Who Is Occupying Who's Land?

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You still don't get it.

Not true.

Neither the LoN nor the mandate had possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

The Ottoman/Turkish Government relinquished sovereignty to the Allied Powers who maintained the effective control (Occupied the territory).

Most Respectfully,
R

Not true. Sovereignty is in the hands of the people. This was implied in the LoN Covenant.

Popular sovereignty in its modern sense, that is, including all the people and not just noblemen, is an idea that dates to the social contracts school (mid-17th to mid-18th centuries), represented by Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679), John Locke (1632–1704), and Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–1778), author of The Social Contract, a prominent political work that clearly highlighted the ideals of "general will" and further matured the idea of popular sovereignty. The central tenet is that legitimacy of rule or of law is based on the consent of the governed. Popular sovereignty is thus a basic tenet of most democracies.

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Right on. So what do you have against Israeli sovereignty?

Not much really. Let us assume that Israel is a legitimate state. According to international law, all of the people who normally lived in the territory that became Israel would automatically become citizens of that successor state.

That means that all of the Palestinians who normally lived in what became Israel including the refugees are Israeli citizens. The legitimacy of a government is based on the consent of the governed.

When is Israel going to have elections where all of its citizens are allowed to vote?

Let us not forget that Muslim Palestinian citizens of Israel are even represented in the Israeli Knesset with equal voting rights. So how many Christians or Jews are represented in Arab country governments with equal voting rights?

Besides Palestine?

 

[MJB12741]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You still don't get it.

Not true.

Neither the LoN nor the mandate had possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

The Ottoman/Turkish Government relinquished sovereignty to the Allied Powers who maintained the effective control (Occupied the territory).

Most Respectfully,
R

Not true. Sovereignty is in the hands of the people. This was implied in the LoN Covenant.

Popular sovereignty in its modern sense, that is, including all the people and not just noblemen, is an idea that dates to the social contracts school (mid-17th to mid-18th centuries), represented by Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679), John Locke (1632–1704), and Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–1778), author of The Social Contract, a prominent political work that clearly highlighted the ideals of "general will" and further matured the idea of popular sovereignty. The central tenet is that legitimacy of rule or of law is based on the consent of the governed. Popular sovereignty is thus a basic tenet of most democracies.

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Right on. So what do you have against Israeli sovereignty?

Not much really. Let us assume that Israel is a legitimate state. According to international law, all of the people who normally lived in the territory that became Israel would automatically become citizens of that successor state.

That means that all of the Palestinians who normally lived in what became Israel including the refugees are Israeli citizens. The legitimacy of a government is based on the consent of the governed.

When is Israel going to have elections where all of its citizens are allowed to vote?

Israel is illegitimate? Who woulda thunk it?

Interesting how modern day Israel was approved by a legal & ethical vote of the member nations of the UN. And yet every Muslim country was established by force & land theft where the native populations were given a choice of convert, leave or be killed.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You will have to teach me here.

Sovereignty is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 2) The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  • 1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
• (Article 78) The trusteeship system shall not apply to territories which have become Members of the United Nations, relationship among which shall be based on respect for the principle of sovereign equality.

Likewise, Self Determination is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 1) 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
• (Article 55) With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:

a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter-national cultural and educational cooperation; and
c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.​

Similarly, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (A/RES/3/217 A) mentions sovereignty once, and self determination not at all:

• (Article 2) Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625) is probably the most important document and guidance on the subject of self-determination, sovereign equality.

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

(STIPULATIONS)

I make the following stipulations such that these issues will not derail the overall discussion on the issue of sovereignty and independece.

• That it is the majority assumption held by the General Assembly, that "the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan are illegal and an obstacle to peace and economic and social development." (A/RES/68/82 16 December 2013)

• That the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, is applicable to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and other Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967. (A/RES/68/81 16 December 2013)

(OBSERVATIONS)

Probably the most significant UN Resolution that is specific to our discussion of Palestinian "independence/sovereignty" and the "right of self-determination" was adopted (A/67/L.28) 26 November 2012 when it accords to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations. This landmark decision made a couple of significant observations which are controversial in some discussions relative to the meaning of Palestine:

• The objective are to:
  • Achieve a "peaceful settlement in the Middle East that ends the occupation that began in 1967."
  • That the settlements fulfill the vision of two States: an independent, sovereign, democratic, contiguous and viable State of Palestine.

• To achieve "peace and security with Israel on the basis of the pre-1967 borders."

• Promote the "resumption and acceleration of negotiations within the Middle East peace process."

