CDZ 9/11 - did America deserve it?

[irosie91]

At the low end, 300,000 dead civilians in Iraq due to US sanctions, mostly women and children. High end estimate over a million. That alone justifies something much worse than 9/11.

That is true.. Our sick and misguided policies did spawn resentment. But does not justify such a terrorist act.
Hurt to watch Mad Albright call those "containment" deaths --- "acceptable"..

Arab world cannot exist without strongman dictatorships of some types. They have no concept of democracy or popular politics. And our arrogance has dismantled much of that stability in the region.. Leaving the sucking void of chaos that you see today...

why do you hate arabs? --------your comment reminds me of the career of PETER THE GREAT of Russia------or even better VLAD THE IMPALER Has some
arab told you that "we, arabs NEED dictators to control us"???? The arab spring rebellion against politicians in the arab world began in the arab world.
A few years ago I ran into two elderly men-----who mysteriously both decided to sit
next to me during jury duty voir dire recess. They commenced a lively conversation with each other in Arabic-----one to my right, the other to my
left and me in the middle. ------abruptly they switched languages and
continued in Hebrew -----more familiar to me than Arabic. ------then started
talking to me---in English. I realized that my last name was the draw----the reason
they sat next to me. ------During the VOIR DIRE----we all had to say our name and
place of birth--------the guy on the left was born in Syria ---the one on the right---Iraq.
me------name clearly jew and place of birth---USA. -----comment "the US is making
a mistake------they can't vote for a president in Iraq"-----other guy---the SYRIAN---
agreed---"THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GOVERN THEMSELVES" "they
can't live with democracy"-------sheesh
-------be happy-----two elderly jews ---one born in Iraq and the other in Syria----
AGREE WITH YOU. They both had reasons not to like arabs-----both
described how they escaped----the Syrian told me that in the 50s as a
teen HE SPRINTED OVER THE HILLS OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
Are you really sure that arabs cannot "self-rule"??

Not a matter of my fondness for Arabs. Just an immutable fact that our leadership has always missed. The Arab world generally has no interest in participatory government. Just in a government that distributes national treasure and keeps the factions from killing each other.

America didn't deserve 9/11 --- What we DESERVED is less morons and academics formulating the same SUCKY policy for the Mid-East.. Matter of fact -- we should probably ship Kerry over there to kiss Assad's ass right now and set him free. With a few assurances that his "regime" will shed the heavy Iranian influence.

THAT'S why we've blown up Syria and created a monstrous refugee problem. Because the academics and pinheads in charge believe some kind of "grassroots" freedom movement is gonna SPRING UP from all that collosal carnage. It LOOKS like Armageddon to the poor folks caught in that mess right now. And THEY understand we've screwed up again with the "democracy and freedom" franchise..

OH-----"our" screw up for which arabs WANT to blame us is that WE tried to IMPOSE freedom on them. I have a very strong sense that you
never spoke to a real life arab or even a real life muslim or a real life
Iranian ------or a real life non-muslim survivor of any of the above. I do agree
with the YOU and the two elderly jews from arab lands that I met in the Court-
house------that US MIDEAST POLICY SUCKS-----in fact US policy in reference
all ALL MUSLIM LANDS------sucks----because the USA has no understanding of
ISLAM and societies that run "islamically". I do not agree with you that "WE BLEW UP SYRIA" anymore than I agreed with----- with Pakistani colleagues---
that everything that went wrong in South East Asia since 1857 is the fault of -----
THE BRITISH EMPIRE (in that the GLORIOUS Mughal empire ended).

For that matter-----why not date the WESTERN screw up to the dissolution of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE?? Erdogan does, Just as Pakistanis I have known ----dated the PAKISTANI CIVIL WAR (between east and west Pakistan---1971)----
to its ROOT CAUSE--------THE BRITS-----and the crumbling of the MUGHAL
EMPIRE ---- -----of course you are right--------as are they------the real root
cause of the problems of the ENTIRE WORLD are the heirs of the british empire------the Zionist controlled CIA!!!!!!! ---now logically accused of being the real
INVENTERS----of ISIS and AL Qaeda. -----------you all make so much
sense. None of this stuff would have happened without-------lets face it-----
from the ALAMO-----to BANGLA DESH-------without the Zionist controlled
CIA --------more affectionately called THE WEST. The WEST also created
the concept of CALIPHATE-----in the mind of muhummad----and his son-in-law
ali-------and his friend ABU BAKR

