68 years ago.

[editec]

The anti-war movement before WWII was not a communist plot, PC.

While it is true that the American Communists also didn't think America should go to war they were a very small part of that Isolationist movement.

Americans were really responding to the long held belief (started by the founding fathers, mostly) that the USA was better off not getting involved in Europeans wars.

So unless you think George Washington was a commie, you might want to read some real history to understand that sentiment

 

[PoliticalChic]

The anti-war movement before WWII was not a communist plot, PC.

While it is true that the American Communists also didn't think America should go to war they were a very small part of that Isolationist movement.

Americans were really responding to the long held belief (started by the founding fathers, mostly) that the USA was better off not getting involved in Europeans wars.

So unless you think George Washington was a commie, you might want to read some real history to understand that sentiment

You underestimate the influence of the communists, unless you are only referring to those who were "card carrying" members.

Add the labor unionists " ...played a prominent role in the U.S. labor movement from the 1920s through the 1940s, founding most of the country's major industrial unions..."
"Although membership in the CPUSA rose to about 75,000[25] by 1938..."
"By April 1940, the CPUSA Daily Worker's line seemed not so much antiwar as simply pro-German."
Communist Party USA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Add all the 'progressives' such as the "The United States Progressive Party of 1948 was a political party that ran former Vice President Henry A. Wallace of Iowa for president ...The Communist Party USA did not field a presidential candidate, and instead endorsed Wallace for President;...admitted Communists, past and present; the party-liners and fellow travelers who failed to differ noticeably with the Communists as to either policy or principle..."
Wallace received 1, 157, 063 votes.

"The Seventh Congress of the Comintern made the change in line official in 1935, when it declared the need for a popular front of all groups opposed to fascism."

Nor did my post indicate that the communist were the entire isolationist movement.

Let me try to make the point more succinctly: the communists proved on June 22, 1941 that the only principles they hold is the well being and primacy of that early paradise and utopia, the Soviet Union.

Evidently you are incorrect in your statement "American Communists also didn't think America should go to war..." as they reversed their position after June 22, 1941.

 

[Teo Smith]

It's said that German secret service was feeding paranoid Stalin with information concerning that everyone wants to endanger him and so. He was so afraid, that killed anyone at least a bit suspicious, of course the main target of Hitler and company were Russian officiers:
Three of the five pre-war marshals and about two thirds of the corps and division commanders were shot. This often left younger, less experienced officers in their places; for example, in 1941, 75% of Red Army officers had held their posts for less than one year. The average Soviet corps commander was 12 years younger than the average German division commander. These officers tended to be very reluctant to take the initiative and often lacked the training necessary for their jobs.

Why someone didn't kill Stalin is a bit baffling to me. After the war he even killed or watched closely any Russian who was a German prisoner of war thinking they would only survive if they agreed to be spies or whatever. The man was a nutcase.

Because Stalin remain German very powerful weapon, he killed or executed half of his officiers accusing them from treason and so. Good preparation for Nazi for the upcoming attack as Russian dictator weakened their own sources.

 

[Teo Smith]

The Allied powers owe a huge debt to Hitler's drug-induced grandiosity, folks.

I think we owe Hitler's Doctor, Karl Brandt, a medal for pumping the guy up with amphetemines for year after year.

By 1941 he was clinically insane, I suspect.

Moreover, since 43 he had to be on heroin cause as he yelled at his generals that they could not fulfil his nonsense orders, his right hemisphere in his head couldn't take it anymore and in small vessels supplying his important motoric functions something got out of order, falling into the result that he couldn't move his left arm properly. Being partial criple, his doctor had fears that Furer's another effusion could end up in more serious disability even falling unconscious or death.
What else to say? With all those drugs that only fueled his anger and decreaed his already low intelect and comprendium in warfare, he must've been totally out of his box

 

[Teo Smith]

Hitler and his generals also researched Napoleon's failed invasion of Russia. At Hitler's insistence, the German High Command (OKW) began to develop a strategy to avoid repeating these mistakes.

I'm sure they were "very" surprised when Friedrich Paulus forbiden to sustain in those unhuman conditions and gave up to Russians. What do you think Xenophon, would Hitler hesitate a minute to run for a life when 40 subzero?

Hitler was not a coward, he in fact stayed in berlin and shot himself when he could have escaped.

His problem was he had the views of WWI infantryman, not a WWII stratagist and thus he lost his army foolishly time and time again.