• The ultimate goal is to achieve a "lasting and comprehensive peace settlement between the Palestinian and Israeli sides that resolves all outstanding core issues, namely the Palestine refugees, Jerusalem, settlements, borders, security and water."

(COMMENT)

The idea that "sovereignty" was "transferred to the people of the respective new countries" is contradictory to what sovereignty is. In order for sovereignty to transfer, it has to change hands from one governmental power to another. In the case of Palestine, the government, for all intent and purpose, was NOT the indigenous population, but that of the power which had and exercised control. That is not to say that it was transferred to the Allied Powers. In fact sovereignty was not transferred at all. Rather, under the treaty, the Ottoman/Turkish Government relinquished their sovereignty, abandoning the territories to the control of the Allied Powers.

The Allied Powers of the 1920's never questioned the the Declaration of Human Rights (1948), or the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (1970), simply because they had not been codified yet; not for anther quarter century in on case and a half century in the later case. In fact, the DOP-ILFRCS was not codified until after the 1967 war.

Another problem with the assumption that "Sovereignty is in the hands of the people," is that in reality it was not. It is all well and good to express concepts on paper. But it is all together a different think when it is made real - or - blocked from exercise. If the People of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine, were sovereignty in their hands --- the completion of the Middle East would be very different today. In fact, none of these countries had total independence from the respective mandates until the end of WWII.

Today, the UN recognizes the State of Palestine within one set of boundaries (pre-1967 War boundaries). But there are factions of Jihadist and Fedayeen that insist that Palestine is:

• Example HAMAS Position Paper 2013:

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim.​

• Example Palestine National Charter of 1968:

Article 1. Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the greater Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.​

You (P F Tinmore) often expressed the concept that Israel is inside the borders of Palestine, and have steadfastly held to that conviction. Yet, there are elements of the Palestinian Movements that have adopted an ambiguous version that sounds like the UN version but is craftily worded so as to not contradict the charter: The PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) states that:

• The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
• Israel has no valid claim to any part of the West Bank or Gaza Strip. However, in the interest of peace, we have been willing to discuss minor, equitable, and mutually-agreed territorial exchanges should we decide that it is in our interest to do so.

It is important to note that the Palestinians have declared independence and have exercised the right to self-determination (twice). They have been yet to establish the stand-alone government.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

What ever in AL-Quran is "word of Allah(God)" Prophet Mohammad PBUH just Passed on to us, as I reply to you in previous two posts, please follow the advise see some muslim near you to correct your misunderstanding or may be you are reading wrong book.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

What ever in AL-Quran is "word of Allah(God)" Prophet Mohammad PBUH just Passed on to us, as I reply to you in previous two posts, please follow the advise see some muslim near you to correct your misunderstanding or may be you are reading wrong book.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

What ever in AL-Quran is "word of Allah(God)" Prophet Mohammad PBUH just Passed on to us, as I reply to you in previous two posts, please follow the advise see some muslim near you to correct your misunderstanding or may be you are reading wrong book.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

What ever in AL-Quran is "word of Allah(God)" Prophet Mohammad PBUH just Passed on to us, as I reply to you in previous two posts, please follow the advise see some muslim near you to correct your misunderstanding or may be you are reading wrong book.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

Jihad for God. And oh all those beautiful photos of beheadings.

Yes I agreed, this is not Islam and I condemned it. But unfortunately when two people fight, one innocent killed or at least one of them is innocent. I hope and wish some day mankind live as one mankind and one nation.

I will advise to whole world especially to Muslim at the moment that please when you become part of an army then you should know that what are the rules set by Islam for a Muslim army that don't hurt civilian and especially these generalist who put their life on risk to bring the facts about you. Other vise how come world know your issues or concern.

It is islam as the Koran tells muslims to sever the heads of their enemies to strike fear in their hearts. Over 200 verses in the Koran compelling muslims to be violent blood thirsty savages. Over 10 million innocent civilians murdered by muslim armies acting on the commands in the Koran in the last 66 years. that is the rules set by islam for anyone who wants to read the Koran.

It is also Al-Quran and Islam who tell to Muslim and the world be discipline, anger control,urinate by sitting and alcohol control and be God fearing, be respect women,children,elders and poorer and it is also Islam who establish world first welfare state 1400 years ago when rest of the was facing dark age. It is also Islam who establish world first multicultural and multireligion state in Jerusalem 900 years ago. It is also Islam who establish women rights 1400 years ago.

AND MORE IF YOU OPEN YOUR NEGATIVE MIND, BE POSITIVE NEGATIVE COME IT SELF BUT IF YOU ARE NEGATIVE YOU CAN NOT SEE POSITIVE THINGS IN ISLAM.

