Who is David Chipman?

[Rigby5]

The Davidians killed themselves when their realized their fake Jesus was going to prison.

It's amusing the same people who get on here and rationalize police violence against black people are the same ones who thought a bunch of gun-nut, child molesting cultists were the victims when they shot Federal Agents and then committed mass suicide.

While I am left wing, I do not believe any of the claims about Koresh or the Branch Davidians at all.

First of all, I doubt there was any legal charges against them.
The child molesting charges are contradicted by the fact it was the BATF who did the raid, not local child protective services.
Child protection is of vastly higher priority than gun licensing.
And yet there was never any indication there was any intent to ever prosecute that until after the BATF botched their raid so dramatically.
That means the child molesting allegations were a coverup created after the fact.
Just a smear campaign, to prevent sympathy.

Second is that the Branch Davidians were not at all "gun nuts", but simply were desperate for a source of income, and correctly surmised they could make money in TX by selling, building, and converting guns.
They did nothing illegal.
They had federal firearms licenses.
They were experimenting with legal drop-in full auto sears for ARs, but that is perfectly legal as long as the BATF gets $200 for each conversion sold.
And it appears none had yet been sold.

Third is that I do not believe the Branch Davidians shot anyone.
Look at the images more carefully.
Specifically the ones where the BATF are entering a 2nd story window.

The actual sequence has a group of BATF entering this window unopposed.
Notice no bullet holes in the wall.
But in the video shown on the news, they show the shooting starting with a group of BATF on this roof shooting it out with people inside, and bullet holes being left in this wall, to the left of the window.
Leaving the only possible conclusion, that 2 different groups of BATF targeted this window, and the 2nd group, unaware the first was already inside, started the shooting, and the BATF inside returned fire at the later BATF outside.
There is no other possible explanations.
And if you notice, they always show these images out of sequence, where they show the shooting through the wall first, then later BATF entering the window, with the bullet holes in the wall magically gone.
I repeat. The only possible explanation for these out of sequence images is the BATF opened fire on their own forces.

Forth is the claim of suicide makes absolutely no sense at all.
The electricity had been cut off for over a month, so the Davidians were using kerosene lanterns, and the FBI knew it.
But yet they started deliberately punching holes in walls with tank recovery vehicles.
There can be no doubt that was bound to start fires, and smashing holes in the walls of a building is bound to knock over at least 1 lantern.
And this had to be the deliberate intent, since they did not just open a few entry points
This image shows 4 tanks in a row, which makes no sense if one wanted to just punch an entry hole.
They clearly wanted to quickly collapse the whole building at once, making survival impossible for anyone inside.

The claim of suicide makes no sense.
First of all, I doubt anyone other than true Buddhist monk could commit suicide by fire.
I can think of no more painful death than fire.
Second is that if suicide were the intent, then why try to gather everyone in the underground bunker, which should have been safe?
Even the FBI report says it was NOT suicide, but that the propane tank miraculously blew a hole down through a concrete floor, into the bunker.
None of which makes any sense.
Propane tanks are always outside, at least some distance.
And you don't build a bunker by tunneling, but by digging in the open and then building a top over it.
In which case, the propane tank really could not have been on top of the bunker.
Nor would a propane tank rupturing from heat pressure, drill downward through concrete.
The path of least resistance would be upward.
Much more likely is a special shaped charge was used to penetrate the bunker, and it has the expected results to the occupants.

None of the FBI or BATF claims make any sense.
If the charges were real, then Koresh would have just been arrested on one of his daily trips into town.
If the standoff was real, then friends/relatives would have been brought in to negotiate.
If it were not deliberate murder, then most of the people would have survived, as there were plenty of ways to escape, and no one would have been dedicated enough to deliberately allow themselves to be slowly burned to death.
Nor could anyone believe a ruptured propane tank would burrow down into a concrete bunker.
To not have a single survivor is just impossible.
Nor was there any case against Koresh.
He would never have spend a night in jail.

 

[Rigby5]

Whackadoodle cultists killing themselves is fucking hilarious.



