YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JakeStarkey]

Nah, you are not intimidating enough to be a bully, which is good for you on this thread.

Yours is the only prideful matter here, and your comment is dismissed.

And you appear meek and humble.......NOT!

to think he was insinuating I was the bully.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your request has been denied. It has already been fulfilled.!

I'm confused. Are you still playing the part of the wealthy businessman extraordinaire and super soldier, or are you now Judged Judy?

So you are now admitting they did not use the Christian honorifics in addressing the "lord".

Your arguments are overruled and dismissed then.

What is it that "you" say.... evidence has already been given.

You on the other hand have provided no evidence that any of the founding fathers ever wrote or publicly stated (and was documented, as many of their other statemenst were) that they did NOT believe in Yeshua, the Savior. You did post evidence where particular denominations or the establishment of a "state" religion were rejected, but nothing demonstrating the personal beliefs of these men.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Indeed, the FFs would not have wanted the government in the hands of the far right christians today. But if they had achieved dominion, they would be stopped by the Constitution. That is exactly what has happened in the last several decades.

 

[logical4u]

I merely rebuked your immoral stubbornness with a righteous rebuke, one Christian to another.

Yours is the only prideful matter here, and your comment is dismissed.

And you appear meek and humble.......NOT!

Yet you provide no evidence where these strong, opinionated FF declared themselves to be atheists or not to believe in the Savior, Yeshua.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The information that several were not Christian has been provided to you over and over.

I merely rebuked your immoral stubbornness with a righteous rebuke, one Christian to another.

And you appear meek and humble.......NOT!

Yet you provide no evidence where these strong, opinionated FF declared themselves to be atheists or not to believe in the Savior, Yeshua.

 

[logical4u]

Sweety, I am surprised you can't understand that Christianity clearly did influence the FF’s and their narrative we call the constitution.

The FF’s knew all too well the negative effects that Christianity had on the lives of the people in England. Their writings absolutely identified that they knew the dangers of allowing religion to interfere in government. That is why they drafted a form of government that put a muzzle on the government’s ability to interfere in the lives of the citizenry.

Yes, the corruption of the truth continues.

If "Christianity" was soooo bad, why did people come to this country to worship the Lord in their specific denomination?
The FF wanted no "state" established religion to avoid gov't leaders from thinking they had the authority to tell "citizens" (different than subjects) how to worship (choose their denomination).

They did not try to prevent the Christian faith from being practiced or sugjugated (that would be the current administration).

Well actually, the original colonies were horrors of christian religious intolerance.

The various sects of Christianity were completely at odds with one another as colonial states. Catholics couldn't live in one state, Quakers were executed if they went to another, Protestants were reviled in still others, and so on. These documents still exist. Research the laws of the original 13 colonies. You'll be surprised at what can learn… not that I’m accusing you of trying to learn anything.

America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

I just find it shocking SHOCKING that Christians can be just as totalitarian and dogmatic as… well… the Taliban or even… well… fundie Christians.

The better motivation is to accept the world for what it was, in the only way one can perceive the world, with reason and knowledge. Better still, I read more than christian books to get a true perspective on all religions (reading books on Christianity only proved to me that the believers in Christianity could not self-critique either themselves or Christianity-- it always reads like pro-Christiany propaganda). And interestingly, they all fail for the same reason. Which is, of course, reason.

We were discussing the formulation of the US gov't, not how the "colonies" were 100 years before that. No one is denying that there were some terrrible things that happened among Christians. What I will tell you is that you will be hard pressed to find ANY evidence where there are communities declaring that murdering people "is God's will". You might find some corrupt leaders trying to manipulate people, but not whole communities (as you find in islam).

Can you present any evidence where those "atrocities" (most likely, asking some to leave, in a rude manner)that took place after the signing of the Constitution?

And yeah, I hear your BS about the Taliban, but yet no evidence of where Christians tie a man, have four men hold him, have a fifth man SAW OFF HIS HEAD, while a sixth man videos the whole thing. No documented suicide bombers in the Christian faith, yelling "this is for the Lord" or "it is God's will".

The intellectual dishonesty and deceit continues.

 

[logical4u]

The evidence that Jefferson was not a Christian has been posted several times above.

