Wow, 2 Posts For Spain

[Annie]

They are taking appeasement to unknown heights!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/03/international/asia/03spai.html?pagewanted=print&position=

Excerpt:

August 3, 2004
Spain Considers Financing for Major Religions
By RENWICK McLEAN

ADRID, Aug. 2 - The Spanish government has begun formal discussions on a proposal to expand financing to religious institutions, and security officials say that one intention is to subsidize mosques to make them less dependent on money from militant groups abroad.

The Justice Ministry proposal, which legal scholars say is likely to test the limits of Spain's separation of church and state, reflects a widespread belief among counterterrorism officials here that Spanish mosques are vulnerable to the influences of militant groups because they feel the need to turn to the militants for money.

The discussions, led by Juan Fernando López Aguilar, the justice minister, are still in early stages, officials said. The ministry has not decided what form the proposal will take, or if it will be submitted to Parliament for approval, a justice official said. In public, Mr. López Aguilar and his deputies have mainly portrayed the proposal as egalitarian, intended to offer all of Spain's major religions the same treatment given the Roman Catholic Church, which has received state financing under a supposedly temporary agreement reached with the Vatican in 1979.

But officials in the Interior and Justice Ministries say there is another motive as well. "It's about keeping them from having to look outside for financing because the state does not, in a way, support their activities," Antonio Camacho, the secretary of state security at the Interior Ministry, said in an interview.

Spanish investigators said the terrorists who blew up four trains in Madrid on March 11, killing 191 people, attended mosques here that had ties to Wahhabism, a militant form of Islam that is the predominant doctrine in Saudi Arabia.

Spain has six formally established mosques and 220 to 230 small, informal ones, according to the Islamic Commission of Spain, which is recognized by the government as the official voice of Spain's Muslims.

The proposal to finance mosques has stoked opposition from conservatives. An editorial in the center-right newspaper El Mundo said it was a mistake because Islam "does not defend tolerance."

 

[Avatar4321]

this could seriously backfire. First, mixing politics and religion always contains some risk, but what is to stop the mosques from using this money from the Spanish government in future terrorist attacks against them? Trust me Spain is high on the terrorist hitlist. They long for the day when they can take back their paradise of Al Andulus.

 

[Annie]

this could seriously backfire. First, mixing politics and religion always contains some risk, but what is to stop the mosques from using this money from the Spanish government in future terrorist attacks against them? Trust me Spain is high on the terrorist hitlist. They long for the day when they can take back their paradise of Al Andulus.

Agreed. They don't know when to stop, just keep digging...

 

[nbdysfu]

ADRID, Aug. 2 - The Spanish government has begun formal discussions on a proposal to expand financing to religious institutions, and security officials say that one intention is to subsidize mosques to make them less dependent on money from militant groups abroad.

I don't know. This may be smarter than it sounds. I can think of two good reasons to do it.

#1) is that it evens the playing field in terms of money by making it dependent simply on how many adherents your church has, rather than how fundamentally financially devout your following is. Less aggressive religions win in this situation.

#2)The mosques are no longer [as] dependent on militant exterior entities, they are now at least somewhat dependent on the secular [as of yet] government. In this situation the government may be able to force conditions on them more easily, and that most liberal of situations known as a "dialog" is created.

#3) It's probably easier to follow your own money to terrorist recipients. Although Kofi annan's son wouldn't say so.

I can think of ways to refute these, like number two. That may lead into a situation where your government is competing with the external forces to provide funding. At this point the nation or entity with the most wreckless checkbook wins. And this is Socialist Spain rather than Reagan's america, so I have a feeling this is not a good idea. Number one depends on there being a religion with at least equal numbers and preferably greater.

CIA world factbook says:

Ethnic groups:
composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types
Religions:
Roman Catholic 94%, other 6%
Languages:
Castilian Spanish 74%, Catalan 17%, Galician 7%, Basque 2%
note: Castilian is the official language nationwide; the other languages are official regionally

So if this is done on a per capita basis, It should not pose any problems.

 

[Annie]

I don't know. This may be smarter than it sounds. I can think of two good reasons to do it.

#1) is that it evens the playing field in terms of money by making it dependent simply on how many adherents your church has, rather than how fundamentally financially devout your following is. Less aggressive religions win in this situation.

#2)The mosques are no longer [as] dependent on militant exterior entities, they are now at least somewhat dependent on the secular [as of yet] government. In this situation the government may be able to force conditions on them more easily, and that most liberal of situations known as a "dialog" is created.

#3) It's probably easier to follow your own money to terrorist recipients. Although Kofi annan's son wouldn't say so.

I can think of ways to refute these, like number two. That may lead into a situation where your government is competing with the external forces to provide funding. At this point the nation or entity with the most wreckless checkbook wins. And this is Socialist Spain rather than Reagan's america, so I have a feeling this is not a good idea. Number one depends on there being a religion with at least equal numbers and preferably greater.

CIA world factbook says:


So if this is done on a per capita basis, It should not pose any problems.

But how do you keep the outside money out?

 

[nbdysfu]

But how do you keep the outside money out?

You don't. In a free society there shouldn't be such limitation. But to a point. Research, and then blacklist any funds which are militant. Make receiving money from the state conditional on avoiding these sources, and make individual leaders criminally responsible for any bad funds they receive.

The R. Catholic Church receives money from the Spanish state. We've all said most muslims aren't terrorists. I think this is one instance where tolerance is needed. Make friendly with the sects and individual congregations that are peaceable. Condemn the ones that aren't. Otherwise you risk pushing the one that aren't militant into a situation where they feel no link to the christian population, and are easy fodder for the militant clerics' brigades.

I'd really only be worried about the money the mosques have going out to hotspots.

 

[Annie]

You don't. In a free society there shouldn't be such limitation. But to a point. Research, and then blacklist any funds which are militant. Make receiving money from the state conditional on avoiding these sources, and make individual leaders criminally responsible for any bad funds they receive.

The R. Catholic Church receives money from the Spanish state. We've all said most muslims aren't terrorists. I think this is one instance where tolerance is needed. Make friendly with the sects and individual congregations that are peaceable. Condemn the ones that aren't. Otherwise you risk pushing the one that aren't militant into a situation where they feel no link to the christian population, and are easy fodder for the militant clerics' brigades.

I'd really only be worried about the money the mosques have going out to hotspots.

While we usually agree, at least somewhat, on this issue I think we part company. There is an assumption, faulty from everything I've seen, that the mosques are not already radicalized. That may be true even here. I've kept hearing it said that most muslims aren't terrorists, that I believe. That does not presume they aren't sympathetic to the ends, if not the means.

Something just strikes me wrong with this.