I would agree that the ATF and FBI handled this badly. (I don't blame Clinton or Reno, they were new on the job and deferred to the assumption that the FBI knew what it was doing.) They probably should have just waited for them to run out of food.

But at the end of the day, Koresh made the decision to open fire on federal agents (and he knew they were federal agents) and Koresh was the one who decided that mass suicide was preferable to him going to jail as a chomo.

There is zero evidence the Davidians started the shooting, and it is pretty much for sure the BATF did.
Besides the "window" images that are very convincing, there is a the fact so many of the Davidians, like Koresh himself, were shot while trying to negotiate, with their hands up.
This is substantiated by the fact the FBI sniper, Lon Horiuchi, fired the first shots at the Randy Weaver incident, killing his unarmed wife.
It appears to be FBI standard "rules of engagement", to kill first.

 

[B. Kidd]

The nomination is withdrawn today. The search begins for one that is less well known but just as bad.

Chipman is history. A minor victory, but a victory nonetheless!

 

[Rigby5]

Was he the guy who made the decisions?

Here's the thing. The FBI at that time really had no experience dealing with cults. To them, they figured that if they cut off the power and the water, eventually, they'd get tired and come out.

But the blame belongs on Koresh and his deluded followers, who did evolution a favor and removed themselves from the gene pool.

How could Koresh have convinced anyone to deliberately let themselves be slowly burned to death?
Impossible.
That takes Buddhist monk type training and dedication.
There is no way everyone died except that they were all deliberately killed.
No other explanation is even remotely possible.

The fact the press was removed by force is alone enough to convince me the FBI were intent on crime and cover up.
They do not have the authority to remove the media by force like they did.

 

[Rigby5]

Because the children were in danger being with these people. that was the point. The local sheriff was corrupted.



Oh, noes, more crazy "Video Analysis". Uh, guy, we had three investigations of Waco, and they all found the same thing. The Davidians fired first. They knew these guys were ATF Agents and they broke out the guns.


You right wing fucks justify cops shooting kids playing with toys or reaching for cell phones as okay because "scary black people", but a bunch of fucked up inbred cultists stockpiling guns and molesting kids get all this consideration from you... because they're white?

No, there was NEVER a single charge or testimony of any child abuse, ever.
That was all made up, after the fact, as part of a deliberate smear campaign.
A year before there was a divorce with custody hearing, where some vague child abuse implications were thrown around, but never any actual testimony.
And exactly how could the local sheriff be "corrupted"?
The Davidians did not have enough money to bribe anyone.

And obviously you are totally wrong.
Sure they knew it was a BATF raid.
It said BATF all over everything.
But the point is Koresh went out the front door to talk, and was then shot.
Clearly the BATF shot first.
There is zero evidence of anything else.

And again, I am VASTLY more left wing than you are.
The Branch Davidians were left wing, not right wing.
And they were NOT stockpiling guns.
They were too poor for that.
For them, guns were just a means of income because it was TX.
You clearly do not know any of the actual details.
I suggest you do some actual research some time.

 

[JoeB131]

While I am left wing, I do not believe any of the claims about Koresh or the Branch Davidians at all.

First of all, I doubt there was any legal charges against them.
The child molesting charges are contradicted by the fact it was the BATF who did the raid, not local child protective services.
Child protection is of vastly higher priority than gun licensing.
And yet there was never any indication there was any intent to ever prosecute that until after the BATF botched their raid so dramatically.

Not true. The allegations of Child molestation were in the warrant against the Davidians. CPS had been investigating the Davidians for some time, despite interference from the local sheriff.

Waco Search Warrant

On December 7,1992, I spoke with Special Agent Carlos Torres, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Houston, Texas, who had been assisting me in a portion of this investigation. He related to me the results of his interview on December 4,1992, with Joyce Sparks, Texas Department of Human Service, Waco, Texas. Special Agent Torres told me that Ms. Sparks received a complaint from outside the State of Texas, that David Doresh was operating a commune type compound, and that he was sexually abusing young girls. Ms. Sparks stated that on February 27,1992, she along with two other employees of the Texas Department of Human Services and Two McLennan County Sheriff's Deputies responded to the complaint. They went to the Mount CArmel Center compound located east of Waco in McLennan County. When they arrived at the compound, they were met by a lady who identified herself as Rachel Koresh, the wife of David Koresh.

