Why Haven't Obama's Policies Helped The Economy?

[Foxfyre]

No worries.
I would even contest that America has more service business than any other single category of small business nowadays but I'm not sure. I'll bet it's close though.

As far as your opinions, there are SO many people here whose every opinion can be found, simply by turning on Glenn Beck or Rush, it's hard to tell. When someone says everything about this bill is bad or ineffectual or exactly the same as the other ones, it certainly smells of the "Rushies".
You know the type: Bush wars good. Obama bad. Bush tax cuts good, Obama bad. Bush gets credit for Iraq Victory, Obama gets no credit for OBL... and so on.
Mindless drones who couldn't come up with an original opinion if their life depended on it.

My apologies for just assuming you fell in that category, based only on your views regarding a single subject. You're right. I should not let the other Internet People influence me that way.

And in all due repect, you are jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions to assume that those of us who don't agree with you are simply parroting Limbaugh, Beck et al. For those of us who haven't listened to either Limbaugh or Beck in months, if we do agree with Limbaugh and Beck, who is copying who? Or maybe it is that we all have the same information, apply our own individual reason and intuition to analyze it, and all arrive at more or less the same conclusion?

Do you get all your information from Huff post or Daily Kos or Salon.com which would explain your point of view as reflecting theirs almost right down the line? Or do you get as much information as you can about a subject and form your own opinions about what it means?

If everybody in a room adds 2 and 2 and gets 4, it does not necessarily mean any have copied off each other or been taught or influenced by the same instructor. It merely means that all in the room were able to work the problem and arrive at the correct answer.

There IS a best answer for almost every question.

Regarding the part in bold. Hmmm. Let's look at that and see if there's a difference between me (and other Independents) and Right (or Left!) wing parrots.

Does Huff / Kos state emphatically and often that:

Obama is a poor president and ineffectual leader? Look around at my posts. I do.
ObamaCare sucks and is the worst piece of legislation passed in decades? I do.
Pelosi is a screech hag and hypocrite / Reid is a crook? I do.
Labor unions are as often the cause of jobs being shipped overseas as executives? I do.
Christians are discriminated against?
The time for Affirmative Action is over?
We should eliminate over a dozen fed agencies and put those responsibilities solely in control of the states?

I could go on but I think you get the idea. Your assertation that I "get all your (my) information from Huff post or Daily Kos or Salon.com which would explain your point of view as reflecting theirs almost right down the line?" is pretty much blown out of the water. That would be the Independent part...

As far as
"There IS a best answer for almost every question.",
As a man much wiser than me wrote:

"Only a fool believes that one party or political ideology is right all the time."

You really think that all those people, coming to the exact same conclusion on every virtually issue, had nothing to do with Right or Left Wing media targeting their thoughts for influence. Yeah. Okay. If you say so.
Sure. And everything is still Bush's fault...

And it is also wisdom that is able to discern example from accusation. And understand that a question mark is different from a period. I specifically chose Huffpost, Daily Kos, and Salon.com because all do at times express opinions that do agree with those points you have enumerated. And they also express opinion in opposition to all those points. There is a general mindset between the three however: left is good; right is bad if not downright evil. And. . .conservatives would never arrive at the conclusions or opinions they hold if they were not guided by the right wing media.

Not to mention that neither the left wing media nor you recognize, notice, or acknowledge that NONE of the rightwing media agree with each other on every single point or issue, nor do those of us who consider ourselves right of center but are not in the media agree with the rightwing media on every point or with each other on every point.

You do not hold a monopoly on independent thought.

Your dichotomy is false because 'all those people' don't come to the "exact same conclusion" by taking the same path to get there. But when we are pretty well unified on a conclusion, the large majority of us have a reason for defending it and can defend it with more than sound bites and can articulate a rationale that supports a principle rather than just trashing an opposition.