PS-----I have just read---somewhere-----that PAKISTAN has decided to do away
with its overuse of English and concentrate on URDU--------for the interest of the
many who do not know------URDU is a dialect in India and Pakistan that derives
to a signficiant extent from FARSI (Persian)---with some arabisms thrown in.------
in my mind-----THE PLOT that the WEST----invented-----thickens

 

[flacaltenn]

At the low end, 300,000 dead civilians in Iraq due to US sanctions, mostly women and children. High end estimate over a million. That alone justifies something much worse than 9/11.

That is true.. Our sick and misguided policies did spawn resentment. But does not justify such a terrorist act.
Hurt to watch Mad Albright call those "containment" deaths --- "acceptable"..

Arab world cannot exist without strongman dictatorships of some types. They have no concept of democracy or popular politics. And our arrogance has dismantled much of that stability in the region.. Leaving the sucking void of chaos that you see today...

why do you hate arabs? --------your comment reminds me of the career of PETER THE GREAT of Russia------or even better VLAD THE IMPALER Has some
arab told you that "we, arabs NEED dictators to control us"???? The arab spring rebellion against politicians in the arab world began in the arab world.
A few years ago I ran into two elderly men-----who mysteriously both decided to sit
next to me during jury duty voir dire recess. They commenced a lively conversation with each other in Arabic-----one to my right, the other to my
left and me in the middle. ------abruptly they switched languages and
continued in Hebrew -----more familiar to me than Arabic. ------then started
talking to me---in English. I realized that my last name was the draw----the reason
they sat next to me. ------During the VOIR DIRE----we all had to say our name and
place of birth--------the guy on the left was born in Syria ---the one on the right---Iraq.
me------name clearly jew and place of birth---USA. -----comment "the US is making
a mistake------they can't vote for a president in Iraq"-----other guy---the SYRIAN---
agreed---"THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GOVERN THEMSELVES" "they
can't live with democracy"-------sheesh
-------be happy-----two elderly jews ---one born in Iraq and the other in Syria----
AGREE WITH YOU. They both had reasons not to like arabs-----both
described how they escaped----the Syrian told me that in the 50s as a
teen HE SPRINTED OVER THE HILLS OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
Are you really sure that arabs cannot "self-rule"??

Not a matter of my fondness for Arabs. Just an immutable fact that our leadership has always missed. The Arab world generally has no interest in participatory government. Just in a government that distributes national treasure and keeps the factions from killing each other.

America didn't deserve 9/11 --- What we DESERVED is less morons and academics formulating the same SUCKY policy for the Mid-East.. Matter of fact -- we should probably ship Kerry over there to kiss Assad's ass right now and set him free. With a few assurances that his "regime" will shed the heavy Iranian influence.

THAT'S why we've blown up Syria and created a monstrous refugee problem. Because the academics and pinheads in charge believe some kind of "grassroots" freedom movement is gonna SPRING UP from all that collosal carnage. It LOOKS like Armageddon to the poor folks caught in that mess right now. And THEY understand we've screwed up again with the "democracy and freedom" franchise..

OH-----"our" screw up for which arabs WANT to blame us is that WE tried to IMPOSE freedom on them. I have a very strong sense that you
never spoke to a real life arab or even a real life muslim or a real life
Iranian ------or a real life non-muslim survivor of any of the above. I do agree
with the YOU and the two elderly jews from arab lands that I met in the Court-
house------that US MIDEAST POLICY SUCKS-----in fact US policy in reference
all ALL MUSLIM LANDS------sucks----because the USA has no understanding of
ISLAM and societies that run "islamically". I do not agree with you that "WE BLEW UP SYRIA" anymore than I agreed with----- with Pakistani colleagues---
that everything that went wrong in South East Asia since 1857 is the fault of -----
THE BRITISH EMPIRE (in that the GLORIOUS Mughal empire ended).