On December 12,1992, I interviewed Jeannine Bunds, the mother of Robyn and David Bunds. She told me that she was a former member of Howell's group in Waco, Texas, having left there in September 1991. She is a registered nurse and was working in that capacity at the Good Samaritan Hospital, Los Angeles, California. While at Howell's commune in Waco, she participated in live fire shooting exercises conducted by Howell. She saw several long guns there, some of which she described as AK-47 rifles. Mrs. Bunds described the weapon to me and was able identify an AK-47 from among a number of photographs of firearms shown to her by me. I believe that she is well able to identify an AK-47. In July of 1991, she saw Howell shooting a machinegun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machinegun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it. Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children from various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven(7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, accoring to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood.

Second is that the Branch Davidians were not at all "gun nuts", but simply were desperate for a source of income, and correctly surmised they could make money in TX by selling, building, and converting guns.
They did nothing illegal.
They had federal firearms licenses.
They were experimenting with legal drop-in full auto sears for ARs, but that is perfectly legal as long as the BATF gets $200 for each conversion sold.

Actually, the conversion of AR-15 to fully automatic IS illegal.

Third is that I do not believe the Branch Davidians shot anyone.
Look at the images more carefully.

I have. So did three investigations by the government, including one by John Danforth. They all concluded the Davidians shot first.

Forth is the claim of suicide makes absolutely no sense at all.
The electricity had been cut off for over a month, so the Davidians were using kerosene lanterns, and the FBI knew it.
But yet they started deliberately punching holes in walls with tank recovery vehicles.
There can be no doubt that was bound to start fires, and smashing holes in the walls of a building is bound to knock over at least 1 lantern.

They wouldn't have been running the lanterns during the day when they had sunlight coming in.

How could Koresh have convinced anyone to deliberately let themselves be slowly burned to death?
Impossible.
That takes Buddhist monk type training and dedication.
There is no way everyone died except that they were all deliberately killed.
No other explanation is even remotely possible.

Uh, dude, seriously? How did Jim Jones get the People's Temple cultists to not only drink poison, but give it to their children. How did Marshall Applewhite get all his followers to drink poison in the heaven's gate cult. This is what cults do...

No, there was NEVER a single charge or testimony of any child abuse, ever.
That was all made up, after the fact, as part of a deliberate smear campaign.

Uh, no, it was specifically mentioned in the warrant.

Sheriff says he did not curb probe: Social worker claims Harwell told her to back off inquiry on Branch Davidian children

Almost a year before the bloody Feb. 28 shootout at Mount Carmel, McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell told a child welfare worker to back off an investigation of alleged child

wacotrib.com

The CPS investigation was opened Feb. 26, 1992, and closed April 30, 1992. Sparks says the case should have remained open for monitoring.
In the Tribune-Herald’s series, “The Sinful Messiah,” former cult members said that cult leader Vernon Howell sometimes severely whipped children as young as 8 months old and had sex with girls as young as 12.

The series also reported that a former cult member said that when child welfare workers went to the compound, Howell hid some of the children at Mount Carmel as well as some of the underage girls that he reportedly had sex with.

And Sparks charges that her supervisor did not reopen a case on the Branch Davidian children when a new allegation of sexual abuse was brought forward by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms days before the raid — a move which might have allowed authorities to call Howell off the compound where he could have been arrested without incident.

 

[JoeB131]

And again, I am VASTLY more left wing than you are.
The Branch Davidians were left wing, not right wing.
And they were NOT stockpiling guns.
They were too poor for that.
For them, guns were just a means of income because it was TX.
You clearly do not know any of the actual details.
I suggest you do some actual research some time.

