Would 'Gun Control' Reduce Murder?

[Spoonman]

bolt or lever action for all firearms with non detachable magazines ... would reduce the violence and casualties in all instances.

well except for the fact the high capacity magazines account for less than 400 of the total 11,000 gun homicides a year.

 

[Spoonman]

In 2007, we had 15,000 homicides and the UK had less than 1,000. Obviously they are doing something right and we're doing something wrong.

yes, but gun laws had nothing to do with it. because they had low rates before they added the strick gun laws, now we have dropped that 15,000 number to 11,000 since eliminating the assault weapons ban while at the same time nearly doubling the amount of guns in the hands of civilians. more guns, less violence. go figure.

 

[NYcarbineer]

gun control has yet to be able to show results better than no gun control. In the whole gun control argument, that is the one truth that can not be disputed.

Then I take it you believe that a convicted bank robber, on the day he gets out of prison, should be able to go buy an AR-15 the same day,

no questions asked?

 

[martybegan]

gun control has yet to be able to show results better than no gun control. In the whole gun control argument, that is the one truth that can not be disputed.

Then I take it you believe that a convicted bank robber, on the day he gets out of prison, should be able to go buy an AR-15 the same day,

no questions asked?

A convicted felon can be denied rights as he has been through due process, consisting of a trial by jury. Denying him the right to own firearms is just one of the rights lost upon conviction.

However, trying to prevent said felon from owning a weapon should not make it harder or impossible for me to get an AR-15 should I choose to do it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In 2007, we had 15,000 homicides and the UK had less than 1,000. Obviously they are doing something right and we're doing something wrong.

Teaching their kids that murder is bad?

 

[NYcarbineer]

So the study purports to show that gun control doesn't control murder by means other than guns??

lolol, my first literal LOL of the day!!!

 

[candycorn]

So the study purports to show that gun control doesn't control murder by means other than guns??

lolol, my first literal LOL of the day!!!

If guns made a society safer, we'd have the safest society in the history of the universe. Instead we have one of the most violent and are "raised in violence" according to one guy on this thread.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[candycorn]

In 2007, we had 15,000 homicides and the UK had less than 1,000. Obviously they are doing something right and we're doing something wrong.

yes, but gun laws had nothing to do with it. because they had low rates before they added the strick gun laws, now we have dropped that 15,000 number to 11,000 since eliminating the assault weapons ban while at the same time nearly doubling the amount of guns in the hands of civilians. more guns, less violence. go figure.

Why did they have lower rates before?

 

[shintao]

Well, well, well.....we just got the answer.
And, from Harvard, no less.


1. " A study published in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy this spring calls into question the conventional wisdom behind arguments for more strict gun control. Namely, the idea that fewer guns would equal less deadly violence.

2. Will a Harvard man listen to Harvard research?

Probably not, if the Harvard man is Barack Obama, and what Harvard’s saying flies in the face of liberal pieties – and misconceptions and lies – about gun ownership, gun violence and gun control...

3 .Like the recently reported CDC study about gun violence Obama commissioned himself, the message to gun grabbers is clear:

They’re wrong.

4. A Harvard study released in the spring .... focused on the prevalence of gun ownership in the United States versus those strict gun-control countries in Europe the left is so fond of talking about.

5. Looking at historical patterns in the United States from the colonial and post-colonial days, and in Europe going back to the time before guns were even invented, ...a clear conclusion:

“Nations with higher gun ownership rates … do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership…”

a. Russia. Under communist rule, the former Soviet union was largely disarmed by the government for the better part of a century, has a homicide rate four times higher than the U.S.




6. .... if guns aren’t the true source of the problem, we’d best be honest and open about that, so we can better focus on finding real solutions.

7. ... solutions have much more to do with reversing the breakdown of the two-parent family, and our culture’s wide-armed embrace of moral relativism."Harvard Study: Banning Guns Would Not Reduce Murder






8. "Heavily armed Norwegians, where gun ownership is highest in Western Europe, have the continent’s lowest homicide rate, researchers Don Kates and Gary Mauser wrote.

9. In the United States, homicide rates were relatively low, despite periods when firearms were widely available – the colonial era, when Americans were the world’s most heavily armed population, the post-Civil War years, when the country was awash in surplus guns and filled with men trained to use them.

10. And today?

Communities where gun-ownership rates are highest are where the homicide rates are lowest,...."
Harvard study proves gun-grabbers? argument dead wrong - BizPac Review





How often are Liberals going to be proven wrong, and conservatives correct, before folks on the Left learn???


Avagadro's number comes to mind.....

You have a few laughable remarks peppering what is an excellent study. 1)That Obama wouldn't listen to the data, 2) that Liberals are the sole gun grabbers, and 3) that Liberal beliefs somehow affect the homicide rate.

