Why Don’t Battered Women Get Guns?

[Stryder50]

Ladies Of Lead Group Therapy, LLC ® We’ve trained thousands of women over the past decade here in Oregon! We have educational-based firearms sales and programs for firearm safety and personal protection for women. Most of our clients are first-time shooters with no prior experience with handguns. Still, other clients may have taken the basic handwritten or online course and received their Concealed Handgun License yet they do not know how to shoot a handgun or have any information on fundamentals, ammunition, misfires, jams, and more importantly, how to protect innocent bystanders, including family members, from a stray bullet from their own gun. They could easily become part of the problem if they choose to draw their firearm. Our courses are structured to help you gain valuable skills and a mindset, that one day may save your life or the life of a loved one. Since we realize the "learning curve" for beginners is challenging, we have built our courses in such a way as to address this. Fear is always based on the lack of knowledge. Join us! Where knowledge replaces fear and empowerment creates options. We are here to serve our community.
What you learn:

• Basic fundamentals of firearm safety
• Ammunition: Firing sequence, bullet styles, and terminal/ballistic performance
• Grip, stance, aiming, recoil management, and follow through
• Federal and State Laws
• The Use Of Deadly Force: Its implications and aftermath
• Conceal carry options
• Gun range rules and regulations
• Criminal Psychology
• Mindset/Skillset

Within the Handgun 101 Course, you will have the opportunity to learn all about revolvers, semi-automatics and the different loads of cartridges for each. In your classroom instruction we will teach you all about the different ammunition available for you personal carry needs and situations. You will be able to handle unloaded handguns in several calibers. The .22, .38, 9mm and the 45ACP. We will teach body position, bench rest position, two-handed grip, sight alignment, sight picture, arc of movement, breath control, trigger control, follow-through and recoil management.

In your Range portion on the firing line you will start with intensive one on one instruction with live ammunition. You will then shoot from a distance of 15 feet. You'll shoot several calibers of handguns both revolvers and semi-automatics .22, .38, 9mm and the .45ACP.

Ladies of Lead — About Us — Ladies Of Lead Group Therapy, LLC

Ladies of Lead is women training women in handgun safety and defense. Concealed Handgun License classes offered. Beginners welcome. Educational programs taught by certified National Rifle Association Instructors. NRA. Located in Oregon.

www.ladiesoflead.com

 

[Stryder50]

^^^^^^^
Hopefully not just an "out West" sort of thawng.

 

[sealybobo]

Spousal or child abuse accusations are almost universal in divorces.

Sorry but there's too much evidence for you to explain it all away. After awhile we go "hey, this guy's got an answer for everything but he's so full of shit"

That's you.

 

[Captain Caveman]

Access to a gun in domestic violence situations makes it 5 times more likely (link 1) that the woman will die. And a California study found that women who purchased a gun were 2 times more likely (link 2) to die by firearm homicide than women who did not own guns

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.93.7.1089

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199911183412106

 

[2aguy]

Access to a gun in domestic violence situations makes it 5 times more likely (link 1) that the woman will die. And a California study found that women who purchased a gun were 2 times more likely (link 2) to die by firearm homicide than women who did not own guns

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.93.7.1089

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199911183412106

No....you dumb shit......

Women bringing a violent man into their lives makes it more likely they will be a victim of violence. And when that violent male is a drug dealer, drug addict or alcoholic, that is when the chance of violent death goes up....

Normal men with normal women with a gun in the home face no increase in violence.

• 
  

• Who's at higher risk for homicide?​

  (The percentages in this paragraph are based on an examination of Kellermann's ICPSR dataset.)
  As mentioned, a reasonable estimate of gun victims killed by a gun from the victim's home is 34%.
• However, this number drops to 12.6% when households having a prior arrestee are excluded, and drops further to 7% when households with prior arrests, illicit drug use, or a history of violence are excluded.
• (That's 3.5% of all matched cases. Likewise, the previously mentioned 4½ percent figure of all homicides involving a victim killed by a gun in the home falls to 2.1%.)
  These percentages indicate Kellermann's study essentially shows that households with guns in the hands of residents having criminal records, illicit drug use, or prior histories of violence, are at a higher risk of experiencing domestic homicides.
  