If you say you are more left wing, that's fine. I don't identify as left-wing or right wing, I identify as a pragmatist. If I side more with the Democrats these days, it's because the NUTS have taken over the GOP... The religious zealots, the Libertarian Children and of course, the Gun Fetishists.

I've done a lot of research. They had hundreds of guns.

Total of Guns found at Waco!

Machine guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles 20 AK-47 Type Rifles 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers 61 AK-47 Type 34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers 13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge 11 7.62MM FN FAL Type 10 Mini-14 Type 7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type 6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1 6 Assorted Rifles 5 M-11/Nine 5 M-14 Type 3 Galil 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 1 Air Rifle 1 Heckler and Koch MP-5 1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta 13 Glock 8 Assorted Revolvers 6 Safari Arms 6 Assorted Pistols 5 Sig Sauer 5 Walther 2 Taurus

Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type 248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type 108 Sten Gun Type 88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type 72 M-14 Type 61 Beretta Model Type 92 58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type 28 Ruger Mini-14 Type 22 .22 Caliber 17 UZI Type 16 USAS-12 Type 13 .45 Caliber 11 Glock 11 MP-5 11 Sig Sauer P226/P228 9 Unknown Type 7 .308 Caliber Galil Type 6 Walther PPK 5 9mm Unknown Type 4 .50 Caliber 3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine 3 .380 Auto Caliber 2 9mm Smith & Wesson 1 AK-74 Type 1 Grendel

Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers) 15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers) 4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers) 1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)

Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15 42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type 35 AK-47 28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type 15 Unknown 10 M-14 6 M-1 Carbine 3 .50 Caliber 1 Mini-14 Magazine 1 Glock

 

[Rigby5]

Not true. The allegations of Child molestation were in the warrant against the Davidians. CPS had been investigating the Davidians for some time, despite interference from the local sheriff.

Waco Search Warrant

On December 7,1992, I spoke with Special Agent Carlos Torres, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Houston, Texas, who had been assisting me in a portion of this investigation. He related to me the results of his interview on December 4,1992, with Joyce Sparks, Texas Department of Human Service, Waco, Texas. Special Agent Torres told me that Ms. Sparks received a complaint from outside the State of Texas, that David Doresh was operating a commune type compound, and that he was sexually abusing young girls. Ms. Sparks stated that on February 27,1992, she along with two other employees of the Texas Department of Human Services and Two McLennan County Sheriff's Deputies responded to the complaint. They went to the Mount CArmel Center compound located east of Waco in McLennan County. When they arrived at the compound, they were met by a lady who identified herself as Rachel Koresh, the wife of David Koresh.

On December 12,1992, I interviewed Jeannine Bunds, the mother of Robyn and David Bunds. She told me that she was a former member of Howell's group in Waco, Texas, having left there in September 1991. She is a registered nurse and was working in that capacity at the Good Samaritan Hospital, Los Angeles, California. While at Howell's commune in Waco, she participated in live fire shooting exercises conducted by Howell. She saw several long guns there, some of which she described as AK-47 rifles. Mrs. Bunds described the weapon to me and was able identify an AK-47 from among a number of photographs of firearms shown to her by me. I believe that she is well able to identify an AK-47. In July of 1991, she saw Howell shooting a machinegun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machinegun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it. Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children from various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven(7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, accoring to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood.


Actually, the conversion of AR-15 to fully automatic IS illegal.

I have. So did three investigations by the government, including one by John Danforth. They all concluded the Davidians shot first.

They wouldn't have been running the lanterns during the day when they had sunlight coming in.

Uh, dude, seriously? How did Jim Jones get the People's Temple cultists to not only drink poison, but give it to their children. How did Marshall Applewhite get all his followers to drink poison in the heaven's gate cult. This is what cults do...

Uh, no, it was specifically mentioned in the warrant.