1.Your deception that Obama is the only bad guy doesn't hold water. What you have done with this otherwise excellent artilcle is create a false sense of security for gun owners to believe ONLY LIBERALS are gun grabbers. And UNTIL you can get over that, do not expect to turn back the tide towards restoring the 2nd. For instance, every Republican President since Nixon has been a gun grabber and wrote more gun laws and did more damage to the 2nd than any other party affiliation. YOU wrote & passed Brady. You confisticated and banned assault weapons. You stole the gun rights of US citizens. Now when you can deal honestly with that, you might write a good article that focuses on the problem, not baiting people into arguments.

2. On gun grabbing,.......
In 1969, journalist William Safire asked Richard Nixon what he thought about gun control. "Guns are an abomination," Nixon replied. According to Safire, Nixon went on to confess that, "He favored making handguns illegal and requiring licenses for hunting rifles."

Governor Ronald Reagan of California who signed the Mulford Act in 1967, "prohibiting the carrying of firearms on one's person or in a vehicle, in any public place or on any public street." Reagan wrote in a 1975 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine, “who say that gun control is an idea whose time has come.”

Reagan-Metzenbaum bill would have outlawed many thousands of small, all-metal handguns, such as derringers.

The Brady Bill initially struggled for support in Congress, but was gaining ground by the latter days of Reagan’s predecessor, President George H.W. Bush. In a 1991 op-ed for the New York Times, Reagan voiced his support for the Brady Bill, saying the 1981 assassination attempt might have never happened if the Brady Bill had been law.

“Reagan last week declared his support for a bill requiring a seven-day waiting period for handgun purchases. He did so at a George Washington University ceremony marking the 10th anniversary of the shooting that almost killed him and permanently disabled his press secretary, James S. Brady.

“It is called the Brady Bill, and Reagan said Congress should enact it without delay. ‘It's just plain common sense that there be a waiting period to allow local law enforcement officials to conduct background checks on those who wish to buy a handgun,’ the former president said.’”

President George Bush, Sr. who banned the import of "assault weapons" in 1989, and promoted the view that Americans should only be allowed to own weapons suitable for "sporting purposes."

In 1980, Bush ran for the Presidency. He still liked gun control enough to endorse the idea of a ban on small, inexpensive handguns (so-called "Saturday Night Specials").

Ban automatic weapons & high-capacity ammunition clips
Supports stronger enforcement of existing gun laws, would provide more funding for aggressive gun law enforcement programs such as Project Exile in Richmond, Virginia
Supports requiring instant background checks at gun shows by allowing gun show promoters to access the instant check system on behalf of vendors
Supports law-abiding American’s constitutional right to own guns to protect their families and home
Supports the current ban on automatic weapons
Supports banning the importation of foreign made, “high-capacity” ammunition clips
Supports voluntary safety locks
Opposes government mandated registration of all guns owned by law abiding citizens
Source: GeorgeWBush.com: ‘Issues: Policy Points Overview’ , Apr 2, 2000

More laws & enforcement on juveniles with guns
Supports automatic detention for kids who commit crimes with guns
Supports banning juveniles from possession of semi-automatic “assault” weapons
Supports increasing the minimum age for possession of a handgun from 18 to 21
Source: GeorgeWBush.com: ‘Issues: Policy Points Overview’ , Apr 2, 2000

Best gun control is more prosecution & certain jail
Q: You are in favor of some gun controls?
A: I’m in favor of keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn’t have them like felons & juveniles. I’m for enforcing the laws on the books. In Texas, we’ve armed D.A.’s with extra money to prosecute people who break the law. We need to send a signal to people, don’t be illegally selling guns and don’t be illegally using guns. The best accountability for somebody who breaks the law with a gun is called jail, certain jail. Bush opposed repeal of the 1994 assault weapon ban. Bush says he “supports the current ban of fully- automatic machine guns.”


The entrapment of Randy Weaver, the killing of Sammy and Sara Weaver, and the subsequent FBI coverup all took place during the Bush administration. So did the investigation of David Koresh, and the planning for the unprovoked tank, helicopter, and grenade assault on the home of the Branch Davidians. President Bush failed miserably to uphold his Presidential oath to ensure that the laws be faithfully executed.

William Bennett—on his first day in office—convinced the Treasury Department to outlaw the import of several models of so-called "assault weapons." May of 1989, President Bush made the import ban permanent, and proposed a ban on all magazines holding more than 15 rounds.

Republican mayor Rudolph Giuliani of New York City, whose administration sued 26 gun manufacturers in June 2000.