  As a Dr. Pat Baranello writes in a letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine, "What the article failed to address is that gun ownership by responsible people is not a risk factor (source)."
• -------
• Households with persons having a criminal history or violence prone personality are at an increased risk for homicide, and a gun in the hands of these kinds of persons also most likely independently increases homicide risk more so than it does for law-abiding gun owning households.
  
  Mathematically speaking, logistic regression calculates only one co-efficient per risk factor (which can be converted into an odds-ratio). If a gun in the hands of persons with criminal records or a history of violence are much more prone to commit homicide than unarmed persons without those risk factors, and the large majority of cases in a regression model had a history of violence and arrests,

the odds-ratio is going to reflect the increased risk of a gun in the hands of a volatile group, rather than representing a risk factor for the general population.






Correspondence -- NEJM 1994; 330: 365-368 -- February 3, 1994

 

[sealybobo]

No....you dumb shit......

Women bringing a violent man into their lives makes it more likely they will be a victim of violence. And when that violent male is a drug dealer, drug addict or alcoholic, that is when the chance of violent death goes up....

Normal men with normal women with a gun in the home face no increase in violence.

• 
  

• Who's at higher risk for homicide?​

  (The percentages in this paragraph are based on an examination of Kellermann's ICPSR dataset.)
  As mentioned, a reasonable estimate of gun victims killed by a gun from the victim's home is 34%.
• However, this number drops to 12.6% when households having a prior arrestee are excluded, and drops further to 7% when households with prior arrests, illicit drug use, or a history of violence are excluded.
• (That's 3.5% of all matched cases. Likewise, the previously mentioned 4½ percent figure of all homicides involving a victim killed by a gun in the home falls to 2.1%.)
  These percentages indicate Kellermann's study essentially shows that households with guns in the hands of residents having criminal records, illicit drug use, or prior histories of violence, are at a higher risk of experiencing domestic homicides.
  
  As a Dr. Pat Baranello writes in a letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine, "What the article failed to address is that gun ownership by responsible people is not a risk factor (source)."
• -------
• Households with persons having a criminal history or violence prone personality are at an increased risk for homicide, and a gun in the hands of these kinds of persons also most likely independently increases homicide risk more so than it does for law-abiding gun owning households.
  
  Mathematically speaking, logistic regression calculates only one co-efficient per risk factor (which can be converted into an odds-ratio). If a gun in the hands of persons with criminal records or a history of violence are much more prone to commit homicide than unarmed persons without those risk factors, and the large majority of cases in a regression model had a history of violence and arrests,

the odds-ratio is going to reflect the increased risk of a gun in the hands of a volatile group, rather than representing a risk factor for the general population.






Correspondence -- NEJM 1994; 330: 365-368 -- February 3, 1994

I'm glad you guys are talking about this. I'm binge watching American Monster. MOST of the stories are "If I can't have her no one can" murders.

1. These women should have left the first time something weird happened. I know women like this too. Everyone tells them to leave and for some reason they don't. But then a lot of these guys wait till they have kids to become controlling monsters.

2. Story after story these women didn't go get a gun when they should have. File a restraining order and be aware because these guys come up hard and fast, or in the middle of the night. Or sometimes in broad daylight in public. These guys don't give a FUCK.

3. Story after story these guys go to jail before they murder. WE let them out way too soon. And we don't closely monitor them for a year after we let them out. We should.

4. The last one I just saw, the ex shot her boyfriend first and she called 911. Then dropped the phone and you could hear him shooting her. If she had a gun she would have lived and the guy would have died. Her boyfriend had no chance he was shot walking out of the house to his car. If someone wants you dead, and they are smart about it, you're dead. But usually these guys aren't smart they are enraged. Loud. Kick the door in. She should have a. Grabbed her gun (but she didn't have one) b. Called 911. C. Shot him when he walked in the door.

 

[2aguy]

I'm glad you guys are talking about this. I'm binge watching American Monster. MOST of the stories are "If I can't have her no one can" murders.

1. These women should have left the first time something weird happened. I know women like this too. Everyone tells them to leave and for some reason they don't. But then a lot of these guys wait till they have kids to become controlling monsters.

2. Story after story these women didn't go get a gun when they should have. File a restraining order and be aware because these guys come up hard and fast, or in the middle of the night. Or sometimes in broad daylight in public. These guys don't give a FUCK.