It has been my observation that most, not all but most, of those on the left cannot do that. They will accuse those on the right of all sorts of 'ignorance' or 'sins' or 'evil' or whatever, but they cannot articulate a rationale for WHY they see those on the right as wrong.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Actually, many small businesses operate exactly that way. I own a recruiting firm. If I get a lot of contracts all at once, I'll probably hire someone regardless of whether taxes are a few points higher or lower. If I get a few contracts that could increase revenues by say, $500K, I may or may not.
But with all the incentives that Obama is talking about, I'll definitely hire at least one and maybe two. Now while they're working on the contracts I've gotten, their job is to try to get more business. Like most professional services, making rain is an expectation for long term employment. I have friends in the legal, accounting and other professions who operate the same way. But I suppose you would rather have people just not working at all for the year?
And um, wasn't it the GOP mantra that if we just lowered taxes and companies showed a profit, roses would bloom and unicorns would reduce unemployment to 0%? Now suddenly they're fighting against lowering taxes. What a bunch of hypocrites.

Small business DO NOT operate that way. Small business owners look for good, long term, employees they can depend on. At least thats how the 2 my family members own, the shops i've dealt with, and my own boss' mentality is whom all own small businesses with less than 10 employees per location.

Really? None do? Zero? You know this about all of the millions of small businesses in America? Wow! You're busy!
Of course I look for good long-term employees but part of what makes them good, is the ability to generate business on their own. That applies to most professional services business.
So your friend of a friend of a family member or whatever owns two small businesses. That's nice. Are they professional services businesses? And they don't expect any rain-making?
Is it possible your blanket statement might not apply to ALL small businesses or is that this "muct be true!" because Neil Cavuto said so?

So again, Bush temporary tax cuts good, Obama's bad - before they're even ironed out. Hmmm. Opinions fed to you by FOX? Naaahhhhh couldn't be.

The Bush temporary tax cuts were bad. They wasted a bunch of money and were ineffective.
Just like the Obama temporary tax cuts.
You'd think the libs would have learned from Bush's mistake.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The economy has been going down because it is structually designed to go down.

Until we change the things that have been causing this economy to stagnate, reducing taxes, or even more spending is going to not help much.

The first thing we must do is ask ourselves WHY so many American are out of work and unable to find a job.

Ponder that while sitting in front of your computer that are not made in the USA.

No disagreements with you here for once ED

 

[IndependntLogic]

"Only a fool believes that one party or political ideology is right all the time."

You really think that all those people, coming to the exact same conclusion on every virtually issue, had nothing to do with Right or Left Wing media targeting their thoughts for influence. Yeah. Okay. If you say so.
Sure. And everything is still Bush's fault...

And it is also wisdom that is able to discern example from accusation. And understand that a question mark is different from a period. I specifically chose Huffpost, Daily Kos, and Salon.com because all do at times express opinions that do agree with those points you have enumerated. And they also express opinion in opposition to all those points. There is a general mindset between the three however: left is good; right is bad if not downright evil.

And guess what? There is a very similar general mindset from the right. It goes like this: Right is good; left is bad if not downright evil. Oh, and anyone not agreeing with the Right on every issue, 100% of the time is a Liberal.

And. . .conservatives would never arrive at the conclusions or opinions they hold if they were not guided by the right wing media.

Gee, never heard that one about The Left Wing media and Liberals! Both are guided and heavily influenced in their decision making by the sources they choose from which to gather their information. Someone who only watches MSNBC, listens to NPR, Reads DailyKos or whatever; is pretty likely to come to different conclusions than someone who watches, listens and reads their counterparts. Not a whole lot of people spend a significant time watching BOTH MSNBC and FOX.

Not to mention that neither the left wing media nor you recognize, notice, or acknowledge that NONE of the rightwing media agree with each other on every single point or issue, nor do those of us who consider ourselves right of center but are not in the media agree with the rightwing media on every point or with each other on every point.