Sheriff says he did not curb probe: Social worker claims Harwell told her to back off inquiry on Branch Davidian children

Almost a year before the bloody Feb. 28 shootout at Mount Carmel, McLennan County Sheriff Jack Harwell told a child welfare worker to back off an investigation of alleged child

wacotrib.com

The CPS investigation was opened Feb. 26, 1992, and closed April 30, 1992. Sparks says the case should have remained open for monitoring.
In the Tribune-Herald’s series, “The Sinful Messiah,” former cult members said that cult leader Vernon Howell sometimes severely whipped children as young as 8 months old and had sex with girls as young as 12.

The series also reported that a former cult member said that when child welfare workers went to the compound, Howell hid some of the children at Mount Carmel as well as some of the underage girls that he reportedly had sex with.

And Sparks charges that her supervisor did not reopen a case on the Branch Davidian children when a new allegation of sexual abuse was brought forward by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms days before the raid — a move which might have allowed authorities to call Howell off the compound where he could have been arrested without incident.

Totally wrong.

If those unsubstantiated claims of Koresh fathering every single child born there and in 12 year olds, then the local authorities would already have acted.
Births have to be recorded and the ages would have been a red flag.
That is not evidence in front of a judge, who could issue a warrant.

And you are totally wrong about AR conversions to full auto.
If Colt can make them for sale, anyone can make them.
All they have to do is be licenses, like the Branch Davidians were, and pay the $200 tax per rifle, which the Branch Davidians never had to do because they had not yet tried to sell one.
You will find dozens of companies making and selling "drop in sears" to make any AR full auto.
There is no way government can make sale of parts or home conversion, illegal.
It is not possible.
To do so would require making it illegal for Colt to make them for the military.

The number of fake investigations into who shot first is irrelevant.
Clearly the Davidians had no intentions of shooting first since Koresh opened the front door and went outside.
That would be suicide if he intended to have shooting start.
And Koresh was seriously wounded when the BATF then opened fire on him.
No investigation has ever claimed any particular Davidian was supposed to have fired first.
And without independent witnesses, clearly it is the BATF who are most likely lying.

The lanterns were needed during the day because the windows were boarded up.
If Koresh had ordered the fire set, everyone inside would have known, and the whole place would not have gone up at once.
Clearly the fire was set from the outside, and in many places all at once.
The tanks smashing holes were not for entry, but for kindling in order for the fires to take hold.
It is otherwise very hard for fires to get started on drywall and siding covered walls.

Here are the accounts of the 9 survivors, and clearly the FBI intended for no survivors, by deliberately targeting stairways.
{...
Those inside say the tanks destroyed the interior staircases, trapping many on the second floor. David Thibodeau says he barely escaped.

“The wall started to catch fire and I could feel the heat,” Thibodeau said. “It singed the side of my face… I could hear my hair crackle.”

As the fire closed in, both Doyle and Thibodeau said they ran to escape the swirling inferno, jumping through a hole ripped open in the building by one of the government tanks.

“I could hear some of the ones that were further back into the building behind me screaming,” Doyle said. “I thought, ‘Nobody's getting out of there now.’”

In the end, about 80 people, including more than 20 children, died in the fire. Only nine people survived.
...}

Survivors of 1993 Waco siege describe what happened in fire that ended the 51-day standoff

The Branch Davidians had barricaded themselves in their compound outside of Waco, Texas when federal agents stormed in.

abcnews.go.com

And this is not at all similar to Jim Jones group in remote jungle, which was extremely isolated and controlled.
The Branch Davidians were mostly about living in a commune to save money.
They were not isolated and frequently went to town, visited relatives, etc.

You don't seem to understand law.
The BATF has no authority to get child protection services to create warrant.
That would be third hand testimony, and totally illegal.
And the BATF did not need child protection services to get Koresh arrested the day before the raid, in town.
If they had any evidence, they could have presented it to judge themselves.
But they didn't because they had NO evidence.
The Davidians had broken no law.

Do you actually believe that with all these guns there, that parents would just sit by while Koresh whipped 8 month old babies and had sex with their 12 year old daughters?
That's crazy.
It never happened, and there is no first hand testimony in any court that it did happen.

