Zone1 Who Say That They are Jews and are Not

[norwegen]

In Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9, who is John of Patmos calling the impostors in the Jewish community?

Once, not even that long ago, I would have said the Zealots and other Jewish insurrectionists. Jesus said their generation was wicked (Mt 12:39; 16:4; Lk 11:29). Josephus said they were guilty of the greatest madness (Wars 7.8.1).

But were the Zealots and Idumeans the subjects of John’s accusation? Maybe it was all the Jews who did not follow Christ? The Judaizers and even the moderate Jews?

In its historical context, Revelation is easy to comprehend. This is perhaps my one lingering question.

 

[1srelluc]

You could say the same of dem "Catholics".

 

[norwegen]

You could say the same of dem "Catholics".

Not really a recent concept. Baron De Montesquieu said the Catholic Church, having “a visible head,” like a monarchy, seemed more agreeable to those who courted authority while Protestants, who were more amenable to a “spirit of liberty and independence,” were more likely to descend on republican systems (The Spirit of Laws, Vol. II).

But who were the people who John of Patmos thought were lying about being Jews?

 

[Lisa558]

What do you mean by “Jewish insurrectionists”? Jews who defying Rome?

I don’t see how that makes them not Jews. After all, the Jews of Masada held out for two years before committing suicide rather than become subjected to Roman control. Nobody would ever say they weren’t Jewish.

 

[norwegen]

What do you mean by “Jewish insurrectionists”? Jews who defying Rome?

I don’t see how that makes them not Jews. After all, the Jews of Masada held out for two years before committing suicide rather than become subjected to Roman control. Nobody would ever say they weren’t Jewish.

Yes, the Jewish insurgents in the Jewish-Roman Wars. At least in the first war. Because of their rebellion against Rome and the civil war among themselves, they invited their own destruction.

Revelation is a letter from a Jew to his fellow Jews who were following Christ. I’m tempted to think that because the insurgents destroyed their religion and culture, they were not really Jewish as far as John was concerned. But could the “impostors” have included other Jews? Jews who were not Christian but remained neutral in the war?

 

[norwegen]

I dunno. Not really a burning question, but I was just curious.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes, the Jewish insurgents in the Jewish-Roman Wars. At least in the first war. Because of their rebellion against Rome and the civil war among themselves, they invited their own destruction.

Revelation is a letter from a Jew to his fellow Jews who were following Christ. I’m tempted to think that because the insurgents destroyed their religion and culture, they were not really Jewish as far as John was concerned. But could the “impostors” have included other Jews? Jews who were not Christian but remained neutral in the war?

That makes NO sense. You’re saying that the Jews who worshipped Jesus were the “real” Jews, and the ones who remained true to their faith were NOT the Jews?

Also, I don’t see that traditional Jews have been destroyed. We’re still here, despite attempts to eliminate us.

 

[Quantrill]

That makes NO sense. You’re saying that the Jews who worshipped Jesus were the “real” Jews, and the ones who remained true to their faith were NOT the Jews?

Also, I don’t see that traditional Jews have been destroyed. We’re still here, despite attempts to eliminate us.

(Rev. 2:9) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

(Rev. 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

You say 'the ones who remained true to their faith', which is a lie. The Jews who rejected Christ did not remain true to the faith given them by Moses and the prophets. The Jews who rejected Christ did not represent the true Israel of God. The true Jew/Israelite was one born of Abraham through Isaac, and Jacob, and who was a follower of their true God.

(Romans 9:6-7) "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Rom. 9:8-9) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."

The true Jew/Israelite is one born physically through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a child of promise as was Isaac. And not all born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are children of promise. They are not true Jews/Israelites before God. They are not of Him.

Quantrill

 

[Lisa558]

(Rev. 2:9) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

(Rev. 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

You say 'the ones who remained true to their faith', which is a lie. The Jews who rejected Christ did not remain true to the faith given them by Moses and the prophets. The Jews who rejected Christ did not represent the true Israel of God. The true Jew/Israelite was one born of Abraham through Isaac, and Jacob, and who was a follower of their true God.