3. Story after story these guys go to jail before they murder. WE let them out way too soon. And we don't closely monitor them for a year after we let them out. We should.

4. The last one I just saw, the ex shot her boyfriend first and she called 911. Then dropped the phone and you could hear him shooting her. If she had a gun she would have lived and the guy would have died. Her boyfriend had no chance he was shot walking out of the house to his car. If someone wants you dead, and they are smart about it, you're dead. But usually these guys aren't smart they are enraged. Loud. Kick the door in. She should have a. Grabbed her gun (but she didn't have one) b. Called 911. C. Shot him when he walked in the door.

Gavin Debecker is a private security expert and has written several books....he provides protection for extremely wealthy clients around the world......good interview with him on the joe rogan podcast...

In his book "The Gift of Fear," he points out that you have to be careful with restraining orders..they often act as the final straw for the stalker, and send them into their most violent attack........so if I were to advise a woman, I would tell her to get a gun and learn how to use it before she gets the restraining order....

 

[sealybobo]

Gavin Debecker is a private security expert and has written several books....he provides protection for extremely wealthy clients around the world......good interview with him on the joe rogan podcast...

In his book "The Gift of Fear," he points out that you have to be careful with restraining orders..they often act as the final straw for the stalker, and send them into their most violent attack........so if I were to advise a woman, I would tell her to get a gun and learn how to use it before she gets the restraining order....

Before I read the end of your post, I was going to ask you what a woman should do if not file a restraining order. You were just saying get good at shooting a gun before you file the restraining order. I agree.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I wouldn't just take my daughter/sister/mom to the gun range I would also buy her a chicken and insist she kill it. Way too many women tell me "I could never shoot a deer". Well then it's going to be impossible to shoot a guy you once loved, who's now threatening you. I would send her through a few ju jit su classes, boxing and have her shoot a pig or chicken so she gets over the shock of killing something.

 

[2aguy]

Before I read the end of your post, I was going to ask you what a woman should do if not file a restraining order. You were just saying get good at shooting a gun before you file the restraining order. I agree.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I wouldn't just take my daughter/sister/mom to the gun range I would also buy her a chicken and insist she kill it. Way too many women tell me "I could never shoot a deer". Well then it's going to be impossible to shoot a guy you once loved, who's now threatening you. I would send her through a few ju jit su classes, boxing and have her shoot a pig or chicken so she gets over the shock of killing something.

I don't know if I agree with killing the animal as a substitute and practice for having to kill a violent attacker. Women use guns effectively all the time against violent men, because at the time of the attack, they are being violent......it would be one thing if the guy was just sitting in a chair talking calmly, but when they are in your living room with a knife, pulling the trigger is a bit easier......and the chicken or pig is an innocent, harmless animal......not the same thing...

Though I do appreciate what you are saying.

Hand to hand classes are good.....I would suggest though that they watch videos by Tim Larkin.......I think the information he puts out in his videos on youtube are incredibly valuable......knowing how to cause injury, vs. simply causing trauma is the difference between life and death.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I don't know if I agree with killing the animal as a substitute and practice for having to kill a violent attacker. Women use guns effectively all the time against violent men, because at the time of the attack, they are being violent......it would be one thing if the guy was just sitting in a chair talking calmly, but when they are in your living room with a knife, pulling the trigger is a bit easier......and the chicken or pig is an innocent, harmless animal......not the same thing...

Though I do appreciate what you are saying.

Hand to hand classes are good.....I would suggest though that they watch videos by Tim Larkin.......I think the information he puts out in his videos on youtube are incredibly valuable......knowing how to cause injury, vs. simply causing trauma is the difference between life and death.

The problem with hand to hand is that it takes too long to develop any adequate level of skill and women are always at a disadvantage in hand to hand with a man. On the other hand, a person can become well trained in the use of a firearm in a matter of days or weeks at worst. Probably the largest hurdle to overcome in firearms training is the common perception that guns are magic wands that make an assailant follow orders. The basic rule is never pull a gun unless you intend to use it and never dialog until AFTER you have eliminated the threat. Talking will do nothing but give an assailant time. If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk.