 

[Turtlesoup]

The Davidians killed themselves when their realized their fake Jesus was going to prison.

It's amusing the same people who get on here and rationalize police violence against black people are the same ones who thought a bunch of gun-nut, child molesting cultists were the victims when they shot Federal Agents and then committed mass suicide.

ACtually as much as I hate Jesus freaks----this group didn't commit suicide....the government CLINTON/whatever that he she leader thing was heading law enforcement names was fucked up over and over and over and over again....up to causing the deaths at the Davidians.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Whackadoodle cultists killing themselves is fucking hilarious.



I would agree that the ATF and FBI handled this badly. (I don't blame Clinton or Reno, they were new on the job and deferred to the assumption that the FBI knew what it was doing.) They probably should have just waited for them to run out of food.

But at the end of the day, Koresh made the decision to open fire on federal agents (and he knew they were federal agents) and Koresh was the one who decided that mass suicide was preferable to him going to jail as a chomo.

You think the FBI killing off a bunch of kids is ok?

 

[Rigby5]

If you say you are more left wing, that's fine. I don't identify as left-wing or right wing, I identify as a pragmatist. If I side more with the Democrats these days, it's because the NUTS have taken over the GOP... The religious zealots, the Libertarian Children and of course, the Gun Fetishists.

I've done a lot of research. They had hundreds of guns.

Total of Guns found at Waco!

Machine guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles 20 AK-47 Type Rifles 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers 61 AK-47 Type 34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers 13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge 11 7.62MM FN FAL Type 10 Mini-14 Type 7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type 6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1 6 Assorted Rifles 5 M-11/Nine 5 M-14 Type 3 Galil 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 1 Air Rifle 1 Heckler and Koch MP-5 1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta 13 Glock 8 Assorted Revolvers 6 Safari Arms 6 Assorted Pistols 5 Sig Sauer 5 Walther 2 Taurus

Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type 248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type 108 Sten Gun Type 88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type 72 M-14 Type 61 Beretta Model Type 92 58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type 28 Ruger Mini-14 Type 22 .22 Caliber 17 UZI Type 16 USAS-12 Type 13 .45 Caliber 11 Glock 11 MP-5 11 Sig Sauer P226/P228 9 Unknown Type 7 .308 Caliber Galil Type 6 Walther PPK 5 9mm Unknown Type 4 .50 Caliber 3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine 3 .380 Auto Caliber 2 9mm Smith & Wesson 1 AK-74 Type 1 Grendel

Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers) 15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers) 4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers) 1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)

Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15 42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type 35 AK-47 28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type 15 Unknown 10 M-14 6 M-1 Carbine 3 .50 Caliber 1 Mini-14 Magazine 1 Glock

Wrong.
They went to gun shows and supported themselves by selling guns.
Those were not their personal guns, but business inventory.
Nothing they had was illegal, and full auto conversions are perfectly legal.
The practice grenades they sold were part of complaint department joke.

Your information clearly is wrong and biased.
For example, your list says, "4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades"
That is impossible. A grenade can not be both "practice" and "live" at the same time.
There is not a single thing the Davidians could have been convicted of.

 

[JWBooth]

You think the FBI killing off a bunch of kids is ok?

Sure he does most turds do.

 

[JoeB131]

Totally wrong.

If those unsubstantiated claims of Koresh fathering every single child born there and in 12 year olds, then the local authorities would already have acted.
Births have to be recorded and the ages would have been a red flag.
That is not evidence in front of a judge, who could issue a warrant.

Really? Frankly, you must not pay attention to these cases where they frequently find children beaten to death by parents who were given a clean bill of health. CPS departments are woefully underfunded and they have a high burnout rate on their investigators, because usually, the courts don't take kids out of these bad situations.

You think the FBI killing off a bunch of kids is ok?

The FBI didn't kill them, they killed themselves.

And I'm not a big FBI fan. They do a lot of shit that is fucked up. They really fucked up at Waco.

