World's largest solar plant now online

[flacaltenn]

It takes a staggering five square miles and three hundred thousand 7 ft mirrors to power one hundred forty thousand homes on it's best day? WTF?

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. So "sustainable" part-time power takes 10% of the land required to energize a typical community? That's just very inefficient.

Compared to what? To provide as much energy as Ivanpah will in the next year would require 50 MILLION CUBIC METERS of natural gas which would have produced several TIMES that much volume of GHG emissions.

That's just very inefficient.

Tell me again where you're getting that number?? You're not using the 392 MW PEAK production for IvanPah are you? It does not power as many homes as they claim.. That's DECEPTIVE. It fits the green scam mold that Becki is talking about. Because the energy it ACTUALLY PRODUCES per year is 1/3 or less of the PEAK power output averaged over the year. We may never SEE production numbers from Ivanpah or any existing windfarm ever again.. Because --- it's not great news if they are not PUBLISHING them..

 

[Abraham3]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

 

[whitehall]

Did they do an environmental impact survey of the delicate desert terrain? I doubt it. How many endangered species were killed or uprooted? Do they care about the flying creatures that probably get sizzled by the contraptions? The EPA wants to fine a middle class guy $75,000 per day for digging a pond on his 8 acres in Ca. but 5 square miles of craziness to furnish energy to a miniscule part of the grid seems fine as long as they call it "green"..

 

[Abraham3]

I guarantee you environmental impact studies were done. I also guarantee you that Ivanpah will have less impact on the environment and its inhabitants than an equivalent fossil fuel plant would have had.

 

[mamooth]

Let me be concise and succinct: BULLSHIT

Read it and weep, bootlicker: Green Graveyard of Taxpayer Ripoffs

Cherrypicking falllacy, as any non-cultist instantly recognized.

But then, given the facts and science contradict you, dishonest cherrypicking fallacies are all you will ever be capable of. Sucks to be you, in that your political cult commands you to act stupid and just accept the mocking you get in return. Does the security-blanket feeling you get from your herd loyalty make up for all that humiliation?

 

[HenryBHough]

Let me be concise and succinct: BULLSHIT

Read it and weep, bootlicker: Green Graveyard of Taxpayer Ripoffs

Cherrypicking falllacy, as any non-cultist instantly recognized.

But then, given the facts and science contradict you, dishonest cherrypicking fallacies are all you will ever be capable of. Sucks to be you, in that your political cult commands you to act stupid and just accept the mocking you get in return. Does the security-blanket feeling you get from your herd loyalty make up for all that humiliation?

Cute but how does this excuse failure?

 

[mamooth]

I can't answer that for you. You'll have to find your own reasons to excuse your chronic failures.

 

[elektra]

So is it operating or not. There seems to be some contention on this thread that this site is not up. Problems have been encountered. Have you posted that yet?

The site is not operating. As far as the problems at Ivanpah, the owners have been silent,
Google is one of the owners, I imagine Google will not link to news stories about the problems.

Either way, this is the very last CSP of this type that will ever be built. It has proven itself to be a failure.

The cost is prohibitive, this one was built because Obama gave 1.6$ billion to the project.

Further, you must take public land, land that is suppose to be ours forever, and give it to the private corporations. not many Corporations have the cash to buy 17 square miles.

The cost to the environment is too great.

The amount of water is extreme, and that its in the desert, and california is in another drought season, which sometimes lasts as long as 7 years.

And with an unproven capacity factor of 31.7%, it will not provide a miniscule amount of electricity needed to simply pump water, which in California is 80% of our electrical usage (agriculture and industry use 90% of the water in California).

You've got an amazing penchant for posting falsehoods.

— All Three Units of 392 megawatt Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System Now Delivering Solar Power to California’s Electric Grid —

World?s Largest Solar Thermal Power Project at Ivanpah Achieves Commercial Operation

Solar thermal has not failed. The plant is doing precisely what it was built to do at precisely the predicted cost. No more solar thermal plants will get built for the foreseeable future because the cost of photovoltaic and natural gas have fallen. The dropping cost of PV has made the idea of distributed power generation far more feasible. We're all going to start putting PV panels on our roofs.

The government did not give 1.6 billion for the construction of the plant. They gave a loan guarantee on which they have not had to pay out one cent. They DID give Bright Source a tax credit because the plant is not nuclear and does not emit GHGs. This will total about $800 million over the next two years.

The land used by Ivanpah - in fact the public land available for use by wind and solar concerns (and these are rights of way vice leases since no mineral extraction is performed - the land could be restored to its original conditions simply by removing the installed equipment) - are less than 3% of the land available for lease for oil, coal, gas and mineral extraction. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40806.pdf

The amount of water used by Ivanpah is less than a nearby golf course uses to water two of its holes. Water is NOT used to cool the working fluid. The only water used at the plant is keeping the mirrors clean.

