!

 

[AquaAthena]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

Several plans are on the table. And most would do just that.

SNIPS:

Oregon is moving ahead with a controversial plan to tax motorists based on the number of miles they drive as opposed to the amount of fuel they consume, raising myriad concerns about cost and privacy.

Oregon is purportedly considering several tracking methods for the pilot project’s 5,000 volunteers ahead of the 2015 start date – essentially allowing them to install mileage meters connected their vehicles’ odometers or GPS systems that could better track non-taxable miles on private and out-of-state roads.

Critics also say state governments calculating the tax per mile and mailing bills is another cost, and that people who use the most gas-efficient vehicles could pay just as much as those owning gas-guzzlers.

The Oregon plan -- approved and signed into law this year by the state’s Democrat-run government -- would replace the 30-cents-a-gallon state tax with one for 1.5 cents a mile, for those participating.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...h-milage-tax-raised-concerns-on-privacy-cost/