No but overall, The Right & Left all just agree with each other on virtually every issues as presented by their choice of media. Which of these would you say you (invite to other Conservs here, as well) disagree with:
1. Less Fed govt / More state control
2. Less taxes - and no increases on the rich
3. Gun control laws won't stop gun crime
4. ObamaCare sucks
5. Obama is a terrible president
6. The deficit should be cut by cutting / ending a lot of social programs
7. Unions hurt American business
8. The Jobs Act is bad and should be fought
9. Obama has not worked with Republicans
10. NPR should not receive govt funding.

Those are just the first 10 that popped into my mind. Wanna bet most FOX / MSNBC viewers have the exact same views on every one of those issues?

You do not hold a monopoly on independent thought.

Never said I do! I like your posts btw. At least you make intelligent arguments instead of instantly going to the "You're a secret agent liberal!" thing

Your dichotomy is false because 'all those people' don't come to the "exact same conclusion" by taking the same path to get there. But when we are pretty well unified on a conclusion, the large majority of us have a reason for defending it and can defend it with more than sound bites and can articulate a rationale that supports a principle rather than just trashing an opposition.

I see that from you, James Cessna, Plymco Pilgrim and a few others. On the other hand, most people here, right or left, couldn't come up with more than a soundbite or bumper sticker to save their ass. See my Sig for a classic example.

It has been my observation that most, not all but most, of those on the left cannot do that. They will accuse those on the right of all sorts of 'ignorance' or 'sins' or 'evil' or whatever, but they cannot articulate a rationale for WHY they see those on the right as wrong.

Yeah gee. Tough to figure out if THAT goes both ways. Actually, I would say the Right is guilty of that a bit more often than the Left. Examples.
Unions: I argued with a couple Libs who were getting pretty peeved with me over unions. I talked excessive wages. They talked fair wages. They talked safety. I talked OSHA etc... already here. Back and forth. Some minor name calling but almost always some link, fact, whatever to back their claims.
Global Warming: I talked the Earth has done this before. They provided charts and sh1t. I talked about the volcano in Iceland (that one eruption, was equivalent to all the cars in S. America for a year). They showed links that every scientific body int he world agrees with them. And so on.
Do the Rich Pay Less in Taxes?: I said their rates are the same but they pay less because of tools in code, only they have the $$$ to use. Conservs called me a Liberal and an idiot - then said the rates are the same - which I had already stated. I explained about deferred comp, legal structures etc... and then said it's unfair to tax the rich more, just because they're rich. CrusaderFrank, Oddballs and the rest of Wonderful Whackjob Club said I'm a Marxist, a Liberal and an idiot because..... it's unfair to tax the rich more just because they're rich.

So I dunno. Maybe the Left is quicker to insult the Right. I know they are when it comes to my faith. Just love being told I'm a self-deluded idiot who doesn't believe in evolution and that the Earth is 5000 years old.
But the Right is definitely quicker to insult ANYONE who isn't in complete agreement with them on everything.
And btw, my first post on THIS thread, said that Obama is a bad president, ineffectual leader and his domestic agenda sucks. But I didn't agree with the Right on EVERYTHING. Guess what happened next?

 

[Foxfyre]

And it is also wisdom that is able to discern example from accusation. And understand that a question mark is different from a period. I specifically chose Huffpost, Daily Kos, and Salon.com because all do at times express opinions that do agree with those points you have enumerated. And they also express opinion in opposition to all those points. There is a general mindset between the three however: left is good; right is bad if not downright evil.

And guess what? There is a very similar general mindset from the right. It goes like this: Right is good; left is bad if not downright evil. Oh, and anyone not agreeing with the Right on every issue, 100% of the time is a Liberal.

And. . .conservatives would never arrive at the conclusions or opinions they hold if they were not guided by the right wing media.

Gee, never heard that one about The Left Wing media and Liberals! Both are guided and heavily influenced in their decision making by the sources they choose from which to gather their information. Someone who only watches MSNBC, listens to NPR, Reads DailyKos or whatever; is pretty likely to come to different conclusions than someone who watches, listens and reads their counterparts. Not a whole lot of people spend a significant time watching BOTH MSNBC and FOX.