(Romans 9:6-7) "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Rom. 9:8-9) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."

The true Jew/Israelite is one born physically through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a child of promise as was Isaac. And not all born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are children of promise. They are not true Jews/Israelites before God. They are not of Him.

Quantrill

Yup…….that’s just antisemitism of the NT.

“Synogogue of Satan”?! Yeeks.

I wouldn’t trust the NT to define who is Jewish and who is not, but I can see why fundamental Christians have such hostility toward Jews. It’s terrible, really.

 

[norwegen]

(Rev. 2:9) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

(Rev. 3:9) "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

You say 'the ones who remained true to their faith', which is a lie. The Jews who rejected Christ did not remain true to the faith given them by Moses and the prophets. The Jews who rejected Christ did not represent the true Israel of God. The true Jew/Israelite was one born of Abraham through Isaac, and Jacob, and who was a follower of their true God.

(Romans 9:6-7) "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Rom. 9:8-9) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."

The true Jew/Israelite is one born physically through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a child of promise as was Isaac. And not all born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, are children of promise. They are not true Jews/Israelites before God. They are not of Him.

Quantrill

Abraham was a descendant of Arphaxad, a child of Shem. Thus the Semite people. The insurrectionists were descended from Abraham, by and large. Genetically, they were Jews.

But they caused the destruction of their temple and the collapse of Judaism. They were traitors to their people, were they not? Hence John's accusation.

At least, that's my take.

 

[Lisa558]

Abraham was a descendant of Arphaxad, a child of Shem. Thus the Semite people. The insurrectionists were descended from Abraham, by and large. Genetically, they were Jews.

But they caused the destruction of their temple and the collapse of Judaism. They were traitors to their people, were they not? Hence John's accusation.

At least, that's my take.

OMG. Collapse of Judaism?? The insurrectionists were the Jews?? And the Jews were traitors? Because they didn’t abandon their religion and worship a man?!

WTF?

I’m going to bow out and let you Jew-haters have at it.

 

[norwegen]

OMG. Collapse of Judaism?? The insurrectionists were the Jews?? And the Jews were traitors?

WTF?

I’m going to bow out and let you Jew-haters have at it.

Please do. Thank you.

 

[Lisa558]

Please do. Thank you.

Yes…..I’ll let you antisemites get your rocks off pretending Judaism has collapsed and Jews were all traitors unless they abandoned our religion.

Jesus is rolling over in his grave.

 

[shimon]

Yup…….that’s just antisemitism of the NT.

“Synogogue of Satan”?! Yeeks.

I wouldn’t trust the NT to define who is Jewish and who is not, but I can see why fundamental Christians have such hostility toward Jews. It’s terrible, really.

lol… All this has been discussed before don’t let uninformed people quoting the anti jewish( written from Roman viewpoints) get you upset … Synagogue comes from the Greek word meaning assembly… Jewish people kept that word for their houses of worship others switched over to church which stems from Kirke or Circe who was the daughter of the Greek god Helios … She was the one that turned Ulysses men into swine and her depiction is still on many a churches doors.. Take it with a grain of salt .. Esp coming from the New Testament anti Jewish views and any Johnny come late lies and their mistaken takes on things..

 

[Lisa558]

lol… All this has been discussed before don’t let uninformed people quoting the anti jewish( written from Roman viewpoints) get you upset … Synagogue comes from the Greek word meaning assembly… Jewish people kept that word for their houses of worship others switched over to church which stems from Kirke or Circe who was the daughter of the Greek god Helios … She was the one that turned Ulysses men into swine and her depiction is still on many a churches doors.. Take it with a grain of salt .. Esp coming from the New Testament anti Jewish views and any Johnny come late lies and their mistaken takes on things..

Thanks. That’s basically what I said upthread: that it’s not very useful to use the anti-Jewish NT to establish that Jews were traitors, that Judaism collapsed, etc., etc.

It does get me upset, though, that in the 21st century, we still have ignorant Christians indoctrinated into such hostility toward Jews.