For that matter-----why not date the WESTERN screw up to the dissolution of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE?? Erdogan does, Just as Pakistanis I have known ----dated the PAKISTANI CIVIL WAR (between east and west Pakistan---1971)----
to its ROOT CAUSE--------THE BRITS-----and the crumbling of the MUGHAL
EMPIRE ---- -----of course you are right--------as are they------the real root
cause of the problems of the ENTIRE WORLD are the heirs of the british empire------the Zionist controlled CIA!!!!!!! ---now logically accused of being the real
INVENTERS----of ISIS and AL Qaeda. -----------you all make so much
sense. None of this stuff would have happened without-------lets face it-----
from the ALAMO-----to BANGLA DESH-------without the Zionist controlled
CIA --------more affectionately called THE WEST. The WEST also created
the concept of CALIPHATE-----in the mind of muhummad----and his son-in-law
ali-------and his friend ABU BAKR

PS-----I have just read---somewhere-----that PAKISTAN has decided to do away
with its overuse of English and concentrate on URDU--------for the interest of the
many who do not know------URDU is a dialect in India and Pakistan that derives
to a signficiant extent from FARSI (Persian)---with some arabisms thrown in.------
in my mind-----THE PLOT that the WEST----invented-----thickens

All those previous imperial sins do not excuse our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast..

I know it's fiction --- but the last season episode for Tyrant (a great series) has the benevolent brother hero being cheered by the crowd for rescuing Abbuddin from ISIS. They want to draft him as a successor to his bungling brother. Bassam gives a speech about "it's YOUR victory" and freedom and democracy and the crowd goes absolutely still.. I just rolled with laughter.. EVERYONE knows this but our idiots in charge and the former British Empire.

Not that we are after empire. I'd never accept that leftist agi-prop.. But we ARE prostelytizing and are as annoying as door to door salvation sellers. And a LOT more dangerous..

 

[irosie91]

At the low end, 300,000 dead civilians in Iraq due to US sanctions, mostly women and children. High end estimate over a million. That alone justifies something much worse than 9/11.

That is true.. Our sick and misguided policies did spawn resentment. But does not justify such a terrorist act.
Hurt to watch Mad Albright call those "containment" deaths --- "acceptable"..

Arab world cannot exist without strongman dictatorships of some types. They have no concept of democracy or popular politics. And our arrogance has dismantled much of that stability in the region.. Leaving the sucking void of chaos that you see today...

why do you hate arabs? --------your comment reminds me of the career of PETER THE GREAT of Russia------or even better VLAD THE IMPALER Has some
arab told you that "we, arabs NEED dictators to control us"???? The arab spring rebellion against politicians in the arab world began in the arab world.
A few years ago I ran into two elderly men-----who mysteriously both decided to sit
next to me during jury duty voir dire recess. They commenced a lively conversation with each other in Arabic-----one to my right, the other to my
left and me in the middle. ------abruptly they switched languages and
continued in Hebrew -----more familiar to me than Arabic. ------then started
talking to me---in English. I realized that my last name was the draw----the reason
they sat next to me. ------During the VOIR DIRE----we all had to say our name and
place of birth--------the guy on the left was born in Syria ---the one on the right---Iraq.
me------name clearly jew and place of birth---USA. -----comment "the US is making
a mistake------they can't vote for a president in Iraq"-----other guy---the SYRIAN---
agreed---"THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GOVERN THEMSELVES" "they
can't live with democracy"-------sheesh
-------be happy-----two elderly jews ---one born in Iraq and the other in Syria----
AGREE WITH YOU. They both had reasons not to like arabs-----both
described how they escaped----the Syrian told me that in the 50s as a
teen HE SPRINTED OVER THE HILLS OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
Are you really sure that arabs cannot "self-rule"??

Not a matter of my fondness for Arabs. Just an immutable fact that our leadership has always missed. The Arab world generally has no interest in participatory government. Just in a government that distributes national treasure and keeps the factions from killing each other.

America didn't deserve 9/11 --- What we DESERVED is less morons and academics formulating the same SUCKY policy for the Mid-East.. Matter of fact -- we should probably ship Kerry over there to kiss Assad's ass right now and set him free. With a few assurances that his "regime" will shed the heavy Iranian influence.

THAT'S why we've blown up Syria and created a monstrous refugee problem. Because the academics and pinheads in charge believe some kind of "grassroots" freedom movement is gonna SPRING UP from all that collosal carnage. It LOOKS like Armageddon to the poor folks caught in that mess right now. And THEY understand we've screwed up again with the "democracy and freedom" franchise..