You are not allowed to keep asking for material with which you disagree.

Overruled and dismissed.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection.

You can certainly choose to disbelieve anything you wish.

The fact remains that Jefferson did not believe in Jesus as a savior and did not believe in a resurrection. You can choose not to believe what Jefferson wrote and you can choose not to believe that he was a Deist.

You would of course be wrong. Your certainty that you know things you obviously don’t know is amusing. That said, I happen to find the truth to be very satisfying. Certainty may be even more satisfying, but what has that gained you if your certainty is delusional?

I hear you talking, but again, no evidence that it was as you say....

You screamed and screamed for any reference of God in the Constitution. It was provided.

You make statements and call them facts, but I have seen no evidence that Jefferson ever declared himself not to believe in Yeshua. I have seen no evidence where Jefferson stated that he was a "deist". I find your re-stating of opinions without ever presenting evidence and declaring said opinions as "fact" as deceitful, and intellectually dishonest.

No, there was no evidence where Jefferson declared himself NOT to be a Christian, or NOT to believe in Yeshua.

Pretty simple to provide if he documented his faith like he did everything else he believed....

 

[logical4u]

Hogwash, logical4u, you should have your mouth washed out with soap.

The Puritans hung witches and Quakers for practicing their faiths.

The Congregationalists made it hard on Baptists in Connecticut.

In Virginia, failure to take your child to church on two separate complaints could have your child removed from your custody.

Mormons were driven from Missouri and Illinois, and persecuted in Utah Territory, where the Mormons did a good job of persecuting back.

You simply must key away without thinking.

Give me the number of deaths, and those that comitted "atrocities" chanting "it is God's will".

 

[logical4u]

So which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord.

I'll wait while you Google some more fail.

There was an Arabic calendar. There was a mayan calendar. They could have been "prideful" and started their own calendar. They could have simply left out "the year of our Lord" with just the date.

Yes, I can see them using the Mayan calendar to date their documents. That's totally within the realm of possibilities.

The mental gymnastics you've got going on here are Olympic caliber.

I can't even come close to the twisting and jumping being done by those trying to prove that this is not a Christian nation!

 

[logical4u]

I just find it shocking SHOCKING that Christians can be just as totalitarian and dogmatic as… well… the Taliban or even… well… fundie Christians.

Of course you mean minus beheading all the homosexuals, suicide bombers, and honor killings right?

PHOENIX -- An Iraqi immigrant was sentenced Friday to 34 1/2 years in an Arizona prison for running over and killing his 20-year-old daughter because she became too Westernized.

Arizona 'Honor Killing': Iraqi Immigrant Sentenced To 34 1/2 Years In Prison For Running Over, Killing Daughter

I do find it interesting that you would compare some of your co-religionists to Islamic fundies. There is, among the more excitable of the fundie Christians in the this country, a certain fondness for the same attitudes embraced by the Taliban.

Fortunately, we in this nation have a secular government that serves to throttle the Christian Taliban.

Have you ever considered that among the reasons the FF’s realized the need for a secular constitution was precisely the behavior of Christians in the early settlements? Those lovely folks were just as intolerant and hateful as folks like you.

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence of Christians doing the same terroristic crimes against those in their community since the signing of the Constitution.

 

[logical4u]

Indeed, the FFs would not have wanted the government in the hands of the far right christians today. But if they had achieved dominion, they would be stopped by the Constitution. That is exactly what has happened in the last several decades.

Evidence/links?

The "gov't" has been in the hands of the far left for decades. Kill the babies, spare the murderers. Child rape is not really a crime, because the child was dress seductively. The left's favorite sexual predator will be giving the keynote address at the democrat convention. Interfere with religions by writing a law that FORCES people to go against their religions, etc, etc, etc.

Or are you suggesting that trying to protect "babies" is a terrible, terrible crime?

Your intelectual dishonesty and deceit continue.

 

[logical4u]

The information that several were not Christian has been provided to you over and over.

I merely rebuked your immoral stubbornness with a righteous rebuke, one Christian to another.

Yet you provide no evidence where these strong, opinionated FF declared themselves to be atheists or not to believe in the Savior, Yeshua.

No where is there a quote attributed to the names you listed stating that they were not Christians, or that they did not believe in Yeshua.