Republican, New York State Governor George Pataki, on August 10, 2000, signed into law what The New York Times called "the nation's strictest gun controls," a radical program mandating trigger locks, background checks at gun shows and "ballistic fingerprinting" of guns sold in the state. It also raised the legal age to buy a handgun to 21 and banned "assault weapons," the sale or possession of which would now be punishable by seven years in prison.
http://int-history.blogspot.com/2011/10/us-republicans-gun-control.html
Gun Rights and President Ronald Reagan - A Pro-Second Amendment President Who Supported Gun Control

George W, Bush Q: Do you support the Brady Bill?
BUSH: We ought to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. That’s why I’m for instant background checks at gun shows. I’m for trigger locks. I think we ought to raise the age at which juveniles can have a gun. I also believe that the best way to make sure that we keep our society safe is to hold people accountable for breaking the law. If we catch somebody illegally selling a gun, there needs to be a consequence. The federal government can help.


==========
Romney
Campaigning for the Senate in 1994, Romney said he favored strong gun laws and did not “line up with the NRA.”

I would have signed the assault weapon ban that came to his desk. I said I would have supported that and signed a similar bill in our state. We should check on the backgrounds of people who are trying to purchase guns. We also should keep weapons of unusual lethality from being on the street. In 2004, Gov. Romney signed a firearms reform bill that made permanent the ban on assault weapons as well as clarified and insured other rights and responsibilities for gun owners.

Governor Mitt Romney has signed into law a permanent assault weapons ban that he says will make it harder for criminals to get their hands on these guns. Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts, Romney said, at a bill signing ceremony on July 1 with legislators, sportsmen's groups and gun safety advocates. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people. Like the federal assault weapons ban, the state ban, put in place in 1998, was scheduled to expire in September. The new law ensures these deadly weapons, including AK-47s, UZIs and Mac-10 rifles, are permanently prohibited in Massachusetts no matter what happens on the federal level.

OK? The problem is the right does not recognize they are infiltrated with gun grabbers at the very top of the regimes, and would vote in more Presidents who would gladly do the same. The 2nd is more important than corporate blessings & other BS the right supports. For instance, in the 6 years Bush had total control of the US gov in all three branches, he did not recind one gun rights law, instead he wrote more!!! And where the FK was the NRA for 6 years?? As you can see, there is a conspiracy coming from both sides of the isle to grab our guns and eradicate the 2nd.

3.As to "reversing the breakdown of the two-parent family, and our culture’s wide-armed embrace of moral relativism," what makes you think that is the answer? What about Christianity being the problem? What about a constant state of war being the problem? What about video games & movies showing gun violence the problem. The author is being disengenious, biased, deceptive, and once again producing a seed of false sense of security that allows gun violence to continue.

By the way, I beleive every American has a right to bare arms uninfringed by ANY laws, and that includes felons and the insane. If you can't live with that, YOU are part of the problem. Because anytime -ANYTIME!!!!!!!!!- you take away someone else's rights, you have just limited your own. You have set yourself up with a gov foot in the door to take your rights.

 

[Spoonman]

gun control has yet to be able to show results better than no gun control. In the whole gun control argument, that is the one truth that can not be disputed.

Then I take it you believe that a convicted bank robber, on the day he gets out of prison, should be able to go buy an AR-15 the same day,

no questions asked?

can he be denied the right to vote too? and drive a car? and keep his money in a bank?

 

[ClosedCaption]

Will it stop muders? or will it reduce murders?

You're being tricky with words with the OP question

 

[Spoonman]

In 2007, we had 15,000 homicides and the UK had less than 1,000. Obviously they are doing something right and we're doing something wrong.

yes, but gun laws had nothing to do with it. because they had low rates before they added the strick gun laws, now we have dropped that 15,000 number to 11,000 since eliminating the assault weapons ban while at the same time nearly doubling the amount of guns in the hands of civilians. more guns, less violence. go figure.

Why did they have lower rates before?

that is the question we should be trying to answer instead of banning guns. because the answer to that is the solution to the problem. not banning guns

 

[Katzndogz]

Maybe they have fewer parents like trayvon martin's parents.

 

[NYcarbineer]

gun control has yet to be able to show results better than no gun control. In the whole gun control argument, that is the one truth that can not be disputed.

Then I take it you believe that a convicted bank robber, on the day he gets out of prison, should be able to go buy an AR-15 the same day,

no questions asked?

can he be denied the right to vote too? and drive a car? and keep his money in a bank?

Is that a yes or a no?

Let me repeat the question:

Then I take it you believe that a convicted bank robber, on the day he gets out of prison, should be able to go buy an AR-15 the same day,

no questions asked?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Will it stop muders? or will it reduce murders?

You're being tricky with words with the OP question

Let me quote directly from the study on Russia, which gets a mention in the OP:

"...stringent gun controls that were effectuated
by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them."

Not quite the picture painted by the OP, eh?

 

[PoliticalChic]

In 2007, we had 15,000 homicides and the UK had less than 1,000. Obviously they are doing something right and we're doing something wrong.

Considering we have more people its not suprising.

Adjust for population and your 15 to 1 ratio turns into a 3 to 1 ratio.