OH-----"our" screw up for which arabs WANT to blame us is that WE tried to IMPOSE freedom on them. I have a very strong sense that you
never spoke to a real life arab or even a real life muslim or a real life
Iranian ------or a real life non-muslim survivor of any of the above. I do agree
with the YOU and the two elderly jews from arab lands that I met in the Court-
house------that US MIDEAST POLICY SUCKS-----in fact US policy in reference
all ALL MUSLIM LANDS------sucks----because the USA has no understanding of
ISLAM and societies that run "islamically". I do not agree with you that "WE BLEW UP SYRIA" anymore than I agreed with----- with Pakistani colleagues---
that everything that went wrong in South East Asia since 1857 is the fault of -----
THE BRITISH EMPIRE (in that the GLORIOUS Mughal empire ended).

For that matter-----why not date the WESTERN screw up to the dissolution of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE?? Erdogan does, Just as Pakistanis I have known ----dated the PAKISTANI CIVIL WAR (between east and west Pakistan---1971)----
to its ROOT CAUSE--------THE BRITS-----and the crumbling of the MUGHAL
EMPIRE ---- -----of course you are right--------as are they------the real root
cause of the problems of the ENTIRE WORLD are the heirs of the british empire------the Zionist controlled CIA!!!!!!! ---now logically accused of being the real
INVENTERS----of ISIS and AL Qaeda. -----------you all make so much
sense. None of this stuff would have happened without-------lets face it-----
from the ALAMO-----to BANGLA DESH-------without the Zionist controlled
CIA --------more affectionately called THE WEST. The WEST also created
the concept of CALIPHATE-----in the mind of muhummad----and his son-in-law
ali-------and his friend ABU BAKR

PS-----I have just read---somewhere-----that PAKISTAN has decided to do away
with its overuse of English and concentrate on URDU--------for the interest of the
many who do not know------URDU is a dialect in India and Pakistan that derives
to a signficiant extent from FARSI (Persian)---with some arabisms thrown in.------
in my mind-----THE PLOT that the WEST----invented-----thickens

All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast..

I know it's fiction --- but the last season episode for Tyrant (a great series) has the benevolent brother hero being cheered by the crowd for rescuing Abbuddin from ISIS. They want to draft him as a successor to his bungling brother. Bassam gives a speech about "it's YOUR victory" and freedom and democracy and the crowd goes absolutely still.. I just rolled with laughter.. EVERYONE knows this but our idiots in charge and the former British Empire.

Not that we are after empire. I'd never accept that leftist agi-prop.. But we ARE prostelytizing and are as annoying as door to door salvation sellers. And a LOT more dangerous..

You must be tired Please re-read and explain>>>"All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast.."

yes----Bush's ----"we are the democracy givers..." sermons were silly and even annoying --------but they did NOT CREATE ISIS --------Isis is islam. It islam now and it was islam when ABU BAKR became caliph in the 7th century AD -----
Muhummad created ISIS. The US is guilty for letting it happen (the US should have negotiated with muhummad 1400 years ago)

 

[flacaltenn]

That is true.. Our sick and misguided policies did spawn resentment. But does not justify such a terrorist act.
Hurt to watch Mad Albright call those "containment" deaths --- "acceptable"..

Arab world cannot exist without strongman dictatorships of some types. They have no concept of democracy or popular politics. And our arrogance has dismantled much of that stability in the region.. Leaving the sucking void of chaos that you see today...

why do you hate arabs? --------your comment reminds me of the career of PETER THE GREAT of Russia------or even better VLAD THE IMPALER Has some
arab told you that "we, arabs NEED dictators to control us"???? The arab spring rebellion against politicians in the arab world began in the arab world.
A few years ago I ran into two elderly men-----who mysteriously both decided to sit
next to me during jury duty voir dire recess. They commenced a lively conversation with each other in Arabic-----one to my right, the other to my
left and me in the middle. ------abruptly they switched languages and
continued in Hebrew -----more familiar to me than Arabic. ------then started
talking to me---in English. I realized that my last name was the draw----the reason
they sat next to me. ------During the VOIR DIRE----we all had to say our name and
place of birth--------the guy on the left was born in Syria ---the one on the right---Iraq.
me------name clearly jew and place of birth---USA. -----comment "the US is making
a mistake------they can't vote for a president in Iraq"-----other guy---the SYRIAN---
agreed---"THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GOVERN THEMSELVES" "they
can't live with democracy"-------sheesh
-------be happy-----two elderly jews ---one born in Iraq and the other in Syria----
AGREE WITH YOU. They both had reasons not to like arabs-----both
described how they escaped----the Syrian told me that in the 50s as a
teen HE SPRINTED OVER THE HILLS OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
Are you really sure that arabs cannot "self-rule"??