 

[2aguy]

The problem with hand to hand is that it takes too long to develop any adequate level of skill and women are always at a disadvantage in hand to hand with a man. On the other hand, a person can become well trained in the use of a firearm in a matter of days or weeks at worst. Probably the largest hurdle to overcome in firearms training is the common perception that guns are magic wands that make an assailant follow orders. The basic rule is never pull a gun unless you intend to use it and never dialog until AFTER you have eliminated the threat. Talking will do nothing but give an assailant time. If you are going to shoot, shoot, don't talk.

Yep.....which is why I advocate for people to learn how to use a gun.......I have seen stories of people without any training, effectively using a gun to stop violent attackers.........

I have trained in martial arts my entire life, and once you get past being aware and paying attention, and the rubber meets the road of physical contact.....women are at a disadvantage even with training.....

A female professional boxer......and her husband almost murdered her.........

"You can't kill me": Champion boxer fights back after being shot, stabbed by husband

Was it attempted murder or self-defense? Prizefighter Christy Martin lives to testify against her husband.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Anathema]

I’m watching Evil Lives Here. Great series. I’m addicted and binge watching. When it’s a battered wife who survived, they always talk about stalking, restraining orders and being afraid of them one day getting out. None of them say “I now carry a gun 24/7.”

I just don’t get it. I would think if you have a restraining order and they come to talk to you, you should have the right to blow them away. I wouldn’t convict them. Would you?

1. Fear that he’ll use it on them.
2. Lack of knowledge that they can get one.
3. Lack of knowledge that they CAN fight back.

We do not properly teach girls and young women that they ARE allowed to fight back, and how. That’s why I volunteer my time in several occasions every year to help run women’s self defense classes.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't know if I agree with killing the animal as a substitute and practice for having to kill a violent attacker. Women use guns effectively all the time against violent men, because at the time of the attack, they are being violent......it would be one thing if the guy was just sitting in a chair talking calmly, but when they are in your living room with a knife, pulling the trigger is a bit easier......and the chicken or pig is an innocent, harmless animal......not the same thing...

Though I do appreciate what you are saying.

Hand to hand classes are good.....I would suggest though that they watch videos by Tim Larkin.......I think the information he puts out in his videos on youtube are incredibly valuable......knowing how to cause injury, vs. simply causing trauma is the difference between life and death.

Oh they have to eat the chicken or pig afterward of course.

Women are too timid and a lot of them say to me "I could never kill/shoot someone". Some of them on these shows or even real life REFUSE to get a gun even when they know the guy is dangerous. MOST of them. So I wouldn't just take them to the gun range where they say "that was fun". I need them to think about the guy stalking them, point the gun at the chicken and say "take that tyrone"

 

[sealybobo]

1. Fear that he’ll use it on them.
2. Lack of knowledge that they can get one.
3. Lack of knowledge that they CAN fight back.

We do not properly teach girls and young women that they ARE allowed to fight back, and how. That’s why I volunteer my time in several occasions every year to help run women’s self defense classes.

Here's the difference in thinking between men and women. Now I'm not saying I want to kill someone but I don't think it would bother me one bit if I found a burglar in my home and I shot him dead. I think the world would be a much better place if all burglars and identity thieves and rapists were shot rather than caught and put in jail, and one day released. I'm not saying we should execute identity thieves, but if someone killed one, I would not lose any sleep over that piece of shit.

A woman with a gun would see a burglar in her home and let him run out.

 

[Anathema]

Here's the difference in thinking between men and women. Now I'm not saying I want to kill someone but I don't think it would bother me one bit if I found a burglar in my home and I shot him dead. I think the world would be a much better place if all burglars and identity thieves and rapists were shot rather than caught and put in jail, and one day released. I'm not saying we should execute identity thieves, but if someone killed one, I would not lose any sleep over that piece of shit.

A woman with a gun would see a burglar in her home and let him run out.

You’re partially right. Women have been taught to be less aggressive offensively and defensively. Thankfully that is changing a little bit, but not fast enough throughout a large enough segment of the population.

As for killing… you might be surprised. Once they cross the mental line of violence women are very often far more vicious than you would be led to believe. They just tend to require different triggers to get there.

Before I got my LTC I spent several months researching and discussing the idea of killing with a broad set of sources and individuals. I believe I COULD do it, if necessary, but I also undercut would change me, forever.

 

[sealybobo]

You’re partially right. Women have been taught to be less aggressive offensively and defensively. Thankfully that is changing a little bit, but not fast enough throughout a large enough segment of the population.