Much, Much different.

(Based on a US pop of 311M vs a UK pop of 62M)

Obviously they're doing something right and we're doing something wrong; unless you don't value those other 2 people's lives....

BRITAIN may have slipped down many world league tables over the past few decades, but it beats all other rich countries except Australia in one activity: crime. According to a new victimisation survey of industrialised nations, people in England and Wales are at greater risk than anywhere else of having a car stolen. And apart from Australia, people who live in England and Wales are at greater risk of being assaulted, robbed, sexually attacked and having their homes burgled than are people in any other rich country. A nation of criminals | The Economist



Stuart Varney of Fox Business was discussing the fact that his mother lives in England, and her fear, each and every day, is a thug pushing in the door and attacking her.

You understand why that is far more rare in the United States?
Folks with guns to defend themselves and their property.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So the study purports to show that gun control doesn't control murder by means other than guns??

lolol, my first literal LOL of the day!!!

If guns made a society safer, we'd have the safest society in the history of the universe. Instead we have one of the most violent and are "raised in violence" according to one guy on this thread.

Gee, I wonder why?

There are more guns today….yet the murder rate, which was 10.7/ 100k in 1980…is now 4.8 (2011) DoJ stats….

Clearly not association between guns and the murder rate.


2/3 of gun deaths are suicide.
Suicide Rates Surge, Now Account For 2/3 Of Gun Deaths

 

[martybegan]

Will it stop muders? or will it reduce murders?

You're being tricky with words with the OP question

Let me quote directly from the study on Russia, which gets a mention in the OP:

"...stringent gun controls that were effectuated
by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them."

Not quite the picture painted by the OP, eh?

Yeah, because Russia is such a great example of what a country should be doing.....

 

[PoliticalChic]

So our inner cities would have less murder if there were more guns there?

lol

1. No academic peer-reviewed paper has found that murder or other crime rates have gone up as a result of increases in concealed carry permits.


2. Lott point to the recent appeals court decision, which pointed out that Illinois tried to ban concealed carry permit by claiming that there was a bad effect of same. “SPRINGFIELD - In a huge win for gun-rights groups, a divided federal appeals court in Chicago Tuesday tossed the state's ban on carrying concealed weapons and gave Illinois' Legislature 180 days to craft a law legalizing concealed carry…."Illinois had to provide us with more than merely a rational basis for believing that its uniquely sweeping ban is justified by an increase in public safety. It has failed to meet this burden," Posner wrote.” Appeals court overturns Illinois concealed carry law in gun rights victoryVoices | Voices

a. Again: Illinois could not show that said permits would threaten public safety.



3. Permit holders are extremely law abiding. They would lose their permits for any weapons-related infraction. It doesn’t happen

a. Example: “Of the 51,078 permits that have been issued by the state since the law took effect in 2007, 44 permit holders have been charged with a crime while using a firearm through late October, according to records provided by the Kansas Attorney General’s Office.” Few crimes committed by concealed-carry permit holders in Kansas | Wichita Eagle ( .00086%)




Imagine how much smarter you'd be if you had used all that time learning instead of laughing.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since Norway receives high praise in the OP for its low murder rate, let's take a look at Norway's gun control policies:

Right to Possess Firearms

In Norway, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by law


Prohibited Firearms and Ammunition

In Norway, private possession of fully automatic weapons is permitted under licence

In Norway, private possession of semi-automatic assault weapons is permitted under licence

In Norway, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted under licence

In Norway, only licensed gun owners may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition

Genuine Reason Required for Firearm Licence

Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Norway are required to prove genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection, security

Age for Firearm Possession

The minimum age for gun ownership in Norway is 16 years with special consent, 18 or 21 years for particular firearms

Background Checks

An applicant for a firearm licence in Norway must pass background checks which consider criminal and mental records

In Norway, third party character references for each gun licence applicant are not required

Domestic Violence and Firearms

Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in Norway does not stipulate that a gun licence should be denied or revoked

Firearm Safety Training

In Norway, an understanding of firearm safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practical training course is required for a firearm licence

Limit on Number of Guns

Licensed firearm owners in Norway are permitted to possess any number of firearms

Limit on Quantity, Type of Ammunition

A licensed firearm owner in Norway is permitted to possess any quantity of ammunition

Civilian Gun Registration

In Norway, the law requires that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register

Gun Dealer Record Keeping

In Norway, licensed firearm dealers are not required to keep a record of each firearm or ammunition purchase, sale or transfer on behalf of a regulating authority

State-Owned Firearm Records

In Norway, State agencies are required to maintain records of the storage and movement of all firearms and ammunition under their control

Regulation of Private Gun Sales

In Norway, the private sale and transfer of firearms is prohibited.
well, thats' enough of that...

***********

Okay, since you want Norway's murder rate, you should want Norway's gun control.

Guns in Norway: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law