Do you think he was not coward Xenophon???
And what about this -
On 20 March 1945, Hitler awards the Iron Cross to Hitler Youth outside his bunker. I personally think that only chicken-hearted guy could unmanly encourage naive Hitler's junge in a blind faith of victory and bullshit like that...

 

[Vaccum John]

It's said that German secret service was feeding paranoid Stalin with information concerning that everyone wants to endanger him and so. He was so afraid, that killed anyone at least a bit suspicious, of course the main target of Hitler and company were Russian officiers:
Three of the five pre-war marshals and about two thirds of the corps and division commanders were shot. This often left younger, less experienced officers in their places; for example, in 1941, 75% of Red Army officers had held their posts for less than one year. The average Soviet corps commander was 12 years younger than the average German division commander. These officers tended to be very reluctant to take the initiative and often lacked the training necessary for their jobs.

Why someone didn't kill Stalin is a bit baffling to me. After the war he even killed or watched closely any Russian who was a German prisoner of war thinking they would only survive if they agreed to be spies or whatever. The man was a nutcase.

Why? Are you serious to ask this question??? Cause if you'd only think about it, you'd immediately win a forced trip to Siberia where you wouldn't survive the first winter.
Clear now?

 

[Vaccum John]

Stalin left his own son to die in Nazi camp, because Germans offered him an exchange for some General. He just replied that he doesn't change General for an ordinary soldier. Hm, maybe he was paranoid that they did corrupt him.

 

[Marek Kris]

Or maybe he wanted to get rid of a baby from an unmarried relationship. He is known for his sensual cruelty.

 

[Vaccum John]

It's still the 21st here, I have a thread all set to go for this, since you jumped the gun, I will have to post it now.

It started all at 4am of central European time, just when I did post and established this thread, in states it was still 21st. The same time shift like the end of the WW2 in Europe. It was signed at 11pm of CET on the 8th of may 45, but in Moscow it was already 1am the 9th, so Putin and CO did celebrate it that day, kappish?

 

[Teo Smith]

Stalin left his own son to die in Nazi camp, because Germans offered him an exchange for some General. He just replied that he doesn't change General for an ordinary soldier. Hm, maybe he was paranoid that they did corrupt him.

I think this was a matter of prestige, he wanted to show Hitler that nothing's goona break or stop him, especially after the 6th army of Germany gave up at Stalingrad. Russian ruler was convinced that gentle dimplomacy and warm attitude would strengthen Hitler's expectations on the easten front.

 

[editec]

The anti-war movement before WWII was not a communist plot, PC.

While it is true that the American Communists also didn't think America should go to war they were a very small part of that Isolationist movement.

Americans were really responding to the long held belief (started by the founding fathers, mostly) that the USA was better off not getting involved in Europeans wars.

So unless you think George Washington was a commie, you might want to read some real history to understand that sentiment

You underestimate the influence of the communists, unless you are only referring to those who were "card carrying" members.

No, actually I don't.

Add the labor unionists " ...played a prominent role in the U.S. labor movement from the 1920s through the 1940s, founding most of the country's major industrial unions..."

Communists were they, according to you?

"Although membership in the CPUSA rose to about 75,000[25] by 1938..."
"By April 1940, the CPUSA Daily Worker's line seemed not so much antiwar as simply pro-German."
Communist Party USA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting but not relevant to your original point. Your point, let me remind you was that the communist were behind the isolations sentiment pre WWII. Sheer blather that.

Add all the 'progressives' such as the "The United States Progressive Party of 1948 was a political party that ran former Vice President Henry A. Wallace of Iowa for president ...The Communist Party USA did not field a presidential candidate, and instead endorsed Wallace for President;...admitted Communists, past and present; the party-liners and fellow travelers who failed to differ noticeably with the Communists as to either policy or principle..."
Wallace received 1, 157, 063 votes.

And were all those votes the votes of communists, you think?

"The Seventh Congress of the Comintern made the change in line official in 1935, when it declared the need for a popular front of all groups opposed to fascism."

Yeah, interesting, still not relevant to the point in contention

Nor did my post indicate that the communist were the entire isolationist movement.

No? The following sure as hell sounded like that to me:

The true believers, the the millions of communists in the United States who infiltrated the government, who supported the Soviet Union, and organized protests and marches in support of isolation and keeping the United States out of the war, spun on their collective- pun intentional- heels on June 22, 1941, to become the most vociferous supporters of entry into a war to save Uncle Joe.

