Without tariffs can the U.S afford to permanently help Ukraine, protect Taiwan?

[JoeB131]

Taiwan is a complicated issue.

There are literally Trillions of dollars worth of global investment money put into the place. (They used to make cheap plastic schlock)
With the computer and electronics growth the place makes 80% of the global supply of computer chips. Truly it is a place with people who are trained from childhood to make chips. (Dedicated and educated workforce)

But if CCP really wants Taiwan they will likely succeed in getting it.
Question is:"Will we be able to get our money out before that happens?"

CCP wants Taiwan's banks and cash. (They have a credit crisis with junk bonds) They also want to have a monopoly on a product in strong demand. The people? They could care less.

But it's American companies (and dollars) that built Taiwan. They once were truly starving in the 60's and 70's.

And CCP taking control is akin to theft. But I don't think we can stop them either.

Um, no. This is where you guys get it wrong on China all the time.

To understand the Chinese position on Taiwan, you have to understand the period between 1839 (The First Opium War) and the declaration of the People's Republic in 1949. What the Chinese call "The Century of Humiliation". (百年国耻 )

Taiwan is part of China. It has been since the Ming Dynasty. That it was under Japanese control for 50 years is part of that century of humiliation I was talking about earlier.

That Chiang Kai-shek, after losing China through sheer fucking incompetence, was a useful tool for us as we dumped billions into propping up Taiwan, is just a contiuation of that insult to China.

It's more the principle of the thing that the actual value.

Now, that said, the main reason I don't think China will invade Taiwan anytime soon is that, despite all the chest-thumping in Beijing and Taipei, they are actually economically dependent on each other.

 

[JohnDB]

Um, no. This is where you guys get it wrong on China all the time.

To understand the Chinese position on Taiwan, you have to understand the period between 1839 (The First Opium War) and the declaration of the People's Republic in 1949. What the Chinese call "The Century of Humiliation". (百年国耻 )

Taiwan is part of China. It has been since the Ming Dynasty. That it was under Japanese control for 50 years is part of that century of humiliation I was talking about earlier.

That Chiang Kai-shek, after losing China through sheer fucking incompetence, was a useful tool for us as we dumped billions into propping up Taiwan, is just a contiuation of that insult to China.

It's more the principle of the thing that the actual value.

Now, that said, the main reason I don't think China will invade Taiwan anytime soon is that, despite all the chest-thumping in Beijing and Taipei, they are actually economically dependent on each other.

Considering how often you are wrong did you ever think maybe YOU are just wrong? Especially when the WHOLE FREAKING WORLD disagrees with you?

Just a thought that you might want to consider this a clue.

 

[JoeB131]

Considering how often you are wrong did you ever think maybe YOU are just wrong? Especially when the WHOLE FREAKING WORLD disagrees with you?

Just a thought that you might want to consider this a clue.

The whole world? Really?

Look, man, just admit my point went over your head and you didn't have a cogent response. You'll feel better.

 

[rightwinger]

You are at war and you are going to become insolvent. You can't cut enough and you cannot tax your citizens enough. A tariff is a consumption tax on importers, that's it.

It is not a tax on importers…..it is passed on to consumers

You don’t create a trade war with the world. You invoke tariffs on targeted rivals and make trade alliances with the rest.

 

[rightwinger]

But if CCP really wants Taiwan they will likely succeed in getting it.
Question is:"Will we be able to get our money out before that happens?"

CCP wants Taiwan's banks and cash. (They have a credit crisis with junk bonds) They also want to have a monopoly on a product in strong demand. The people? They could care less.

If China invades Taiwan, they will lose

 

[shockedcanadian]

It is not a tax on importers…..it is passed on to consumers

You don’t create a trade war with the world. You invoke tariffs on targeted rivals and make trade alliances with the rest.

China employs slave labour, which in and of itself is illegal by Western nations.

Company A manufactures in China via this slave labour.

They import these very cheaply made goods into their country to compete with citizens who are not slaves and who have other standards which China does not meet.

Due to the immense profits of this slave labour Company A pays a tariff.

They can choose to accept smaller profits from this slave labour or pass it on to the sucker consumer who is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Is there a law that Company A must employ slave labour or that you as a consumer must buy that product built via slave labour?

A tax is a forced payment. A tariff is a choice made by that company.

 

[Care4all]

When Rs drastically lowered the Corporate income tax and said we consumers would benefit because we pay the tax incorporated in to the price of their products, so prices would adjust down for us if they got this HUMONGOUS tax cut...blah blah blah....we saw no reduction....

So now to recoup the less corporate taxes, Trump and Rs are shifting the taxes Corps got a huge break on, and adding tariffs to all of the consumer's purchases so we, the peons, make up for the corporate tax break.... Or this other tax break for mostly the wealthiest gets shifted to us peons with tariffs.

 

[JoeB131]

If China invades Taiwan, they will lose

What do you base that on?

China has a first-rate military and nearly limitless manpower.

The only problem logistically is that amphibious operations are always difficult.

 

[Dragonlady]

You simplify a situation that you clearly have not been curious enough to study and understand.