When you take the verses out that are like this one

And strike their heads from their shoulders to put fear in their heart until there is only islam

from the Koran and peoples minds then you might be listened to. But while you leave those near 300 verses in the Koran it will be viewed as a terrorists manual.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You still don't get it.

Not true.

Neither the LoN nor the mandate had possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

The Ottoman/Turkish Government relinquished sovereignty to the Allied Powers who maintained the effective control (Occupied the territory).

Most Respectfully,
R

Not true. Sovereignty is in the hands of the people. This was implied in the LoN Covenant.

Popular sovereignty in its modern sense, that is, including all the people and not just noblemen, is an idea that dates to the social contracts school (mid-17th to mid-18th centuries), represented by Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679), John Locke (1632–1704), and Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–1778), author of The Social Contract, a prominent political work that clearly highlighted the ideals of "general will" and further matured the idea of popular sovereignty. The central tenet is that legitimacy of rule or of law is based on the consent of the governed. Popular sovereignty is thus a basic tenet of most democracies.

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Correct the new countries of Trans Jordan, Iraq and Syria but not Palestine as Palestine was deliberately left out of the treaty. So the arab muslims never were given any land to make into a Palestinian state, in fact they did not refer to themselves as Palestinians until the 1960's

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You still don't get it.

Not true.

Neither the LoN nor the mandate had possession of any land.

(COMMENT)

The Ottoman/Turkish Government relinquished sovereignty to the Allied Powers who maintained the effective control (Occupied the territory).

Most Respectfully,
R

Not true. Sovereignty is in the hands of the people. This was implied in the LoN Covenant.

Popular sovereignty in its modern sense, that is, including all the people and not just noblemen, is an idea that dates to the social contracts school (mid-17th to mid-18th centuries), represented by Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679), John Locke (1632–1704), and Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712–1778), author of The Social Contract, a prominent political work that clearly highlighted the ideals of "general will" and further matured the idea of popular sovereignty. The central tenet is that legitimacy of rule or of law is based on the consent of the governed. Popular sovereignty is thus a basic tenet of most democracies.

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Right on. So what do you have against Israeli sovereignty?

Not much really. Let us assume that Israel is a legitimate state. According to international law, all of the people who normally lived in the territory that became Israel would automatically become citizens of that successor state.

That means that all of the Palestinians who normally lived in what became Israel including the refugees are Israeli citizens. The legitimacy of a government is based on the consent of the governed.

When is Israel going to have elections where all of its citizens are allowed to vote?

Wrong as any people that lived on the land that were hostile to the government could be executed, incarcerated or expelled. This happened in the US and UK during WW2 when Italians, Germans and Japanese were expelled or incarcerated as hostile citizens, with a few getting executed for crimes against the state and treason. Part of customary international law

 

[Penelope]

who in the heck are jews, read EZRA, intermarriage problem.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You will have to teach me here.

OK, I will. Or at least I will try.

Sovereignty is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 2) The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  • 1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
• (Article 78) The trusteeship system shall not apply to territories which have become Members of the United Nations, relationship among which shall be based on respect for the principle of sovereign equality.

Likewise, Self Determination is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 1) 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
• (Article 55) With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:

a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter-national cultural and educational cooperation; and
c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.​

​

"Peoples" is an interesting term. Person is singular. People is plural. What are peoples? "A people" is a group of people who share a defining characteristic. Usually, but not always, that characteristic is residing inside a defined territory. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Palestinians are a people. Collectively they are peoples. These are all nations of people.

Note that they use the term nations, not states. See political status below.

Similarly, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (A/RES/3/217 A) mentions sovereignty once, and self determination not at all:

• (Article 2) Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Note that a state or sovereign nation is not a requirement to possess these rights. When the propagandists say that Palestine was never a state, blah, blah, blah, that really doesn't matter. It is irrelevant.

The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625) is probably the most important document and guidance on the subject of self-determination, sovereign equality.

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You will have to teach me here.

OK, I will. Or at least I will try.

Sovereignty is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 2) The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  • 1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
• (Article 78) The trusteeship system shall not apply to territories which have become Members of the United Nations, relationship among which shall be based on respect for the principle of sovereign equality.

Likewise, Self Determination is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 1) 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
• (Article 55) With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:

a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter-national cultural and educational cooperation; and
c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.​

​

"Peoples" is an interesting term. Person is singular. People is plural. What are peoples? "A people" is a group of people who share a defining characteristic. Usually, but not always, that characteristic is residing inside a defined territory. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Palestinians are a people. Collectively they are peoples. These are all nations of people.

Note that they use the term nations, not states. See political status below.

