A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

 

[hjmick]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

 

[USNavyVet]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

That's what they are trying to do. As gas powered cars get better mileage and electric cars start to catch on, the gas tax brings in less and less revenue. The government can't allow that.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

When do they ever give up a revenue stream?

 

[ba1614]

Nope, not interested in the least

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

No, it’s not a matter of ‘if you have nothing to hide,’ is a matter of whether or not the information can be used against a driver pursuant to a criminal prosecution.

In US v. Jones (2011), for example, the Court held that criminal evidence obtained from a GPS device placed on a suspect’s car cannot be used as grounds for conviction absent a warrant.

Consequently, the state cannot compel a motorist to have a ‘black box’ device placed on his car absent either a warrant or consent of the motorist.

And should the state place such a device on a motorist’s car without his knowledge, absent a warrant, any evidence gathered would be inadmissible.

The same applies to NSA surveillance programs, where information gathered from phone or email records cannot be used in the context of a criminal prosecution, as no warrant was issued to authorize the gathering of information for that purpose.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

No, I think they would use both.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

No, it’s not a matter of ‘if you have nothing to hide,’ is a matter of whether or not the information can be used against a driver pursuant to a criminal prosecution.

Why do you keep saying stupid things?

The 4th Amendment applies all the time, not just in criminal cases, just like every other amendment.

In US v. Jones (2011), for example, the Court held that criminal evidence obtained from a GPS device placed on a suspect’s car cannot be used as grounds for conviction absent a warrant.

Consequently, the state cannot compel a motorist to have a ‘black box’ device placed on his car absent either a warrant or consent of the motorist.

And should the state place such a device on a motorist’s car without his knowledge, absent a warrant, any evidence gathered would be inadmissible.

The same applies to NSA surveillance programs, where information gathered from phone or email records cannot be used in the context of a criminal prosecution, as no warrant was issued to authorize the gathering of information for that purpose.

Let me get this straight, you say something really stupid, ie that the only question is whether the information can be used in court, and then argue that the government cannot even put the device on the car unless they have a warrant.

Does your brain even work, or did you break it snuffing cleaning fluids on the job?

 

[The Rabbi]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

No, it’s not a matter of ‘if you have nothing to hide,’ is a matter of whether or not the information can be used against a driver pursuant to a criminal prosecution.

In US v. Jones (2011), for example, the Court held that criminal evidence obtained from a GPS device placed on a suspect’s car cannot be used as grounds for conviction absent a warrant.

Consequently, the state cannot compel a motorist to have a ‘black box’ device placed on his car absent either a warrant or consent of the motorist.

And should the state place such a device on a motorist’s car without his knowledge, absent a warrant, any evidence gathered would be inadmissible.

The same applies to NSA surveillance programs, where information gathered from phone or email records cannot be used in the context of a criminal prosecution, as no warrant was issued to authorize the gathering of information for that purpose.

If the state required all cars to have it, like airbags, then there would be no 4thA issue at all. And I would bet they will.
The fact that evidence cannot be used in a criminal proceeding is hardly comforting. You would have to have an evidentiary hearing first. Does anyone want to pay out thousands of dollars to lawyers to make his case?
We know that gov't expands to fill the capaibilities alloted to it. There is no reason to think they will not use this device to tax, arrest, harass and enforce its citizens to death.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

In Nevada, where about 50 volunteers' cars were equipped with the devices not long ago, drivers were uneasy about the government being able to monitor their every move.

"Concerns about Big Brother and those sorts of things were a major problem," said Alauddin Khan, who directs strategic and performance management at the Nevada Department of Transportation. "It was not something people wanted."

As the trial got underway, the ACLU of Nevada warned on its website: "It would be fairly easy to turn these devices into full-fledged tracking devices.... There is no need to build an enormous, unwieldy technological infrastructure that will inevitably be expanded to keep records of individuals' everyday comings and goings."

Nevada is among several states now scrambling to find affordable technology that would allow the state to keep track of how many miles a car is being driven, but not exactly where and at what time. If you can do that, Khan said, the public gets more comfortable.

A black box in your car? Some see a source of tax revenue - latimes.com

I don't get more comfortable. Who can trust the government to not use the data to spy on you, particularly after the NSA revelations?

I'm sure the "if you have nothing to hide" candy ass crowd will roll over for this one too.

No, it’s not a matter of ‘if you have nothing to hide,’ is a matter of whether or not the information can be used against a driver pursuant to a criminal prosecution.