In other words, you are blowing smoke.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I just find it shocking SHOCKING that Christians can be just as totalitarian and dogmatic as… well… the Taliban or even… well… fundie Christians.

Of course you mean minus beheading all the homosexuals, suicide bombers, and honor killings right?

PHOENIX -- An Iraqi immigrant was sentenced Friday to 34 1/2 years in an Arizona prison for running over and killing his 20-year-old daughter because she became too Westernized.

Arizona 'Honor Killing': Iraqi Immigrant Sentenced To 34 1/2 Years In Prison For Running Over, Killing Daughter

I do find it interesting that you would compare some of your co-religionists to Islamic fundies. There is, among the more excitable of the fundie Christians in the this country, a certain fondness for the same attitudes embraced by the Taliban.

Fortunately, we in this nation have a secular government that serves to throttle the Christian Taliban.

Have you ever considered that among the reasons the FF’s realized the need for a secular constitution was precisely the behavior of Christians in the early settlements? Those lovely folks were just as intolerant and hateful as folks like you.

The liberal mindset: there was absolutely no al Qaeda in Iraq despite the evidence, but hides quaking in shadows from something that simply doesnt exist, the 'Christian Taliban'.

Of course, I doubt you mean a word of what you say as this discussion has degenerated into a poop flinging fest and you will say whatever to make the desired effect.

But there is no Christian Taliban. If there were, secular Nazis wouldnt be ******* with Christians as much as they do, in the same way they avoid ******* with the Muslims.

But dont wait too long before the reigning secular intolerance does in fact produce a Christian Taliban, and you will then be complaining of something that is of your own making.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The information that several were not Christian has been provided to you over and over.

Yet you provide no evidence where these strong, opinionated FF declared themselves to be atheists or not to believe in the Savior, Yeshua.

No where is there a quote attributed to the names you listed stating that they were not Christians, or that they did not believe in Yeshua.

In other words, you are blowing smoke.

In other words he is being Jake "the Poop Flinging Monkey" Starkey.

 

[Hollie]

Of course you mean minus beheading all the homosexuals, suicide bombers, and honor killings right?

PHOENIX -- An Iraqi immigrant was sentenced Friday to 34 1/2 years in an Arizona prison for running over and killing his 20-year-old daughter because she became too Westernized.

Arizona 'Honor Killing': Iraqi Immigrant Sentenced To 34 1/2 Years In Prison For Running Over, Killing Daughter

I do find it interesting that you would compare some of your co-religionists to Islamic fundies. There is, among the more excitable of the fundie Christians in the this country, a certain fondness for the same attitudes embraced by the Taliban.

Fortunately, we in this nation have a secular government that serves to throttle the Christian Taliban.

Have you ever considered that among the reasons the FF’s realized the need for a secular constitution was precisely the behavior of Christians in the early settlements? Those lovely folks were just as intolerant and hateful as folks like you.

The liberal mindset: there was absolutely no al Qaeda in Iraq despite the evidence, but hides quaking in shadows from something that simply doesnt exist, the 'Christian Taliban'.

Of course, I doubt you mean a word of what you say as this discussion has degenerated into a poop flinging fest and you will say whatever to make the desired effect.

But there is no Christian Taliban. If there were, secular Nazis wouldnt be ******* with Christians as much as they do, in the same way they avoid ******* with the Muslims.

But dont wait too long before the reigning secular intolerance does in fact produce a Christian Taliban, and you will then be complaining of something that is of your own making.

I’m not sure how you missed it but your argument self-refutes: “no al Qaeda in Iraq despite the evidence”.

I suppose the chronic internecine hate-fest that causes the sunni holy warriors toward mass killings of Shiites is all just a conspiracy.

The subtle threats are interesting. The Taliban make similar threats: “hey, don’t attempt to confront our proscription for following the example of a 7th century warlord “prophet”. If you try and stop us, we can’t be held responsible for our actions”.

Oh my, you poor, oppressed Christians. Was the Dubya’ administrations holy war in Iraq not enough fun?

 

[logical4u]

I do find it interesting that you would compare some of your co-religionists to Islamic fundies. There is, among the more excitable of the fundie Christians in the this country, a certain fondness for the same attitudes embraced by the Taliban.