Of course you're jamming so many different issues together that it is easily misunderstood.

Let me try to make the point more succinctly: the communists proved on June 22, 1941 that the only principles they hold is the well being and primacy of that early paradise and utopia, the Soviet Union.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue that point.

The Communist Party of the USA were tools of Stalin.

Evidently you are incorrect in your statement "American Communists also didn't think America should go to war..." as they reversed their position after June 22, 1941.

No, I was right because I were talking about war sentiment before Hitler and Stalin went to war, and the discussion was limited to the communist influence as it regarded the isolationist movement.

The communist party of the USA was opposed to the war when Stalin and Hitler had a pact and then reversed that position when the Soviets were threatened.

That's because they were fucking Soviet quislings, the lot of them.

Nevertheless, the American communists were not remotely in charge of, or responsible for the isloationist sentiment that was a huge part of the scene at the time.

Americans, quite rightly were disgusted with Europeans, the treaty of Versailles, and they wanted nothing to do with fighting in Europe because they'd just done that in WWI and just look what a mess that Europe had made of things again!

That and American isolationism was fairly common political sentiment in the USA since 1789.

It was a long held belief that Europe was corrupt, their roayl families immoral, and that the best thing America could do is stay out of their petty family conflicts.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The anti-war movement before WWII was not a communist plot, PC.

While it is true that the American Communists also didn't think America should go to war they were a very small part of that Isolationist movement.

Americans were really responding to the long held belief (started by the founding fathers, mostly) that the USA was better off not getting involved in Europeans wars.

So unless you think George Washington was a commie, you might want to read some real history to understand that sentiment

No, actually I don't.




Communists were they, according to you?




Interesting but not relevant to your original point. Your point, let me remind you was that the communist were behind the isolations sentiment pre WWII. Sheer blather that.



And were all those votes the votes of communists, you think?



Yeah, interesting, still not relevant to the point in contention



No? The following sure as hell sounded like that to me:



Of course you're jamming so many different issues together that it is easily misunderstood.



Yeah, I wouldn't argue that point.

The Communist Party of the USA were tools of Stalin.

Evidently you are incorrect in your statement "American Communists also didn't think America should go to war..." as they reversed their position after June 22, 1941.

No, I was right because I were talking about war sentiment before Hitler and Stalin went to war, and the discussion was limited to the communist influence as it regarded the isolationist movement.

The communist party of the USA was opposed to the war when Stalin and Hitler had a pact and then reversed that position when the Soviets were threatened.

That's because they were fucking Soviet quislings, the lot of them.

Nevertheless, the American communists were not remotely in charge of, or responsible for the isloationist sentiment that was a huge part of the scene at the time.

Americans, quite rightly were disgusted with Europeans, the treaty of Versailles, and they wanted nothing to do with fighting in Europe because they'd just done that in WWI and just look what a mess that Europe had made of things again!

That and American isolationism was fairly common political sentiment in the USA since 1789.

It was a long held belief that Europe was corrupt, their roayl families immoral, and that the best thing America could do is stay out of their petty family conflicts.

Since I write with precision, it is incumbent upon you to read with the same level of precision.

From my original post of this thread: "...organized protests and marches in support of isolation and keeping the United States out of the war, ..."

Once you clean those coke-bottle thick horn-rims, you will, I am sure, agree that the operative phrase was "in support of.'

Support means to back: be behind; approve of.

Although I believe that the communists of the time were clearly isolationists, you will be hard pressed to find a definition of 'support' which means to lead, control, or be the sole initiator of. (sorry to end a sentence with a preposition)

" ...played a prominent role in the U.S. labor movement from the 1920s through the 1940s, founding most of the country's major industrial unions..."
You suggest the unions were not thoroughly infiltrated with same. Do you actully wish to defend that point?

Henry Wallace was well identified with the Soviets, and later in life wrote a letter of apology to the America public with reference to same. As for "...And were all those votes the votes of communists,...", an obfuscation beneath you.

The reason for my posts in this thread was to make the point that communists, true believers, were paid agents of a foreign power, paid in money or ideology. I made my point clearly and stongly, and I apprecitate your agreement with same ("Yeah, I wouldn't argue that point.")

As for your claim of rectitude, "No, I was right because I were talking about war sentiment before Hitler and Stalin went to war, and the discussion was limited to the communist influence as it regarded the isolationist movement," it is empty, flaccid and pointless, since the straw man argument that you claim to win was not the argument in question.