Similarly, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (A/RES/3/217 A) mentions sovereignty once, and self determination not at all:

• (Article 2) Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Note that a state or sovereign nation is not a requirement to possess these rights. When the propagandists say that Palestine was never a state, blah, blah, blah, that really doesn't matter. It is irrelevant.

The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625) is probably the most important document and guidance on the subject of self-determination, sovereign equality.

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Help me out here, Tinmore. When the little hand is on the 10 and the big hand is on the 9, what time is it ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You will have to teach me here.

OK, I will. Or at least I will try.

Sovereignty is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 2) The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  • 1. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
• (Article 78) The trusteeship system shall not apply to territories which have become Members of the United Nations, relationship among which shall be based on respect for the principle of sovereign equality.

Likewise, Self Determination is mentioned twice in the UN Charter:

• (Article 1) 2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
• (Article 55) With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, the United Nations shall promote:

a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development;
b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and inter-national cultural and educational cooperation; and
c. universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.​

​

"Peoples" is an interesting term. Person is singular. People is plural. What are peoples? "A people" is a group of people who share a defining characteristic. Usually, but not always, that characteristic is residing inside a defined territory. The French are a people. The British are a people. The Palestinians are a people. Collectively they are peoples. These are all nations of people.

Note that they use the term nations, not states. See political status below.

Similarly, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (A/RES/3/217 A) mentions sovereignty once, and self determination not at all:

• (Article 2) Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Note that a state or sovereign nation is not a requirement to possess these rights. When the propagandists say that Palestine was never a state, blah, blah, blah, that really doesn't matter. It is irrelevant.

The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States (A/RES/25/2625) is probably the most important document and guidance on the subject of self-determination, sovereign equality.

The sovereignty was transferred to the people of the respective new countries. This has been reiterated in the UN Charter and subsequent resolutions.

Most Respectfully,
R

Help me out here, Tinmore. When the little hand is on the 10 and the big hand is on the 9, what time is it ?

9:45

 

[RoccoR]

Paul,

Help me out here, Tinmore. When the little hand is on the 10 and the big hand is on the 9, what time is it ?

9:45

Maybe 9:55

v/r
R

 

[montelatici]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

 

[toastman]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

The fact that you see the situation so simple like you just said, shows how brainwashed you are and how much you distort history..

 

[Rehmani]

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

Like all holy books the Koran is the word of man, not god. It was a mentally defective man that recited the Koran in the 7c, a man that had frontal lobe epilepsy that manifests as delusions, hearing voices and seeing visions. No other person saw or heard these visitations, and as the hadiths tell us Mohamed often recited a different version on the verses on two seperate days. The consensus of opinion is that one of his sex slaves a Jewish girl told him of the Torah and its teachings and he used her stories as the basis for the Koran. He added verses extolling violence and murder because that is what most arabs of the time understood. One arab group worshipped 3 goddesses that manifested as cranes so he introduced them as allahs wives in one section of the Koran. He later claimed that this was given to him by the devil, but did not take them out and have them changed. The Koran is full of mistakes from a god that is supposed to be omnipotent like seminal fluid coming from the spine.

I have seen many muslim clerics in my life and not one has been able to explain the satanic verses, the many mistakes and the violence. I had one who stated that Mohamed had never killed a man in his life, then I showed him the Bukhari hadiths that show he killed many in clod blood. Another denied that he was an Incestuous paedophile until he read the Bukhari hadiths that show he married his brothers 9 year old daughter after changing the laws to allow him to do so.

So it is you that needs to get your brain into gear and read the Koran and hadiths properly to see that it is plagiarism and a terrorist manual.

Jihad for God. And oh all those beautiful photos of beheadings.

Yes I agreed, this is not Islam and I condemned it. But unfortunately when two people fight, one innocent killed or at least one of them is innocent. I hope and wish some day mankind live as one mankind and one nation.

I will advise to whole world especially to Muslim at the moment that please when you become part of an army then you should know that what are the rules set by Islam for a Muslim army that don't hurt civilian and especially these generalist who put their life on risk to bring the facts about you. Other vise how come world know your issues or concern.

It is islam as the Koran tells muslims to sever the heads of their enemies to strike fear in their hearts. Over 200 verses in the Koran compelling muslims to be violent blood thirsty savages. Over 10 million innocent civilians murdered by muslim armies acting on the commands in the Koran in the last 66 years. that is the rules set by islam for anyone who wants to read the Koran.