You are at war and you are going to become insolvent. You can't cut enough and you cannot tax your citizens enough. A tariff is a consumption tax on importers, that's it. You don't have to buy items Made in China. There is a reason the EU and China apply tariffs, it is to protect their workers and industries!

Let me give you an example of how naive Americans are, though it may not appear related I assure you it is as it establishes a pattern: do you trust the OPP or RCMP? How about Canadian employment practices if you open up an office in Canada?

Most American cops blindly would trust without a shred of knowledge of how these jurisdictions operate.

Naive, indeed.

I have no clue what this word salad is supposed to mean, other than your usual rants about Canada being a "police state". Tell me where do you come into contact with the RCMP, asshole??? You claim to live in Ontario, yet I can count on the fingers of one hand how many interactions I've had with members of the RCMP, in Ontario.

The number is ONCE. When I was working part time at the local race track as a cashier, back when I was in my early 20's, we had a member of the RCMP as part of the track security team, to confirm federal better laws were followed. Other than that, the RCMP really don't have a large presence in Ontario, BECAUSE we have the OPP.

And since the 1960's, the RCMP have stopped doing local policing under contract in Ontario, and reservations have contracted with the OPP for services, rather than the RCMP.

Every time you post about Canada, you reveal your ignorance about Canada and Canadians.

 

[JoeB131]

China employs slave labour, which in and of itself is illegal by Western nations.

Company A manufactures in China via this slave labour.

They import these very cheaply made goods into their country to compete with citizens who are not slaves and who have other standards which China does not meet.

Due to the immense profits of this slave labour Company A pays a tariff.

They can choose to accept smaller profits from this slave labour or pass it on to the sucker consumer who is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Is there a law that Company A must employ slave labour or that you as a consumer must buy that product built via slave labour?

A tax is a forced payment. A tariff is a choice made by that company.

Oh, Snidley, you are so full of shit.

First, most Chinese laborers are not "slaves", they are happy to have those jobs. Certainly better than working on a rice paddy in the countryside, being knee-deep in shit-water.

Second, we have 2 million people in prison, many of whom are involved in prison industries. Talk about your "Slave labor" because most of them are in for non-violent offenses or just being too poor to afford a good lawyer.

Third, resourcing a component is not as easy as you like to think it is. Most components are custom-made, and if you want to replace them, you must engineer them, obtain quality acceptance, test, verify, and then mass-produce them. It's not an easy thing to do if you want to keep supply chains going. Switching from a $0.50 Chinese part with a $0.50 tariff to a $ 1.00 US Part (if you can find it) is not going to be as easy as you like to think it is.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I have no clue what this word salad is supposed to mean, other than your usual rants about Canada being a "police state". Tell me where do you come into contact with the RCMP, asshole??? You claim to live in Ontario, yet I can count on the fingers of one hand how many interactions I've had with members of the RCMP, in Ontario.

The number is ONCE. When I was working part time at the local race track as a cashier, back when I was in my early 20's, we had a member of the RCMP as part of the track security team, to confirm federal better laws were followed. Other than that, the RCMP really don't have a large presence in Ontario, BECAUSE we have the OPP.

And since the 1960's, the RCMP have stopped doing local policing under contract in Ontario, and reservations have contracted with the OPP for services, rather than the RCMP.

Every time you post about Canada, you reveal your ignorance about Canada and Canadians.

 

[Mac1958]

You simplify a situation that you clearly have not been curious enough to study and understand.

You are at war and you are going to become insolvent. You can't cut enough and you cannot tax your citizens enough. A tariff is a consumption tax on importers, that's it. You don't have to buy items Made in China. There is a reason the EU and China apply tariffs, it is to protect their workers and industries!

Let me give you an example of how naive Americans are, though it may not appear related I assure you it is as it establishes a pattern: do you trust the OPP or RCMP? How about Canadian employment practices if you open up an office in Canada?

Most American cops blindly would trust without a shred of knowledge of how these jurisdictions operate.

Naive, indeed.

You're still defending tariffs.

You have no understanding of the point I made in post 2. None.

And I'm not surprised.

 

[shockedcanadian]

When Rs drastically lowered the Corporate income tax and said we consumers would benefit because we pay the tax incorporated in to the price of their products, so prices would adjust down for us if they got this HUMONGOUS tax cut...blah blah blah....we saw no reduction....

So now to recoup the less corporate taxes, Trump and Rs are shifting the taxes Corps got a huge break on, and adding tariffs to all of the consumer's purchases so we, the peons, make up for the corporate tax break.... Or this other tax break for mostly the wealthiest gets shifted to us peons with tariffs.

This is similar to the outsourcing of cars and high tech.

How much are you paying for a car made in Mexico? Same damn price you paid if it was manufactured in America.

How about iphones made in China? I wouldn't give Apple $50 for one of their creepy phones, yet, Americans spend hundreds for one. Why?

We are far too informed now to just get in line and support outsourcing to nations that hate the West.

 

[the watcher]

Rubio is a twat who doesn't understand why his fellow Cubans threw his parents out on their asses.