In US v. Jones (2011), for example, the Court held that criminal evidence obtained from a GPS device placed on a suspect’s car cannot be used as grounds for conviction absent a warrant.

Consequently, the state cannot compel a motorist to have a ‘black box’ device placed on his car absent either a warrant or consent of the motorist.

And should the state place such a device on a motorist’s car without his knowledge, absent a warrant, any evidence gathered would be inadmissible.

The same applies to NSA surveillance programs, where information gathered from phone or email records cannot be used in the context of a criminal prosecution, as no warrant was issued to authorize the gathering of information for that purpose.

Wrong. The federal state just compelled every us citizen to have healthcare coverage or face penalties.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

If the state required all cars to have it, like airbags, then there would be no 4thA issue at all. And I would bet they will.
The fact that evidence cannot be used in a criminal proceeding is hardly comforting. You would have to have an evidentiary hearing first. Does anyone want to pay out thousands of dollars to lawyers to make his case?
We know that gov't expands to fill the capaibilities alloted to it. There is no reason to think they will not use this device to tax, arrest, harass and enforce its citizens to death.

It's really sad this has to be explained to some people.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

That's what they are trying to do. As gas powered cars get better mileage and electric cars start to catch on, the gas tax brings in less and less revenue. The government can't allow that.

why not just tax electric cars up front when purchased......?

target them like smokers....

 

[g5000]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

That's what they are trying to do. As gas powered cars get better mileage and electric cars start to catch on, the gas tax brings in less and less revenue. The government can't allow that.

why not just tax electric cars up front when purchased......?

target them like smokers....

It would make more sense to tax tires.

 

[auditor0007]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

This system is expensive and will not only cost drivers for the extra miles they drive, but the cost of the system to be installed on cars would be costly also. I have to admit, many of our politicians are just brain dead. Instead of looking for a very simple solution, they need to come up with this ridiculously complex plan which most people will be against anyway.

Now let's all think very hard here. If they were to get rid of the gasoline tax altogether but still wanted to tax something that corresponds to a person's use of our roads, what would be the most logical thing to tax?

Well, I'm not a rocket scientist, but to keep things simple, I would tax tires.

 

[auditor0007]

That's what they are trying to do. As gas powered cars get better mileage and electric cars start to catch on, the gas tax brings in less and less revenue. The government can't allow that.

why not just tax electric cars up front when purchased......?

target them like smokers....

It would make more sense to tax tires.

Crap, you beat me to it.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

That's what they are trying to do. As gas powered cars get better mileage and electric cars start to catch on, the gas tax brings in less and less revenue. The government can't allow that.

why not just tax electric cars up front when purchased......?

target them like smokers....

It would make more sense to tax tires.

but then the electric cars would still be paying comparatively less for their road usage......not to mention tires can be exchanged too easily and that would disrupt the surveillance aspect....

 

[007]

Just one more attempt by the government to track your every move. This isn't about highway maintenance, this about CONTROL.

 

[martybegan]

Do you think they would end the Federal Gas Tax in favor of this system?

This system is expensive and will not only cost drivers for the extra miles they drive, but the cost of the system to be installed on cars would be costly also. I have to admit, many of our politicians are just brain dead. Instead of looking for a very simple solution, they need to come up with this ridiculously complex plan which most people will be against anyway.

Now let's all think very hard here. If they were to get rid of the gasoline tax altogether but still wanted to tax something that corresponds to a person's use of our roads, what would be the most logical thing to tax?

Well, I'm not a rocket scientist, but to keep things simple, I would tax tires.

Taxing purchases made over longer periods is tough due to the incentive to get around the tax, i.e. bootleg tires.

Buying gas is a thing you do every few days to every few weeks. People don't want to go through the hassle of cheating out the taxman on frequent purchases, too much of a hassle, to many opprotunities to get caught. But at the typical frequency people change tires there is more of an incentive to hit the black market.

Simplest solution would be to harden the odometer, and have people pay on milage at the time they re-register the vehicle. hardnening the odometer would restritct tampering to only a few tech wonks, and if the penalties are bad enough it may make it not worth it.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

i say put the trackers in the electric cars ONLY....call it the 'Green Box'....

bet that would affect sales....

 

[MikeK]

If the purpose of these monitoring devices is that of facilitating more efficient traffic control I would voluntarily accept installation only if a law were passed making it a criminal offense (with a minimum one year imprisonment penalty) to employ or reveal the data it generates for any other purpose.

I am confident that proviso would prevent any bureaucrat from misusing or allowing misuse of the data.