Who Did Trump Intend to Defraud when he Allegedly Falsified Business Records?

[para bellum]

LOL

You say that as though that matters. It doesn't. All that matters is his intent.

It matters if falsification of records is the charge. It requires "intent to defraud", which means the records were made for the purpose of deceiving someone. The "voters of New York" do not rely on those records to enforce any laws of the State.

And influencing voters is perfectly fine; with an exception. That exception being required to switch from perfectly fine ... to ... criminal...

§ 17-152. Conspiracy to promote or prevent election. Any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more of the parties thereto, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.​

That's what Trump and Cohen did. They conspired how to pay. Those payments were illegal. Thst's the "unlawful means" to influence the election.

That is an allegation that is the exclusive jurisdiction of the FEC to determine. Trump was investigated and no charges were brought.

In fact, that law is not even applicable to a federal election. The preemption clause of the FECA gives exclusive jurisdiction to the FEC on all election law that involves a federal office. 52 USC 30143:

§30143. State laws affected​

(a) In general​

Subject to subsection (b), the provisions of this Act, and of rules prescribed under this Act, supersede and preempt any provision of State law with respect to election to Federal office.

(b) State and local committees of political parties​

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, a State or local committee of a political party may, subject to State law, use exclusively funds that are not subject to the prohibitions, limitations, and reporting requirements of the Act for the purchase or construction of an office building for such State or local committee.

Bragg is charging Trump with a crime he didn't commit, and elevating it to a felony by claiming he broke another law that doesn't apply to federal elections...

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Irrelevant. That is FEC jurisdiction and they chose to dismiss the complaint.

Absolutely wrong, and the trial absolutely right. Trump broke campaign finance laws and is going to be convicted of it then lose the appeal very quickly.

 

[para bellum]

Absolutely wrong, and the trial absolutely right. Trump broke campaign finance laws and is going to be convicted of it then lose the appeal very quickly.

Trump was not charged with breaking any campaign finance laws by the only authority with jurisdiction, and cannot be charged with it in a State court.

The appeals court has no choice but to reverse any conviction that relies on Trump breaking any campaign finance law.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The New York law Trump is on trial for violating:

View attachment 943987

https://nycourts.gov/judges/cji/2-PenalLaw/175/175.10.pdf

View attachment 943988

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1158/236829/20220902124059970_3835_001.pdf

Well? Who did Trump specifically intend to deceive and deprive when he allegedly called money he paid his lawyer "legal fees?" Who was the "another?"

Cool sealion thread!

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Trump trial: Jury hears secret recording of Trump discussing catch-and-kill payment​

This is just so much more bad news for Trump.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[WorldWatcher]

Trump was not charged with breaking any campaign finance laws by the only authority with jurisdiction, and cannot be charged with it in a State court.

The appeals court has no choice but to reverse any conviction that relies on Trump breaking any campaign finance law.

Trump isn't being charged with Federals campaign law finance violations. So that won't be a problem.

He's being charged with felonious falsification of business records for the Trump Organization with the enhancement coming from the Federal campaign law violations committed by Michael Cohen who was charged and convicted.

WW

 

[Dante]

Simply making an incorrect entry does not constitute intent to defraud.

And the state does not see it as an incorrect entry

next

 

[Dante]

The question is: "name that agency". Bonus points if you can tell us what law they were frustrated to enforce...

People here at usmb and elsewhere have been arguing over and over again "what other crime?" -- yet when the other crime is mentioned they've ignored it completely. But in the courtroom the facts can't so easily be ignored. The jury is being reminded by the prosecution team over and over again, that records were doctored to further or conceal another crime - , an effort to illegally influence the 2016 election.

Alan Feuer
Reporting on Trump’s criminal trial

Just a reminder about the structure of the charges in this case: Trump has been indicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records related to reimbursing Cohen for the hush-money payment to Stormy Daniels. Those misdemeanor charges can be bumped up to felonies...

if the jury believes the records were doctored to further or conceal another crime —

in this instance, an effort to illegally influence the 2016 election.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/13/nyregion/trump-trial-michael-cohen

Trump's misdemeanor charges can be bumped up to felonies...if the jury believes

People here at usmb and elsewhere have been arguing over and over again "what other crime?" -- yet when the other crime is mentioned they've ignored it completely. But in the courtroom the facts can't so easily be ignored. The jury is being reminded by the prosecution team over and over again...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Faun]

Irrelevant. That is FEC jurisdiction and they chose to dismiss the complaint.