Not to mention that neither the left wing media nor you recognize, notice, or acknowledge that NONE of the rightwing media agree with each other on every single point or issue, nor do those of us who consider ourselves right of center but are not in the media agree with the rightwing media on every point or with each other on every point.

No but overall, The Right & Left all just agree with each other on virtually every issues as presented by their choice of media. Which of these would you say you (invite to other Conservs here, as well) disagree with:
1. Less Fed govt / More state control
2. Less taxes - and no increases on the rich
3. Gun control laws won't stop gun crime
4. ObamaCare sucks
5. Obama is a terrible president
6. The deficit should be cut by cutting / ending a lot of social programs
7. Unions hurt American business
8. The Jobs Act is bad and should be fought
9. Obama has not worked with Republicans
10. NPR should not receive govt funding.

Those are just the first 10 that popped into my mind. Wanna bet most FOX / MSNBC viewers have the exact same views on every one of those issues?

You do not hold a monopoly on independent thought.

Never said I do! I like your posts btw. At least you make intelligent arguments instead of instantly going to the "You're a secret agent liberal!" thing

Your dichotomy is false because 'all those people' don't come to the "exact same conclusion" by taking the same path to get there. But when we are pretty well unified on a conclusion, the large majority of us have a reason for defending it and can defend it with more than sound bites and can articulate a rationale that supports a principle rather than just trashing an opposition.

I see that from you, James Cessna, Plymco Pilgrim and a few others. On the other hand, most people here, right or left, couldn't come up with more than a soundbite or bumper sticker to save their ass. See my Sig for a classic example.

It has been my observation that most, not all but most, of those on the left cannot do that. They will accuse those on the right of all sorts of 'ignorance' or 'sins' or 'evil' or whatever, but they cannot articulate a rationale for WHY they see those on the right as wrong.

Yeah gee. Tough to figure out if THAT goes both ways. Actually, I would say the Right is guilty of that a bit more often than the Left. Examples.
Unions: I argued with a couple Libs who were getting pretty peeved with me over unions. I talked excessive wages. They talked fair wages. They talked safety. I talked OSHA etc... already here. Back and forth. Some minor name calling but almost always some link, fact, whatever to back their claims.
Global Warming: I talked the Earth has done this before. They provided charts and sh1t. I talked about the volcano in Iceland (that one eruption, was equivalent to all the cars in S. America for a year). They showed links that every scientific body int he world agrees with them. And so on.
Do the Rich Pay Less in Taxes?: I said their rates are the same but they pay less because of tools in code, only they have the $$$ to use. Conservs called me a Liberal and an idiot - then said the rates are the same - which I had already stated. I explained about deferred comp, legal structures etc... and then said it's unfair to tax the rich more, just because they're rich. CrusaderFrank, Oddballs and the rest of Wonderful Whackjob Club said I'm a Marxist, a Liberal and an idiot because..... it's unfair to tax the rich more just because they're rich.

So I dunno. Maybe the Left is quicker to insult the Right. I know they are when it comes to my faith. Just love being told I'm a self-deluded idiot who doesn't believe in evolution and that the Earth is 5000 years old.
But the Right is definitely quicker to insult ANYONE who isn't in complete agreement with them on everything.
And btw, my first post on THIS thread, said that Obama is a bad president, ineffectual leader and his domestic agenda sucks. But I didn't agree with the Right on EVERYTHING. Guess what happened next?

Please be careful how you nest the quotes. You attributed my words to you and your words to me. When that isn't corrected immediately, others can pick up the wrong quote and it's hard as hell to convince a numbnut that you didn't say it.

I don't know that the right is any quicker to insult than the left. It seems to me the right is more likely to dispute--okay even insult--a 'wrong' concept but less likely to attack the messenger. That may not necessarily be true on USMB though. We do have a lot of folks on both sides who seem to like to call others by all manner of unflattering adjectives.