Not a matter of my fondness for Arabs. Just an immutable fact that our leadership has always missed. The Arab world generally has no interest in participatory government. Just in a government that distributes national treasure and keeps the factions from killing each other.

America didn't deserve 9/11 --- What we DESERVED is less morons and academics formulating the same SUCKY policy for the Mid-East.. Matter of fact -- we should probably ship Kerry over there to kiss Assad's ass right now and set him free. With a few assurances that his "regime" will shed the heavy Iranian influence.

THAT'S why we've blown up Syria and created a monstrous refugee problem. Because the academics and pinheads in charge believe some kind of "grassroots" freedom movement is gonna SPRING UP from all that collosal carnage. It LOOKS like Armageddon to the poor folks caught in that mess right now. And THEY understand we've screwed up again with the "democracy and freedom" franchise..

OH-----"our" screw up for which arabs WANT to blame us is that WE tried to IMPOSE freedom on them. I have a very strong sense that you
never spoke to a real life arab or even a real life muslim or a real life
Iranian ------or a real life non-muslim survivor of any of the above. I do agree
with the YOU and the two elderly jews from arab lands that I met in the Court-
house------that US MIDEAST POLICY SUCKS-----in fact US policy in reference
all ALL MUSLIM LANDS------sucks----because the USA has no understanding of
ISLAM and societies that run "islamically". I do not agree with you that "WE BLEW UP SYRIA" anymore than I agreed with----- with Pakistani colleagues---
that everything that went wrong in South East Asia since 1857 is the fault of -----
THE BRITISH EMPIRE (in that the GLORIOUS Mughal empire ended).

For that matter-----why not date the WESTERN screw up to the dissolution of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE?? Erdogan does, Just as Pakistanis I have known ----dated the PAKISTANI CIVIL WAR (between east and west Pakistan---1971)----
to its ROOT CAUSE--------THE BRITS-----and the crumbling of the MUGHAL
EMPIRE ---- -----of course you are right--------as are they------the real root
cause of the problems of the ENTIRE WORLD are the heirs of the british empire------the Zionist controlled CIA!!!!!!! ---now logically accused of being the real
INVENTERS----of ISIS and AL Qaeda. -----------you all make so much
sense. None of this stuff would have happened without-------lets face it-----
from the ALAMO-----to BANGLA DESH-------without the Zionist controlled
CIA --------more affectionately called THE WEST. The WEST also created
the concept of CALIPHATE-----in the mind of muhummad----and his son-in-law
ali-------and his friend ABU BAKR

PS-----I have just read---somewhere-----that PAKISTAN has decided to do away
with its overuse of English and concentrate on URDU--------for the interest of the
many who do not know------URDU is a dialect in India and Pakistan that derives
to a signficiant extent from FARSI (Persian)---with some arabisms thrown in.------
in my mind-----THE PLOT that the WEST----invented-----thickens

All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast..

I know it's fiction --- but the last season episode for Tyrant (a great series) has the benevolent brother hero being cheered by the crowd for rescuing Abbuddin from ISIS. They want to draft him as a successor to his bungling brother. Bassam gives a speech about "it's YOUR victory" and freedom and democracy and the crowd goes absolutely still.. I just rolled with laughter.. EVERYONE knows this but our idiots in charge and the former British Empire.

Not that we are after empire. I'd never accept that leftist agi-prop.. But we ARE prostelytizing and are as annoying as door to door salvation sellers. And a LOT more dangerous..