Irrelevant since Cohen was convicted and incarcerated over it. Clearly a crime.

 

[para bellum]

Trump isn't being charged with Federals campaign law finance violations. So that won't be a problem.

He's being charged with felonious falsification of business records for the Trump Organization with the enhancement coming from the Federal campaign law violations committed by Michael Cohen who was charged and convicted.

WW

No, the enhancement is a conspiracy to promote an election using unlawful means, and Trump was never convicted for Cohen's violation.

And the conspiracy law is not applicable to a federal election.

 

[WorldWatcher]

No, the enhancement is a conspiracy to promote an election using unlawful means, and Trump was never convicted for Cohen's violation.

Trump doesn't have to be convicted of the enhancement crime. The state has sto show that the felonious falsification of business records was to hide another crime. There is a difference.

And the conspiracy law is not applicable to a federal election.

Of course the enhancement based on committing federal crimes applies. If someone told you different (and yes I saw your previous post), then don't believe them. If what you posted was true, the defense would have filed the monition pre-trial and we wouldn't be here today.

WW

 

[para bellum]

Irrelevant since Cohen was convicted and incarcerated over it. Clearly a crime.

So what? That was Cohen's crime, not Trump's.

Guilt by association is not how it works in this country.

The conspiracy law does not apply to federal elections. The federal preemption is absolute. The only laws a State can pass with respect to a federal election are the "times, places, and manner" of the election.

 

[Faun]

It matters if falsification of records is the charge. It requires "intent to defraud", which means the records were made for the purpose of deceiving someone. The "voters of New York" do not rely on those records to enforce any laws of the State.

That is an allegation that is the exclusive jurisdiction of the FEC to determine. Trump was investigated and no charges were brought.

In fact, that law is not even applicable to a federal election. The preemption clause of the FECA gives exclusive jurisdiction to the FEC on all election law that involves a federal office. 52 USC 30143:

§30143. State laws affected​

(a) In general​

Subject to subsection (b), the provisions of this Act, and of rules prescribed under this Act, supersede and preempt any provision of State law with respect to election to Federal office.

(b) State and local committees of political parties​

Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, a State or local committee of a political party may, subject to State law, use exclusively funds that are not subject to the prohibitions, limitations, and reporting requirements of the Act for the purchase or construction of an office building for such State or local committee.

Bragg is charging Trump with a crime he didn't commit, and elevating it to a felony by claiming he broke another law that doesn't apply to federal elections...

His intent was to influence voters. That's on the underlying charge. Falsifying records was an intent to conceal that underlying crime. That was intent to defraud the state.

Bragg is charging Trump with a crime he didn't commit, and elevating it to a felony by claiming he broke another law that doesn't apply to federal elections...

Trump absolutely committed that crime by listing an illegal campaign contribution as "legal services."

 

[EvilCat Breath]

To aid or conceal the commission of another crime.... Is in this law as well, and that is the section of the law prosecutors seems to be going after...

What is the other crime? The best legal minds in the nation can't find one.

 

[Dante]

Trump was never convicted for Cohen's violation.

Who is claiming he has?

Can you provide a link as proof?

Can you give up straw men for even one day?

 

[para bellum]

If what you posted was true, the defense would have filed the monition pre-trial and we wouldn't be here today.

Oh, the defense did file the motion, and the judge of course denied it like every other defense motion. It will be up to the appeals court to rule on the law.

 

[Dante]

His intent was to influence voters. That's on the underlying charge. Falsifying records was an intent to conceal that underlying crime. That was intent to defraud the state.

 

[justoffal]

The New York law Trump is on trial for violating:

View attachment 943987

https://nycourts.gov/judges/cji/2-PenalLaw/175/175.10.pdf

View attachment 943988

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1158/236829/20220902124059970_3835_001.pdf

Well? Who did Trump specifically intend to deceive and deprive when he allegedly called money he paid his lawyer "legal fees?" Who was the "another?"

Probably his wife?

 

[Faun]

Trump was not charged with breaking any campaign finance laws by the only authority with jurisdiction, and cannot be charged with it in a State court.

The appeals court has no choice but to reverse any conviction that relies on Trump breaking any campaign finance law.

Nope. It's not about Trump breaking campaign finance laws. He's not charged with that. That's not the subject of the underlying charge.

 

[Faun]

Trump trial: Jury hears secret recording of Trump discussing catch-and-kill payment​

This is just so much more bad news for Trump.

MSN

www.msn.com

Which exposes his lie to the jury that he wasn't aware of the payment.