So while I no doubt disagree with you on a number of things, we are in complete agreement that Obama is a bad president ineffectual leader, and his domestic agenda sucks. So which of the rightwing media did we both listen to to come to that same conclusion? Or is it possible that we both took very different paths and used very different criteria to arrive at that perception?

Do you honestly believe that we on the right are all in complete agreement on anything? Birthers? Truthers? AGW skeptics and proponents? We are all probably in agreement that the federal government is too big and too expensive, but I am damn sure we all aren't in agreement on how to fix that or to what degree it needs to be scaled back. Among our ranks, after all, are the Ron Paul admirers and those who vote for Olympia Snowe. Some of us are deeply religious and look at the First Amendment very differently than do those of us who are areligious or professed Atheists. Even among the religious are many different points of view.

You see how silly it is to suggest that nobody on the right is an independent thinker? Or that we all march in lockstep to some rightwing media guru?

 

[IndependntLogic]

Yeah gee. Tough to figure out if THAT goes both ways. Actually, I would say the Right is guilty of that a bit more often than the Left. Examples.
Unions: I argued with a couple Libs who were getting pretty peeved with me over unions. I talked excessive wages. They talked fair wages. They talked safety. I talked OSHA etc... already here. Back and forth. Some minor name calling but almost always some link, fact, whatever to back their claims.
Global Warming: I talked the Earth has done this before. They provided charts and sh1t. I talked about the volcano in Iceland (that one eruption, was equivalent to all the cars in S. America for a year). They showed links that every scientific body int he world agrees with them. And so on.
Do the Rich Pay Less in Taxes?: I said their rates are the same but they pay less because of tools in code, only they have the $$$ to use. Conservs called me a Liberal and an idiot - then said the rates are the same - which I had already stated. I explained about deferred comp, legal structures etc... and then said it's unfair to tax the rich more, just because they're rich. CrusaderFrank, Oddballs and the rest of Wonderful Whackjob Club said I'm a Marxist, a Liberal and an idiot because..... it's unfair to tax the rich more just because they're rich.

So I dunno. Maybe the Left is quicker to insult the Right. I know they are when it comes to my faith. Just love being told I'm a self-deluded idiot who doesn't believe in evolution and that the Earth is 5000 years old.
But the Right is definitely quicker to insult ANYONE who isn't in complete agreement with them on everything.
And btw, my first post on THIS thread, said that Obama is a bad president, ineffectual leader and his domestic agenda sucks. But I didn't agree with the Right on EVERYTHING. Guess what happened next?

Please be careful how you nest the quotes. You attributed my words to you and your words to me. When that isn't corrected immediately, others can pick up the wrong quote and it's hard as hell to convince a numbnut that you didn't say it.

Oops! Sorry!

I don't know that the right is any quicker to insult than the left. It seems to me the right is more likely to dispute--okay even insult--a 'wrong' concept but less likely to attack the messenger. That may not necessarily be true on USMB though. We do have a lot of folks on both sides who seem to like to call others by all manner of unflattering adjectives.

Okay. I agree with you there - but I still maintain the the Right is quicker to insult those who are NOT on the Left but also not completely on The Right either. Basically, if you don't agree with them on everything, you're some kind of 007 secret agent Liberal - which is actually cool because I look EXACTLY like Sean Connery (j/k) One example of this kind of whackjobbery is in my signature.

So while I no doubt disagree with you on a number of things, we are in complete agreement that Obama is a bad president ineffectual leader, and his domestic agenda sucks. So which of the rightwing media did we both listen to to come to that same conclusion? Or is it possible that we both took very different paths and used very different criteria to arrive at that perception?