Again, your statement "the American communists were not remotely in charge of, or responsible for the isloationist sentiment" misses the point. Should you require further explanation as to why, see my reference to the word "support."

Nevertheless, it's been fun.

 

[Xenophon]

Do you think he was not coward Xenophon???
And what about this -
On 20 March 1945, Hitler awards the Iron Cross to Hitler Youth outside his bunker. I personally think that only chicken-hearted guy could unmanly encourage naive Hitler's junge in a blind faith of victory and bullshit like that...

There is nothing 'unmanly' for a leader to not be in the front lines, a place Hitler was in by choice for four years in the great war.

Hitler was no coward in any way shape or form, all through his life he took rediculous security chances and escaped assination by chance over and over again.

His sending children to fight is also not without historical president, Napoleon did the same in 1814, it was quite common in total war stituations throughout history.

Hitler himself saw no future for Germany without himself and his views thus he had no desire to preserve the youth of germany or the country itslef, he wanted it all to burn.

Hitler was no coward, he was insane.

 

[Vaccum John]

I disagree with you. Cause Hitler just came out and stood up from his bunker to name guys and give some ranks and then, back to the warm and safe place, while his minions had to rush into the frey as all fronts were cracking and falling apart.
Well, but I agree he was insane, maybe sick in the brain as well

 

[editec]

Since I write with precision, it is incumbent upon you to read with the same level of precision.

If I misinterpreted your point, my apologies

From my original post of this thread: "...organized protests and marches in support of isolation and keeping the United States out of the war, ..."

Yes, that is a fragment of your thread.

Once you clean those coke-bottle thick horn-rims, you will, I am sure, agree that the operative phrase was "in support of.'

Possibly true.

Support means to back: be behind; approve of.

Yes it does, I agree.

Although I believe that the communists of the time were clearly isolationists, you will be hard pressed to find a definition of 'support' which means to lead, control, or be the sole initiator of. (sorry to end a sentence with a preposition)

Prepositions are perfectly okay parts of speech to end a sentence with.

" ...played a prominent role in the U.S. labor movement from the 1920s through the 1940s, founding most of the country's major industrial unions..."

Yup! you wrote that, too

You suggest the unions were not thoroughly infiltrated with same. Do you actully wish to defend that point?

It's your premise, ergo it's up to you to prove, not me to disporve.

Henry Wallace was well identified with the Soviets, and later in life wrote a letter of apology to the America public with reference to same. As for "...And were all those votes the votes of communists,...", an obfuscation beneath you.

What does "well identified with the Soviets" actually mean, exactly?

The reason for my posts in this thread was to make the point that communists, true believers, were paid agents of a foreign power, paid in money or ideology. I made my point clearly and stongly, and I apprecitate your agreement with same ("Yeah, I wouldn't argue that point.")

True is true, regardless of who says it. Those American communists who took their orders from the Kremlin ought to have been hanged or deported.

As for your claim of rectitude, "No, I was right because I were talking about war sentiment before Hitler and Stalin went to war, and the discussion was limited to the communist influence as it regarded the isolationist movement," it is empty, flaccid and pointless, since the straw man argument that you claim to win was not the argument in question.

I think I'm getting lost now in the discussion about the discussion. Can we go back to discussing the issue, instead?

Again, your statement "the American communists were not remotely in charge of, or responsible for the isloationist sentiment" misses the point.

ACtually I think that statement is MAKING a point, rather than missing yours.

Should you require further explanation as to why, see my reference to the word "support.

Nevertheless, it's been fun.

If I missed your point regarding the influence that the Communist had on the isolationist movement, simply clarifiying your point would suffice.

I gather now that your point was the American communist Party was isolationist when Stalin told them to be and pro war with Germany when Stalin told them to be, too.

That point was never one we disagreed upon.

 

[Teo Smith]

Anyways, Barbarossa was the biggest warfare operation in modern history and probably in all of it.

 

[Vaccum John]

Germany and Allies Soviet Union Ratio
Divisions 166 190 1 : 1.1
Personnel 4,306,800 3,289,851 1.3 : 1
Guns and mortars 42,601 59,787 1 : 1.4
Tanks (incl assault guns) 4,171 15,687 1 : 3.8
Aircraft 4,389 11, 537 1 : 2.6

 

[Vaccum John]

can't make any adjustments and lines here