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong.
They went to gun shows and supported themselves by selling guns.
Those were not their personal guns, but business inventory.
Nothing they had was illegal, and full auto conversions are perfectly legal.
The practice grenades they sold were part of complaint department joke.

Oh, please. They weren't into the novelty gift business.

They were religious fanatics prepping for the apocalypse

As for selling them at the gun shows, um, yeah, that's the point. They were using the notorious gun show loophole to sell weapons to people who couldn't get them from licensed dealers

.

And you are totally wrong about AR conversions to full auto.
If Colt can make them for sale, anyone can make them.
All they have to do is be licenses, like the Branch Davidians were, and pay the $200 tax per rifle, which the Branch Davidians never had to do because they had not yet tried to sell one.
You will find dozens of companies making and selling "drop in sears" to make any AR full auto.
There is no way government can make sale of parts or home conversion, illegal.
It is not possible.
To do so would require making it illegal for Colt to make them for the military.

No, you can't ban the sale of the parts... but once you do the conversion, you've broken the law.

The point was, the Davidians didn't have a license for fully automatic weapons, and it wasn't bloody likely they'd have gotten them.

The number of fake investigations into who shot first is irrelevant.
Clearly the Davidians had no intentions of shooting first since Koresh opened the front door and went outside.
That would be suicide if he intended to have shooting start.
And Koresh was seriously wounded when the BATF then opened fire on him.
No investigation has ever claimed any particular Davidian was supposed to have fired first.
And without independent witnesses, clearly it is the BATF who are most likely lying.

You are trying to apply rational thinking to a bunch of insane cultists.

The Waco Raid at 25: Enough With the Fairy Tale Lies

It’s the anniversary of the Branch Davidian compound raid, that tragic story of fatal overreach by jackbooted government thugs. The story is total fiction.

www.thedailybeast.com

I mean, sweet evil Jesus, what kind of an idiot responds to federal officers serving a warrant by passing out guns putting on bullet-proof vests. Koresh knew they were ATF agents, he had been warned 45 minutes before they had arrived.

I'm usually the first one to criticize law enforcement when they use excessive force. This wasn't excessive force. This was handling a mad cult with a lot of weapons.

The lanterns were needed during the day because the windows were boarded up.
If Koresh had ordered the fire set, everyone inside would have known, and the whole place would not have gone up at once.
Clearly the fire was set from the outside, and in many places all at once.
The tanks smashing holes were not for entry, but for kindling in order for the fires to take hold.
It is otherwise very hard for fires to get started on drywall and siding covered walls.

Okay, some flaws in this claim.

The holes were punched into the walls to inject CS Gas into the building and drive them out. YOu can make an argument that was excessive, particularly since there were children inside. (I still remember my experiences with CS when I was in the service.)

They however, stopped injecting CS Into the building by 8 AM. The fires started at 11:40

And this is not at all similar to Jim Jones group in remote jungle, which was extremely isolated and controlled.
The Branch Davidians were mostly about living in a commune to save money.
They were not isolated and frequently went to town, visited relatives, etc.

I agree, it isn't the same thing, which is why some of the cultists walked out of the compound and gave themselves up during the seige. But the mental control games were still there.

You don't seem to understand law.
The BATF has no authority to get child protection services to create warrant.
That would be third hand testimony, and totally illegal.
And the BATF did not need child protection services to get Koresh arrested the day before the raid, in town.
If they had any evidence, they could have presented it to judge themselves.
But they didn't because they had NO evidence.
The Davidians had broken no law.

Except if you read the warrent, it was clear they did.

As far as the inclusion of proof that the BD's were molesting children, you claimed these things were made up after the fact. The affadavitt shows that CPS and BATF made these claims before the raid.

Do you actually believe that with all these guns there, that parents would just sit by while Koresh whipped 8 month old babies and had sex with their 12 year old daughters?
That's crazy.
It never happened, and there is no first hand testimony in any court that it did happen.

Yes, I believe that would happen... cults tend to make people a little crazy. Read up on the early history of Mormonism some time.