It is also Al-Quran and Islam who tell to Muslim and the world be discipline, anger control,urinate by sitting and alcohol control and be God fearing, be respect women,children,elders and poorer and it is also Islam who establish world first welfare state 1400 years ago when rest of the was facing dark age. It is also Islam who establish world first multicultural and multireligion state in Jerusalem 900 years ago. It is also Islam who establish women rights 1400 years ago.

AND MORE IF YOU OPEN YOUR NEGATIVE MIND, BE POSITIVE NEGATIVE COME IT SELF BUT IF YOU ARE NEGATIVE YOU CAN NOT SEE POSITIVE THINGS IN ISLAM.

When you take the verses out that are like this one

And strike their heads from their shoulders to put fear in their heart until there is only islam

from the Koran and peoples minds then you might be listened to. But while you leave those near 300 verses in the Koran it will be viewed as a terrorists manual.

You only talking nonsense and criticizing Islam and using me because you know I am Muslim and I don't know what your beleave is, as I told you that you are hypocrite and sound you like you are in India.
If you come up front with your religion, if you have any. Then I will fix up your nonsense and then you will learn how smelly you are from the back and from the front.
If you are jewish which I doubt it. But one thing for sure you are paid tout and you are making your living by spreading hate, insulting others and others religions, and spreading misunderstanding among people, how cruel you are you know that you are living evil in human body. You Should be sham full on your life.

 

[Phoenall]

And the Palestinians do posses these rights and have since they laid false claim to the land. The problems arise when the arab muslims refuse to take up these rights and expect others to do all the work for them. They declared independence in 1988 and have done nothing the exercise their rights since. They demand that Israel stops occupying the land yet will not meet to discus the legal aspects that are needed to put an end to the occupation. Get the Palestinians to exercise their rights and stick to CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW and we will see an end to the fighting and occupation

 

[Phoenall]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

WRONG as the people from Europe did not expel anyone, it was the arab muslims that expelled the Jews from their homes in the M.E. Over 1 million Jews were forcibly expelled from their homes in just the clothes they wore. Many of the people living there were hostile and terrorists so they were evicted from Israel in 1948/1949 under CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW. The true Palestinians stayed in Israel and their descendants are still there to this day as full Israeli citizens. The Christians have faced recent ethnic cleansing in gaza and the west bank at the hands of the arab muslims who have reduced the population from 12% down to 2%. want to argue about these facts child as the evidence is available freely.

 

[Phoenall]

I am an Anglican from the birth place of Anglicanism. I have walked the same pastures as Jesus did before islam was invented by the psychotic camel herder.

 

[montelatici]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

The fact that you see the situation so simple like you just said, shows how brainwashed you are and how much you distort history..

How is this basic fact not a fact? How is it a distortion of the fact when states that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there? It is you that is attempting to distort, justify or otherwise disguise what actually happened.

 

[montelatici]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

WRONG as the people from Europe did not expel anyone, it was the arab muslims that expelled the Jews from their homes in the M.E. Over 1 million Jews were forcibly expelled from their homes in just the clothes they wore. Many of the people living there were hostile and terrorists so they were evicted from Israel in 1948/1949 under CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW. The true Palestinians stayed in Israel and their descendants are still there to this day as full Israeli citizens. The Christians have faced recent ethnic cleansing in gaza and the west bank at the hands of the arab muslims who have reduced the population from 12% down to 2%. want to argue about these facts child as the evidence is available freely.

"WRONG as the people from Europe did not expel anyone"

What is the difference between expelling and evicting? You continue to just make things up. You are one nutcase bullshitter, that's for sure. There is no evidence you silly little man, if there were you would provide it. You just mouth off a bunch of nonsense.

 

[MJB12741]

The basic fact is that people from Europe went to Palestine and expelled many of the people that were living there, that happened to be Muslim and Christian. If anyone, including Rocco, can deny this fact, bring it on.

WRONG as the people from Europe did not expel anyone, it was the arab muslims that expelled the Jews from their homes in the M.E. Over 1 million Jews were forcibly expelled from their homes in just the clothes they wore. Many of the people living there were hostile and terrorists so they were evicted from Israel in 1948/1949 under CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW. The true Palestinians stayed in Israel and their descendants are still there to this day as full Israeli citizens. The Christians have faced recent ethnic cleansing in gaza and the west bank at the hands of the arab muslims who have reduced the population from 12% down to 2%. want to argue about these facts child as the evidence is available freely.

"WRONG as the people from Europe did not expel anyone"

What is the difference between expelling and evicting? You continue to just make things up. You are one nutcase bullshitter, that's for sure. There is no evidence you silly little man, if there were you would provide it. You just mouth off a bunch of nonsense.

Now now Monte, calm down. You'll give yourself a sroke or something. And we need you here for laughs.