Oh, Snidley, you are so full of shit.

You are so elegant when describing others, I would like to know how you would characterize yourself? Just curious.

 

[JoeB131]

This is similar to the outsourcing of cars and high tech.

How much are you paying for a car made in Mexico? Same damn price you paid if it was manufactured in America.

How about iphones made in China? I wouldn't give Apple $50 for one of their creepy phones, yet, Americans spend hundreds for one. Why?

We are far too informed now to just get in line and support outsourcing to nations that hate the West.

The problem is the phones aren't where the telecommunications company make their money. It's why so many companies offer free phones or discounted ones.

The money is made in providing the monthly services, not in the cost of the phone.

 

[JohnDB]

The whole world? Really?

Look, man, just admit my point went over your head and you didn't have a cogent response. You'll feel better.

No....not over my head. I and the whole world think you are full of stuff best left for a cesspool.

Taiwan is the island of exiles who believe in radical ideologies of free market capitalism and Christianity. That's the part you completely dismiss. Taiwan is, according to CCP, a prison island....exiled from the "luxury" of living in a communist society.

It has zero to do with honor or shame or anything else you claim.

Now the communists wish to steal the wealth of Taiwan because their corrupt governance has bankrupted the nation...that's the crux of the matter. Yes Taiwan relies upon CCP for minerals like silicon. (CCP is excellent at mining...although some methods are not exactly kind to the working people or land).

CCP has also engaged in slavery, prison labor, and a lot of other practices which essentially enslaves their people. Taiwan does none of this but has become a very wealthy nation. (Christian principles).

Hong Kong was once a British territory (given back) But it's people were indifferent to British rule or communist rule. Looking at the UK today and there is little wonder as to the reason for the indifference. But essentially when CCP took control of the banking it raped EVERY BANK of its cash to prop up their junk bond crisis....but it was nowhere near enough.

Which is why CCP is desperate for Taiwan. But the Taiwanese are staunchly opposed to the confiscation and communist rule. They would rather destroy every penny of infrastructure and industry than let CCP have any benefit. "Scortched Earth" is their military doctrine. Meaning if they cannot fend off a CCP invasion (with assistance).then they will refuse to exist anymore. The whole thing is rigged to blow up. Hence "scorched earth".

They totally believe "Live free or die".

 

[rightwinger]

What do you base that on?

China has a first-rate military and nearly limitless manpower.

The only problem logistically is that amphibious operations are always difficult.

China has an Army of 2 million and a powerful Navy
Taiwan has an Army of 200,000 and a tiny Navy
It is obvious that China will win easily

But Taiwan is an Island a hundred miles away. China cannot land 2 million troops at once. Maybe 10,000 at a time who will face 200,000 troops, tanks, artillery
The Navy will face Subs, anti ship missiles, mines, drones, air attacks……

China has never fought a modern war and never launched an amphibious invasion

 

[the watcher]

Look, man, just admit my point went over your head and you didn't have a cogent response. You'll feel better.

When you're hot you're hot.

 

[Dragonlady]

They want so desperately to believe him that they ignore this CONSTANT STREAM of red flags and damage caused.

I will always be fascinated by the psychology/sociology of this. They want to finally be "winners" and they've decided that he is a "winner". And they refuse to care about, or honestly examine, how he got there.

Optimizing tariffs is always a good idea. But you don't do it like Yosemite Sam. We're dealing with INTELLIGENT ADULTS here.

The identify with him because subconsciously, they know he's a loser, like them. And if a loser like Trump can become the most powerful man in the world, there's hope for them.

China employs slave labour, which in and of itself is illegal by Western nations.

Company A manufactures in China via this slave labour.

They import these very cheaply made goods into their country to compete with citizens who are not slaves and who have other standards which China does not meet.

Due to the immense profits of this slave labour Company A pays a tariff.

They can choose to accept smaller profits from this slave labour or pass it on to the sucker consumer who is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Is there a law that Company A must employ slave labour or that you as a consumer must buy that product built via slave labour?

A tax is a forced payment. A tariff is a choice made by that company.

Your understanding of international trade and how it works is about as reliable as your posts on life in the "police state" of Canada.

China isn't using slave labour in any appreciable numbers because they have a population of over 300 million people - all of whom need jobs and incomes in order to survive. Those people get first crack at the jobs because without a steady source of income and food, it's impossible to subdue a population - even in a dictatorship.

Global consensus is that there are approximately 4.5 million slaves in China, out of a total work force of more than 734. million people. So for you to suggest that ALL Chinese goods are being produced by slave labour indicates your complete ignorance on the topic.

https://cdn.walkfree.org/content/uploads/2023/09/27162417/GSI-Snapshot-China.pdf

As someone who actually worked for international trade lawyers when communism fell I KNOW that everything that gets imported, has to pass federal inspections and/or regulations BEFORE it can enter the country, because it was my job to get the samples and submit them to the government before the ship left the port.

 

[Dragonlady]

View attachment 1116997

So you have nothing but your usual lies and bullshit. Trump only screams "Fake News" when he's been flat out caught lying. Thanks for your confession.