Fortunately, we in this nation have a secular government that serves to throttle the Christian Taliban.

Have you ever considered that among the reasons the FF’s realized the need for a secular constitution was precisely the behavior of Christians in the early settlements? Those lovely folks were just as intolerant and hateful as folks like you.

The liberal mindset: there was absolutely no al Qaeda in Iraq despite the evidence, but hides quaking in shadows from something that simply doesnt exist, the 'Christian Taliban'.

Of course, I doubt you mean a word of what you say as this discussion has degenerated into a poop flinging fest and you will say whatever to make the desired effect.

But there is no Christian Taliban. If there were, secular Nazis wouldnt be ******* with Christians as much as they do, in the same way they avoid ******* with the Muslims.

But dont wait too long before the reigning secular intolerance does in fact produce a Christian Taliban, and you will then be complaining of something that is of your own making.

I’m not sure how you missed it but your argument self-refutes: “no al Qaeda in Iraq despite the evidence”.

I suppose the chronic internecine hate-fest that causes the sunni holy warriors toward mass killings of Shiites is all just a conspiracy.

The subtle threats are interesting. The Taliban make similar threats: “hey, don’t attempt to confront our proscription for following the example of a 7th century warlord “prophet”. If you try and stop us, we can’t be held responsible for our actions”.

Oh my, you poor, oppressed Christians. Was the Dubya’ administrations holy war in Iraq not enough fun?

So Hollie, how would "you" suggest we deal with people that kill over 3000 American citizens in under one hour?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Study the LDS history from the 1830s through 1900. Study the murders of LDS missionaries and LDS followers simply because of their religion in Mormon Menace.

Can you present any evidence where those "atrocities" (most likely, asking some to leave, in a rude manner)that took place after the signing of the Constitution?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The evidence is clear that Jefferson was not a Christian, which you asked for. Now you want to move the goal post. Wrong.

The evidence that Jefferson was not a Christian has been posted several times above.

You are not allowed to keep asking for material with which you disagree.

Overruled and dismissed.

I hear you talking, but again, no evidence that it was as you say....

You screamed and screamed for any reference of God in the Constitution. It was provided.

You make statements and call them facts, but I have seen no evidence that Jefferson ever declared himself not to believe in Yeshua. I have seen no evidence where Jefferson stated that he was a "deist". I find your re-stating of opinions without ever presenting evidence and declaring said opinions as "fact" as deceitful, and intellectually dishonest.

No, there was no evidence where Jefferson declared himself NOT to be a Christian, or NOT to believe in Yeshua.

Pretty simple to provide if he documented his faith like he did everything else he believed....

 

[JakeStarkey]

You were answered and now you are moving the goal posts. Wrong.

Hogwash, logical4u, you should have your mouth washed out with soap.

The Puritans hung witches and Quakers for practicing their faiths.

The Congregationalists made it hard on Baptists in Connecticut.

In Virginia, failure to take your child to church on two separate complaints could have your child removed from your custody.

Mormons were driven from Missouri and Illinois, and persecuted in Utah Territory, where the Mormons did a good job of persecuting back.

You simply must key away without thinking.

Give me the number of deaths, and those that comitted "atrocities" chanting "it is God's will".

 

[JakeStarkey]

Given above several times.

Of course you mean minus beheading all the homosexuals, suicide bombers, and honor killings right?

PHOENIX -- An Iraqi immigrant was sentenced Friday to 34 1/2 years in an Arizona prison for running over and killing his 20-year-old daughter because she became too Westernized.

Arizona 'Honor Killing': Iraqi Immigrant Sentenced To 34 1/2 Years In Prison For Running Over, Killing Daughter

I do find it interesting that you would compare some of your co-religionists to Islamic fundies. There is, among the more excitable of the fundie Christians in the this country, a certain fondness for the same attitudes embraced by the Taliban.

Fortunately, we in this nation have a secular government that serves to throttle the Christian Taliban.

Have you ever considered that among the reasons the FF’s realized the need for a secular constitution was precisely the behavior of Christians in the early settlements? Those lovely folks were just as intolerant and hateful as folks like you.

Still waiting for you to provide any evidence of Christians doing the same terroristic crimes against those in their community since the signing of the Constitution.