I don't like being called a liar missy. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. I want to know specifically what statements of mine you believe were lies and the evidence that makes you think so. And let me say up front that I don't call mistakes, lies; else I would have had more than a few additional comments for you along the way.

ps: if you don't like my absences, don't get involved with people who still work for a living.

You are either a complete idiot or a liar. You go to Brightsource, the company covering up the inoperation of Ivanpah? You post a press release? Which I already pointed out was false, in light of the dedication ceremony by Energy Secretary Moniz on the same exact day? On the 13th its dedicated and declared operational while Obamas man Moniz is there.

Energy Secretary Moniz Dedicates World?s Largest Concentrating Solar Power Project | Department of Energy

Energy Secretary Moniz Dedicates World’s Largest Concentrating Solar Power Project

February 13, 2014 - 5:00am
Share on emailShare on facebook
NEWS MEDIA CONTACT

(202) 586-4940
Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz will participate today in the opening of the Ivanpah Solar Energy Generating System, the world’s largest concentrating solar power (CSP) plant. As President Obama highlighted in his State of the Union address, the U.S. is becoming a global leader in solar energy -- demonstrated by a new industry report which found that U.S. utility-scale solar set a record

How do I know its not operational?

California ISO - Todays Outlook

Current Renewables: 2374.08 MW
Current Solar: 20.15 MW
Current Wind: 705.54 MW

20 mwh of total Solar, not just CSP, this includes photovoltaic.

Given Ivanpah is only capable of 105 mwh and this figure include all solar, what is going on?

Is Ivanpah Online? | CleanTechnica

Digging Deeper
How much power at this time? It is likely that only owner NRG, technology supplier Brightsource, construction contractor Bechtel, California ISO, and utilities buying the power know. Brightsource and NRG aren’t saying, and as they are holding a commissioning ceremony on February 13th, 2014, they are keeping silent in the interim

To further complicate matters, January ISO data shows practically no CSP output during nearly all days in January 2014, meaning that neither SEGS nor Ivanpah were what we would call operational.

Abraham is looking at a Press Release by the owner of Ivanpah for power output?

Elektra is looking at data put out by the California Grid Operators.

Which is more accurate, a press release from the owners (Google, Brightsource, NRG) the day the President sends the Energy Secretary to Ivanpah to dedicate it, or the Data from the grid operators?

Of course, I already posted this, in this thread, which Abraham ignores for three days, and then Abraham comes back and says I am a liar and posts a press release like this information is not in this thread already.

Is Ivanpah Online? | CleanTechnica

Operational or Non-operational?
California ISO does provide more clues to this mystery. The organization keeps a list of “curtailed and non-operational” power plants, and Ivanpah’s three units have been on this list for months. During four of the first five days of February, at least one unit was listed as fully curtailed or non-operational, and the other two partially curtailed.

The position of the three units have switched on this list. On February 2nd, it was unit 2 that was fully off-line, with the other two partially restricted; and on February 3rd, 4th, and 5th, unit 3 was fully off-line. On February 1st, all three units are listed as only partially “curtailed or non-operational.”

So in the end, we simply don’t know how much power is being produced by Ivanpah at this time. It is likely that as the units ramp up for full production, one or the other is being taken off-line for technical tweaking.

I’m willing to wager that construction contractor Bechtel and Brightsource are making one Hell of an effort to get everything up and running for next week, when Energy Secretary Ernie Moniz flies out from DC for the big unveiling. Around February 13th, 2014 we are likely to see a big jump in solar power output in California

 

[elektra]

Lovely Googlizing. Now why don't you Google how much natural gas would be required in a purely natural gas-fired power plant to produce Ivanpah's planned 392 MWatts and then look up how much natural gas Ivanpah uses to do so.

You know, you forgot to include the gasoline its employees burn getting to work and back.

ps: Looked up the first part. Generating 392 MW hrs with 58% efficiency will require 62,390 cubic meters of natural gas. For an 8,000 hour year that would be just shy of 50 million cubic meters of gas.

I have been unable to find out how much gas Ivanpah uses. Perhaps you can find it.

It's that massive climate science conspiracy again. OOOOooooh... they're EVIL, aren't they. Satan worshipping commies bent on destroying this nation because they HATE TRUTH and FREEDOM and RICH PETROLEUM EXECUTIVES.

It's that massive climate science conspiracy again. OOOOooooh... they're EVIL, aren't they. Satan worshipping commies bent on destroying this nation because they HATE TRUTH and FREEDOM and RICH PETROLEUM EXECUTIVES.

So, this is Abraham's response to all those posts that repeatedly corrected the bullshit and lies Abraham posted

Abraham's posts were all shown to be either of a person who knew nothing of what he spoke or Abraham was simply a parrot, a shill, a stooge, and this is your response?