You must be tired Please re-read and explain>>>"All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast.."

yes----Bush's ----"we are the democracy givers..." sermons were silly and even annoying --------but they did NOT CREATE ISIS --------Isis is islam. It islam now and it was islam when ABU BAKR became caliph in the 7th century AD -----
Muhummad created ISIS. The US is guilty for letting it happen (the US should have negotiated with muhummad 1400 years ago)

Can't argue with that generally. But ISIS leadership DID find it's way out of US prison in Iraq in our attempt to delegate to the Iraqi poser government. And the NEXT Afghan leadership as soon as we skid out of there will be those dudes our mental midgets traded for an Army deserter.

We ARE terminally stupid every time we involve ourselves in this religious tribal anarchy..

 

[Tehon]

I don't believe any nation's citizenry deserves to be terrorized really, though I do sympathize with the rational of those who believe we did deserve it.

I'm having a hard time believing that anyone still believes that the US government's presence in the ME is benevolent in any way. Promoting democracy and freedom, give me a break, more like promoting chaos for the sake dominance.

 

[Indofred]

This thread was always likely to become a little wild, but it isn't for the theories, or for hate aimed at any group.
I was rather hoping for analysis of the situation leading up to 9/11, and honest debate as to the guilt or innocence of America as far as that country's foreign policy went.

The idea either the US right and/or Israel committed the attacks is unimportant to the thread as I still believe US foreign policy was the cause, regardless of who carried out the attacks.

As for hate, still pointless and unimportant as I'm hoping for debate, not name calling and silly point scoring against anyone.

Are you guys able to argue based on opinions supported by facts?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

9/11 was like the "wars" waged by the US - its always the innocents who are harmed.

That's also ONE of the reasons The Iran Deal is good - its addresses the issue instead of going after innocent people who are just trying to live and raise their families. And of course, it doesn't line the pockets of the 1% - led by slime like Cheney.

Those two reasons are why the right is against it.

 

[irosie91]

why do you hate arabs? --------your comment reminds me of the career of PETER THE GREAT of Russia------or even better VLAD THE IMPALER Has some
arab told you that "we, arabs NEED dictators to control us"???? The arab spring rebellion against politicians in the arab world began in the arab world.
A few years ago I ran into two elderly men-----who mysteriously both decided to sit
next to me during jury duty voir dire recess. They commenced a lively conversation with each other in Arabic-----one to my right, the other to my
left and me in the middle. ------abruptly they switched languages and
continued in Hebrew -----more familiar to me than Arabic. ------then started
talking to me---in English. I realized that my last name was the draw----the reason
they sat next to me. ------During the VOIR DIRE----we all had to say our name and
place of birth--------the guy on the left was born in Syria ---the one on the right---Iraq.
me------name clearly jew and place of birth---USA. -----comment "the US is making
a mistake------they can't vote for a president in Iraq"-----other guy---the SYRIAN---
agreed---"THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO GOVERN THEMSELVES" "they
can't live with democracy"-------sheesh
-------be happy-----two elderly jews ---one born in Iraq and the other in Syria----
AGREE WITH YOU. They both had reasons not to like arabs-----both
described how they escaped----the Syrian told me that in the 50s as a
teen HE SPRINTED OVER THE HILLS OF THE GOLAN HEIGHTS.
Are you really sure that arabs cannot "self-rule"??

Not a matter of my fondness for Arabs. Just an immutable fact that our leadership has always missed. The Arab world generally has no interest in participatory government. Just in a government that distributes national treasure and keeps the factions from killing each other.

America didn't deserve 9/11 --- What we DESERVED is less morons and academics formulating the same SUCKY policy for the Mid-East.. Matter of fact -- we should probably ship Kerry over there to kiss Assad's ass right now and set him free. With a few assurances that his "regime" will shed the heavy Iranian influence.

THAT'S why we've blown up Syria and created a monstrous refugee problem. Because the academics and pinheads in charge believe some kind of "grassroots" freedom movement is gonna SPRING UP from all that collosal carnage. It LOOKS like Armageddon to the poor folks caught in that mess right now. And THEY understand we've screwed up again with the "democracy and freedom" franchise..