As for killing… you might be surprised. Once they cross the mental line of violence women are very often far more vicious than you would be led to believe. They just tend to require different triggers to get there.

Before I got my LTC I spent several months researching and discussing the idea of killing with a broad set of sources and individuals. I believe I COULD do it, if necessary, but I also undercut would change me, forever.

Yup. I had 2 guys try to break into my home. Had a bat in the door so I couldn't shut it. I pushed until they removed the bat. I could have run to my room, grabbed my gun and shot them if they walked in. I chose to close the door.

But all night I fantasized about what it would be like if I would have just allowed them in, and ran back to my room for the gun. If they came in holding a bat and golf club, I would have every right to shoot them. But even then, they'd turn and run and if the cops saw holes in their backs they'd say I didn't have to shoot. Fuck that. Once I start shooting, I'm shooting to kill you. Because you could be running back to your condo to get a gun and come back.

What do you say to that? If I shoot a guy in the stomach and he turns and runs, can I keep shooting or am I obligated to stop because he's retreating? The reason I ask is a cop used this argument. The guy was running away and the cop shot him. The argument is he could have been running back to his car to get a gun, or to use his car as a weapon.

South Carolina officer charged with murder after shooting man in back

Video shows white police officer Michael Slager shooting 50-year-old black man Walter Scott in the back at least eight times as he ran away

www.theguardian.com

Ah, you see? His argument didn't hold up in court.

Former North Charleston, South Carolina, Police Officer Michael Slager Sentenced to 20 Years in Prison for Federal Civil Rights Offense​

So my question is can I shoot someone in the back if they are an intruder and running out of my house?

 

[Anathema]

Yup. I had 2 guys try to break into my home. Had a bat in the door so I couldn't shut it. I pushed until they removed the bat. I could have run to my room, grabbed my gun and shot them if they walked in. I chose to close the door.

But all night I fantasized about what it would be like if I would have just allowed them in, and ran back to my room for the gun. If they came in holding a bat and golf club, I would have every right to shoot them. But even then, they'd turn and run and if the cops saw holes in their backs they'd say I didn't have to shoot. Fuck that. Once I start shooting, I'm shooting to kill you. Because you could be running back to your condo to get a gun and come back.

What do you say to that? If I shoot a guy in the stomach and he turns and runs, can I keep shooting or am I obligated to stop because he's retreating? The reason I ask is a cop used this argument. The guy was running away and the cop shot him. The argument is he could have been running back to his car to get a gun, or to use his car as a weapon.

South Carolina officer charged with murder after shooting man in back

Video shows white police officer Michael Slager shooting 50-year-old black man Walter Scott in the back at least eight times as he ran away

www.theguardian.com

Ah, you see? His argument didn't hold up in court.

Former North Charleston, South Carolina, Police Officer Michael Slager Sentenced to 20 Years in Prison for Federal Civil Rights Offense​

So my question is can I shoot someone in the back if they are an intruder and running out of my house?

If you truly fantasized about shooting them, you need to seek mental health assistance. I had an instance many years ago where I almost had to pull my gun on a pair of gentlemen in a parking lot. Thankfully they thought better of pressing the issue. I spent 20 minutes in my car just trying to settle myself down before I called the cops.

Spoken with many people who have killed in their lives… military, LEO, civilian; they all say it was the worst moment of their life the first time they pulled the trigger. None of them are cocky or boastful about it. Even when they were totally in the right to pull the trigger. To take on the power of God and terminate a life is a weight I hope to never be burdened with.

I agree with you that theoretically I’d love to see more criminals killed, running or not. However, the American system only allows for self-defense to the point that the threat ends. Anything beyond that is a crime, whether we like it or not.

 

[whitehall]

You don't have the right to "blow someone away" for violating a restraining order.

 

[AZrailwhale]

A court won’t issue a restraining order unless the person is a demonstrated active threat. If the person is violating the order, there is a really good case for self-defense if they break into your house, or even aggressively approach you in public. I can’t see any person holding a restraining order being prosecuted unless they go hunting.

 

[sealybobo]

You think women don't carry guns in Mississippi, Texas, Louisiana and Georgia?

The truth is 32% of Americans own guns. But there are more guns in America than people. So the 32% really really love guns.