Do you honestly believe that we on the right are all in complete agreement on anything? Birthers? Truthers? AGW skeptics and proponents? We are all probably in agreement that the federal government is too big and too expensive, but I am damn sure we all aren't in agreement on how to fix that or to what degree it needs to be scaled back. Among our ranks, after all, are the Ron Paul admirers and those who vote for Olympia Snowe. Some of us are deeply religious and look at the First Amendment very differently than do those of us who are areligious or professed Atheists. Even among the religious are many different points of view.

You see how silly it is to suggest that nobody on the right is an independent thinker? Or that we all march in lockstep to some rightwing media guru?

Never meant to say that nobody is and if came across that way, I retract it. I thought I actually pointed out that there are several people here who are fairly reasonable and then there are the rest - Left or Right, whose every single opinion you can predict accurately from on thread one one topic. But then again, those are Internet People. None of my friends irl, whether Lib or Conserv are anywhere near as whackjobby as Internet People.

 

[Foxfyre]

Please be careful how you nest the quotes. You attributed my words to you and your words to me. When that isn't corrected immediately, others can pick up the wrong quote and it's hard as hell to convince a numbnut that you didn't say it.

Oops! Sorry!

I don't know that the right is any quicker to insult than the left. It seems to me the right is more likely to dispute--okay even insult--a 'wrong' concept but less likely to attack the messenger. That may not necessarily be true on USMB though. We do have a lot of folks on both sides who seem to like to call others by all manner of unflattering adjectives.

Okay. I agree with you there - but I still maintain the the Right is quicker to insult those who are NOT on the Left but also not completely on The Right either. Basically, if you don't agree with them on everything, you're some kind of 007 secret agent Liberal - which is actually cool because I look EXACTLY like Sean Connery (j/k) One example of this kind of whackjobbery is in my signature.

So while I no doubt disagree with you on a number of things, we are in complete agreement that Obama is a bad president ineffectual leader, and his domestic agenda sucks. So which of the rightwing media did we both listen to to come to that same conclusion? Or is it possible that we both took very different paths and used very different criteria to arrive at that perception?

Do you honestly believe that we on the right are all in complete agreement on anything? Birthers? Truthers? AGW skeptics and proponents? We are all probably in agreement that the federal government is too big and too expensive, but I am damn sure we all aren't in agreement on how to fix that or to what degree it needs to be scaled back. Among our ranks, after all, are the Ron Paul admirers and those who vote for Olympia Snowe. Some of us are deeply religious and look at the First Amendment very differently than do those of us who are areligious or professed Atheists. Even among the religious are many different points of view.

You see how silly it is to suggest that nobody on the right is an independent thinker? Or that we all march in lockstep to some rightwing media guru?

Never meant to say that nobody is and if came across that way, I retract it. I thought I actually pointed out that there are several people here who are fairly reasonable and then there are the rest - Left or Right, whose every single opinion you can predict accurately from on thread one one topic. But then again, those are Internet People. None of my friends irl, whether Lib or Conserv are anywhere near as whackjobby as Internet People.

I appreciate that, and thanks. And oh Lordy, you're lucky. My family is multi-ethnic and about as religiously and politically diverse as you can get. We have those who grovel at the feet of Obama and won't tolerate the slightest jab in fun at him much less real criticism. And we have some who think George W. Bush was the greatest President who ever lived. Needless to say, we avoid politics at family gatherings.

And partly because of the nature of my vocations and avocations, my professional colleagues are just as diverse. But I do agree that the internet does attract more than its fair share of idiots, trolls, and exercises in futility.

 

[Wiseacre]

At the end of the day it is govt's job to create an environment that is conducive to economic growth and job creation without sacrificing the checks and balances required to make sure the consumer and other businesses are not defrauded. And also that competition is promoted and discrimination is denied.

So you look around and decide for yourself, how well has Obama done in this regard? Sure he inherited a big mess, but what has he done to fix things? How well has his policies worked? IMHO, not very well, all that increase in spending has not paid off in more jobs and higher wages. And instead of switching gears as Clinton did, he wants to double down to appease his base.