 

[shimon]

Thanks. That’s basically what I said upthread: that it’s not very useful to use the anti-Jewish NT to establish that Jews were traitors, that Judaism collapsed, etc., etc.

It does get me upset, though, that in the 21st century, we still have ignorant Christians indoctrinated into such hostility toward Jews.

It is because they feel completely incorrectly that they have superseded and replaced the Jews just like Islam teaches they replaced Christianity and Judaism… It has come as a great shock to their replacement theories that not only had the Jews survived but are thriving as gds son as per exodus 4 Israel has been reserected from the dead for all to see for themselves and be witnesses to this unlike their fake story… It kinda turns things upside down esp since George Orwell 1984 is upended by the story and need of Israel declaring their state in 1948.. It makes people angry and upset that they followed the wrong horse and the one they flogged all these years and treated badly is the one they should of treated better…

 

[Lisa558]

It is because they feel completely incorrectly that they have superseded and replaced the Jews just like Islam teaches they replaced Christianity and Judaism… It has come as a great shock to their replacement theories that not only had the Jews survived but are thriving as gds son as per exodus 4 Israel has been reserected from the dead for all to see for themselves and be witnesses to this unlike their fake story… It kinda turns things upside down esp since George Orwell 1984 is upended by the story and need of Israel declaring their state in 1948.. It makes people angry and upset that they followed the wrong horse and the one they flogged all these years and treated badly is the one they should of treated better…

Exactly. They can’t admit that the Jews not only have survived - but thrive. Thus, they have to convince themselves that we are not really Jews - the “real” Jews are gone, doncha know.

In fact, it was the Jews who abandoned their religion in the 1st century who became Christians, while the Jews who maintained traditional Judaism remained Jews, and we are their descendants.

I am positive that Jesus did not intend to start a new religion, and that why I said he must turning over in his grave with all the anti-Jew venom spewed in his name.

P.S. My grandfather’s name was Shimon.

 

[shimon]

Exactly. They can’t admit that the Jews not only have survived - but thrive. Thus, they have to convince themselves that we are not really Jews - the “real” Jews are gone, doncha know.

In fact, it was the Jews who abandoned their religion in the 1st century who became Christians, while the Jews who maintained traditional Judaism remained Jews, and we are their descendants.

I am positive that Jesus did not intend to start a new religion, and that why I said he must turning over in his grave with all the anti-Jew venom spewed in his name.

P.S. My grandfather’s name was Shimon.

Ahhhh… Simple Simon but not so simple that is why the descendants of Simeon were hidden away in the tribe of Judah.. Lisa there is no evidence outside of the New Testament that someone named Jesus existed .. The stories that make him come alive are taken from many individuals and remember the letter J did not exist till the late 16 th century.. So some conjecture since the Gauls made up a huge percentage of the Roman Empire and the empire wanted to control them as well the name was j ESUS pronounced Hesus the god of the Gauls.. How better to do that then take the Greek myths. the Jewish longing for a messiah and the Gauls gods name and keep everyone under control after all that is the Roman way…

 

[BreezeWood]

Yes…..I’ll let you antisemites get your rocks off pretending Judaism has collapsed and Jews were all traitors unless they abandoned our religion.

Jesus is rolling over in his grave.

the theme of the thread is they did not abandon their false religion and are plagued by their decision to this day - as jesus knew perfectly well and soundly sleeps the matter being resolved.

 

[Quantrill]

Abraham was a descendant of Arphaxad, a child of Shem. Thus the Semite people. The insurrectionists were descended from Abraham, by and large. Genetically, they were Jews.

But they caused the destruction of their temple and the collapse of Judaism. They were traitors to their people, were they not? Hence John's accusation.

At least, that's my take.

Well, your take is contrary to what the Bible says. Thus your 'take' means nothing to me.

I showed in post #(8) that being a child of Abraham means nothing to God. One is not a true Jew/Israelite unless he is a 'child of promise' as Isaac was. Many are born in Israel who are not children of promise. They are not Jews/Israelites as far as God is concerned. And his 'concern' is overall.

Quantrill