Of course you must ignore all those posts that expose you as a fraud.

Take a good look folks, as the truth about Green Energy is told and learned by the public, the Leftist/Liberal/Democrat will become more radicalized.

Abraham, thank you for validating all the facts about Solar Power's Failure I posted by not defending your statements.

So... your idea of a successful debate - of one in which you've done well - is one in which your opponent doesn't show up. Quite the test. A real thorough demonstration of your profound knowledge. What amazing confidence and proficiency you've displayed here. Now I think I'll go have a look and see what the heck you're cackling about.

So is it operating or not. There seems to be some contention on this thread that this site is not up. Problems have been encountered. Have you posted that yet?

The site is not operating. As far as the problems at Ivanpah, the owners have been silent,
Google is one of the owners, I imagine Google will not link to news stories about the problems.

Either way, this is the very last CSP of this type that will ever be built. It has proven itself to be a failure.

The cost is prohibitive, this one was built because Obama gave 1.6$ billion to the project.

Further, you must take public land, land that is suppose to be ours forever, and give it to the private corporations. not many Corporations have the cash to buy 17 square miles.

The cost to the environment is too great.

The amount of water is extreme, and that its in the desert, and california is in another drought season, which sometimes lasts as long as 7 years.

And with an unproven capacity factor of 31.7%, it will not provide a miniscule amount of electricity needed to simply pump water, which in California is 80% of our electrical usage (agriculture and industry use 90% of the water in California).

You've got an amazing penchant for posting falsehoods.

I don't like being called a liar missy. Put up or shut up, as the saying goes. I want to know specifically what statements of mine you believe were lies and the evidence that makes you think so. And let me say up front that I don't call mistakes, lies; else I would have had more than a few additional comments for you along the way.

ps: if you don't like my absences, don't get involved with people who still work for a living.

You do not like being called a liar?

So be a man then, you drew first blood, you called my knowledge Googlizing

You can state whatever you please to me, in any manner, condescending, and when I respond back in kind, you cry you do not like to be called a liar?

Abraham made fun, was condescending, rather rude and insulting, and now Abraham whines? You do not like to be called a liar?

Abraham, go back and address the posts and quite ignorning them, and you will not be a liar, you saw them, you posted after them, completely ignoring them as if the truth does not exist.

Abraham, you ignore the truth, that makes you a liar.

Address the facts I posted and prove them wrong, if you can not do that admit you made a mistake, if Abraham will not do that, Abraham is a liar.

One more point as to how Abraham assumes and is wrong.

I am a man, not a missy, Elektra is a guy, Abraham can not even get me right yet Abraham knows Solar.

Seriously, you thought I was girl based on Elektra? Like Electricity, Elektrafy? Of course I do like Carmen Elektra, so, you need to get a grip because you do not know who Abraham even speaks to.

Put up or shut up? I put up, all my facts are posted, go read them, see, that is why you're a liar, you make this post as if the facts are not posted in this thread.

So address the facts in this thread, put up, admit your mistakes, or be called a liar and be known as a liar.

 

[Dot Com]

Let me be concise and succinct: BULLSHIT

Read it and weep, bootlicker: Green Graveyard of Taxpayer Ripoffs

Cherrypicking falllacy, as any non-cultist instantly recognized.

But then, given the facts and science contradict you, dishonest cherrypicking fallacies are all you will ever be capable of. Sucks to be you, in that your political cult commands you to act stupid and just accept the mocking you get in return. Does the security-blanket feeling you get from your herd loyalty make up for all that humiliation?

yeah becki Come on now. Lets stay above board, as it were, and keep hack-sourcing out of this thread

 

[westwall]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

To borrow a phrase from you, bullshit. It created a tremendous amount of GHG's to produce it all and it is so inefficient that it was built as a nat gas powerplant with solar thrown in.

Good luck with your claims, but they are BS.

 

[HenryBHough]

I can't answer that for you. You'll have to find your own reasons to excuse your chronic failures.

Weak.

But nice to see a Marxist doing the best they can with the little bit they are issued.

 

[Abraham3]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

To borrow a phrase from you, bullshit. It created a tremendous amount of GHG's to produce it all and it is so inefficient that it was built as a nat gas powerplant with solar thrown in.

Good luck with your claims, but they are BS.

It most certainly is (or should be) the end of the debate. Ivanpah was built to produce electricity with as little GHG emission as possible. It does just that. An exceptional amount of GHGs was NOT produced manufacturing the plant and what GHG's were produced, will very quickly be compensated by the plant's normal operation.

The natural gas fired boilers the plant includes are not there to compensate for any inefficiencies. The gas boilers do not come anywhere near the capacity of the solar side. So, every claim you just made was factually in error.

Ivanpah is doing what it was designed to do. End of debate.