OH-----"our" screw up for which arabs WANT to blame us is that WE tried to IMPOSE freedom on them. I have a very strong sense that you
never spoke to a real life arab or even a real life muslim or a real life
Iranian ------or a real life non-muslim survivor of any of the above. I do agree
with the YOU and the two elderly jews from arab lands that I met in the Court-
house------that US MIDEAST POLICY SUCKS-----in fact US policy in reference
all ALL MUSLIM LANDS------sucks----because the USA has no understanding of
ISLAM and societies that run "islamically". I do not agree with you that "WE BLEW UP SYRIA" anymore than I agreed with----- with Pakistani colleagues---
that everything that went wrong in South East Asia since 1857 is the fault of -----
THE BRITISH EMPIRE (in that the GLORIOUS Mughal empire ended).

For that matter-----why not date the WESTERN screw up to the dissolution of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE?? Erdogan does, Just as Pakistanis I have known ----dated the PAKISTANI CIVIL WAR (between east and west Pakistan---1971)----
to its ROOT CAUSE--------THE BRITS-----and the crumbling of the MUGHAL
EMPIRE ---- -----of course you are right--------as are they------the real root
cause of the problems of the ENTIRE WORLD are the heirs of the british empire------the Zionist controlled CIA!!!!!!! ---now logically accused of being the real
INVENTERS----of ISIS and AL Qaeda. -----------you all make so much
sense. None of this stuff would have happened without-------lets face it-----
from the ALAMO-----to BANGLA DESH-------without the Zionist controlled
CIA --------more affectionately called THE WEST. The WEST also created
the concept of CALIPHATE-----in the mind of muhummad----and his son-in-law
ali-------and his friend ABU BAKR

PS-----I have just read---somewhere-----that PAKISTAN has decided to do away
with its overuse of English and concentrate on URDU--------for the interest of the
many who do not know------URDU is a dialect in India and Pakistan that derives
to a signficiant extent from FARSI (Persian)---with some arabisms thrown in.------
in my mind-----THE PLOT that the WEST----invented-----thickens

All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast..

I know it's fiction --- but the last season episode for Tyrant (a great series) has the benevolent brother hero being cheered by the crowd for rescuing Abbuddin from ISIS. They want to draft him as a successor to his bungling brother. Bassam gives a speech about "it's YOUR victory" and freedom and democracy and the crowd goes absolutely still.. I just rolled with laughter.. EVERYONE knows this but our idiots in charge and the former British Empire.

Not that we are after empire. I'd never accept that leftist agi-prop.. But we ARE prostelytizing and are as annoying as door to door salvation sellers. And a LOT more dangerous..

You must be tired Please re-read and explain>>>"All those previous imperial sins do not our shitty judgement and lack of understanding of what "stability" and "governance" means in the MidEast.."

yes----Bush's ----"we are the democracy givers..." sermons were silly and even annoying --------but they did NOT CREATE ISIS --------Isis is islam. It islam now and it was islam when ABU BAKR became caliph in the 7th century AD -----
Muhummad created ISIS. The US is guilty for letting it happen (the US should have negotiated with muhummad 1400 years ago)

Can't argue with that generally. But ISIS leadership DID find it's way out of US prison in Iraq in our attempt to delegate to the Iraqi poser government. And the NEXT Afghan leadership as soon as we skid out of there will be those dudes our mental midgets traded for an Army deserter.

We ARE terminally stupid every time we involve ourselves in this religious tribal anarchy..

ok you are blaming the USA for being STUPID PUSSY PUSHOVERS-----
-----you are right ----but violent attack against pussy pushovers is the MOSTEST
NOT NICE. Did you ever read THE EXECUTION OF PRIVATE SLOVAK???
I cried------poor kid-------it was wrong.

 

[I amso IR]

Hi all. Been away for a month or so. I am thinking the entire mid east mess lies right at the feet of Tommy Jefferson and G. Washington and cast of a hundred or so, give or take a few. Had they simply accepted a small tea tax all would be well in the larger Commonwealth, as it is in Canadia today. But no, lets dress up as native American and have a salt water tea party. That way London and not Boston would have been fragged on 9/11. Silly Amerikanski"s.

 

[irosie91]

so true

 

[my2¢]

A friend loan me a copy of a book a few years ago that explained how 9/11 was fulfilling prophecy due to our government's sinful (liberal) ways. It was interesting but it only left me with thought that if God wanted America punished for such then the result wouldn't have been as they were. Let's review, we had: 2 planes striking our center of capitalism, 1 plane hitting our military center, and the plane supposedly heading for the White House or Capital (symbolizing our government) being taken down due to counter-attack by passengers.