 

[elektra]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

To borrow a phrase from you, bullshit. It created a tremendous amount of GHG's to produce it all and it is so inefficient that it was built as a nat gas powerplant with solar thrown in.

Good luck with your claims, but they are BS.

It most certainly is (or should be) the end of the debate. Ivanpah was built to produce electricity with as little GHG emission as possible. It does just that. An exceptional amount of GHGs was NOT produced manufacturing the plant and what GHG's were produced, will very quickly be compensated by the plant's normal operation.

The natural gas fired boilers the plant includes are not there to compensate for any inefficiencies. The gas boilers do not come anywhere near the capacity of the solar side. So, every claim you just made was factually in error.

Ivanpah is doing what it was designed to do. End of debate.

Really, first you say its working, when its not, and then you overstate how much electricity it makes, and at that you can not even use the correct measurement and, at that, you use like three or for different variations in your confusions, and now you stomp your feet and say the Natural gas portion will not produce as much energy as the non-working solar side.

Well, how about some posts with the technical data that led you to the conclusion or is this your imagination?

Abraham, thanks for validating another post by ignoring it!!!!

 

[elektra]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

Yep, End of Debate, because Abraham said so folks.

Thats it, we lost. No links, no technical analysis, not even a bit of commentary with any sort of technical reference.

Arrogance and Superiority, the Liberal/Leftist/Democrat.

 

[Abraham3]

IF you had data that indicated that Ivanpah was producing anything like as much GHG as would a fossil fuel-powered plant of the same capacity, you might have something to debate about. But you don't. So you don't.

Everything you folks have brought up here: the burnt birds, the tortoises you should have brought up but didn't till I mentioned them, the natural gas boilers, the decreasing cost of natural gas and photovoltaics... NONE of that has any bearing on whether or not Ivanpah is producing electricity with VASTLY less GHG emission than would a plant of the sort you'd apparently prefer.

We get that you (claim to) reject AGW and thus think every penny spent trying to reduce GHG emissions wasted. We get that you are frustrated that the world's scientists and the world's governments accept AGW and would like to spend money to reduce GHG emissions. We get that you are angry that those of us who give some credence to mainstream science think you're behaving in an ignorant manner. We get that in response you dearly wish to see anything we do to reduce emissions fail. We get all that.

Big whoop. Fighting reality is guaranteed to be a losing proposition. It's the end of the debate because there never was a debate. You walked into the hall with empty hands babe.

 

[elektra]

Does Ivanpah produce as much GHGs as a plant with equivalent capacity using any form of fossil fuel?

No?

End of debate.

Okay, Abraham wants to compare equivalents.

Ivanpah, worlds largest Solar/Natural gas power plant, produces 105 mwh.

Surgut-2, worlds largest Natural gas power plant, produces 5,000 mwh.

So, how do we compare equivalents?

Ivanpah, covers 10,000 acres of land.

Surgut-2 covers 30 acres of land

Ivanpah, does not work but may operate 8 hours a day

Surgut-2 operates 24 hours a day

Ivanpah will transmit power 100 miles losing 70% of Ivanpah's power in transmission

Surgut-2 is within 10 miles of its customer base thus losing only 7%

Ivanpah will thus provide 30 mwh, maybe

 

[Abraham3]

Are you stupid?

 

[elektra]

IF you had data that indicated that Ivanpah was producing anything like as much GHG as would a fossil fuel-powered plant of the same capacity, you might have something to debate about. But you don't. So you don't.

Everything you folks have brought up here: the burnt birds, the tortoises you should have brought up but didn't till I mentioned them, the natural gas boilers, the decreasing cost of natural gas and photovoltaics... NONE of that has any bearing on whether or not Ivanpah is producing electricity with VASTLY less GHG emission than would a plant of the sort you'd apparently prefer.

We get that you (claim to) reject AGW and thus think every penny spent trying to reduce GHG emissions wasted. We get that you are frustrated that the world's scientists and the world's governments accept AGW and would like to spend money to reduce GHG emissions. We get that you are angry that those of us who give some credence to mainstream science think you're behaving in an ignorant manner. We get that in response you dearly wish to see anything we do to reduce emissions fail. We get all that.

Big whoop. Fighting reality is guaranteed to be a losing proposition. It's the end of the debate because there never was a debate. You walked into the hall with empty hands babe.

Are you stupid?

Still ignoring all the posts, nice, Ivanpah is not operating. Are you that stupid. And again, I am a man, why are you calling a man, a Babe, are you that stupid?

Keep ignoring all the posts, and in response I will simply go back and repost all you ignore.
My hands are empty.

Abraham's brain is empty.

 

[Abraham3]

I call you a woman because Elektra was a woman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra

All three boilers at Ivanpah have been operating and putting energy into the grid since late 2013.