CDZ White Nationalism; what it is, what drives it and how to render it harmless

[Dogmaphobe]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

 

[OldLady]

Isn't that more a factor of "grading on the curve" than discrimination? I understand what you mean, but if Asian Americans and Jews consistently score higher than their non-Asian/Jewish peers, a college is going to take that into account to get the "cream of the crop," if that's what they're aiming for. If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

And you are left with whtie and blck and Hispanic kids who feel as though they are not equal to Jewish and Asian kids and that can breed distrust.

Why not let the chips fall where they may and simply take the best and brightest whether that means few nonJewish whites get in or not?

Because. Going to college is the door not only for you but for your kids and grandkids to get out of poverty. It is to disrupt the cycle of poverty.

 

[OldLady]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

 

[Dogmaphobe]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

 

[OldLady]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

No, grading on a curve is an academic average. If some races do better than others, it makes perfect sense to take that into consideration. I got into my college probably due to "identity politics" in 1989 because I was older than the average college student. There were very few of us at that particular very competitive school. But once I got there I still had to do the work, no gimmes. Did a very bright young senior not get into my college because I did? Yes, but he/she no doubt went to school just as good.

 

[FA_Q2]

What you say is true - and it is true regardless of race. AA attempts to break the cycle for a specific group of people while ignoring those that do not fit the proper mold. Even though those people that are in similar poverty stricken situations face very similar challenges.
Again, trying to solve a perceived problem of racism with an openly racist policy.

We have an excellent program here, have had for decades, helping kids be the first in their families to go to college. The programs are growing, now including funds and all kinds of supports for single parents who want to go on to post secondary training. Around here, we're 97% white, so I can't agree that the government is somehow ignoring poor white people.

You are missing the point. It is not that no white people are being helped, but that AA is engaging in racism by prioritizing minorities by law above the interests of whites by using quotas, which is discriminatory and unjust.

Your counter-point that whites are still getting help is beside that point.

Why is it beside the point, Jim? Weren't you arguing yesterday that it would be fair if there were quotas for whites, as well?
Actually, I've tried my hardest to see this from your point of view, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that AA is an attempt at an economic equalizer and OF COURSE it's working. So the complaints that it is discriminatory against whites seems irrelevant. Whites don't have a whole lot to complain about, imo. If you want to rid the country of a perpetual underclass suffering from economic disenfranchisement, it is going to take AA.

I do not see where it is working. The data certainly does not flush that out from what I see.

My issue, though, really is not that it is discriminatory to whites though it clearly is. My issue is that it codifies and perpetuates racism. You will never reduce racism by instituting racism in the opposite direction. You will only succeed at solidifying racism and trying to cover it up.

 

[FA_Q2]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

No, grading on a curve is an academic average. If some races do better than others, it makes perfect sense to take that into consideration. I got into my college probably due to "identity politics" in 1989 because I was older than the average college student. There were very few of us at that particular very competitive school. But once I got there I still had to do the work, no gimmes. Did a very bright young senior not get into my college because I did? Yes, but he/she no doubt went to school just as good.

No it does not. Colleges are not looking for the best of the best of certain races - they are looking for the best people period.

What you are doing here is dragging race into an issue or idea that does not have it in the first place. We need to remember the goal here and such a goal is not that the differing races of people are about economically even. It is that one day a person can be judged by the character of their person and not the color of their skin. What we have now is not only judging a person by the color of their skin but a LEGAL REQUIREMENT to do so. The very idea is nonsensical to the goal.

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
MLK

The same can be said of racism.

 

[OldLady]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

No, grading on a curve is an academic average. If some races do better than others, it makes perfect sense to take that into consideration. I got into my college probably due to "identity politics" in 1989 because I was older than the average college student. There were very few of us at that particular very competitive school. But once I got there I still had to do the work, no gimmes. Did a very bright young senior not get into my college because I did? Yes, but he/she no doubt went to school just as good.

No it does not. Colleges are not looking for the best of the best of certain races - they are looking for the best people period.

What you are doing here is dragging race into an issue or idea that does not have it in the first place. We need to remember the goal here and such a goal is not that the differing races of people are about economically even. It is that one day a person can be judged by the character of their person and not the color of their skin. What we have now is not only judging a person by the color of their skin but a LEGAL REQUIREMENT to do so. The very idea is nonsensical to the goal.

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
MLK

The same can be said of racism.

I don't see it that way. The idea of AA IS to identify people by race, yes, in order to give a boost up to a group or groups that have been left in the dust too long. I don't know how old you are, but in my lifetime, the push including anti-discrimination legislation and AA have certainly changed the middle class in America to one with more than just a white face. That is good. We have just weathered a recession, and no one's doing so hot except that super rich. But this wish to equalize the playing field is a good thing, in my opinion. It is certainly not meant to engender violence or hate, as your quote suggests.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

No, grading on a curve is an academic average. If some races do better than others, it makes perfect sense to take that into consideration. I got into my college probably due to "identity politics" in 1989 because I was older than the average college student. There were very few of us at that particular very competitive school. But once I got there I still had to do the work, no gimmes. Did a very bright young senior not get into my college because I did? Yes, but he/she no doubt went to school just as good.

It only makes sense to avowed racists.

 

[Asclepias]

Isn't that more a factor of "grading on the curve" than discrimination? I understand what you mean, but if Asian Americans and Jews consistently score higher than their non-Asian/Jewish peers, a college is going to take that into account to get the "cream of the crop," if that's what they're aiming for. If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

And you are left with whtie and blck and Hispanic kids who feel as though they are not equal to Jewish and Asian kids and that can breed distrust.

Why not let the chips fall where they may and simply take the best and brightest whether that means few nonJewish whites get in or not?

Because. Going to college is the door not only for you but for your kids and grandkids to get out of poverty. It is to disrupt the cycle of poverty.

That doesnt make sense to some people. They think its ok for the effects of racism in the past to be amplified and multiplied with the racist views of today. They dont care a bit that they had a large head start. They just want to keep their competition behind them.

 

[Asclepias]

 

[Dogmaphobe]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

No, grading on a curve is an academic average. If some races do better than others, it makes perfect sense to take that into consideration. I got into my college probably due to "identity politics" in 1989 because I was older than the average college student. There were very few of us at that particular very competitive school. But once I got there I still had to do the work, no gimmes. Did a very bright young senior not get into my college because I did? Yes, but he/she no doubt went to school just as good.

So, in other words -- you could not compete on a level playing field and don't give a shit that Asian students had to be handicapped to accommodate you.

I guess if this thread is proving anything, it isn't that the extremely tiny percentage of nut job right-wing white supremacists who are the real problem when it comes to these matters.

 

[Asclepias]

If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

Only if you are racist against Asians.

Those who are not racist simply look at the scores without applying such a racist overlay to them.

Do you know what I'm talking about when I say "grading on the curve?"

Grading on a racial curve is racist.

I realize the dictates of identity politics demands it, but if you were to stop seeing people in terms of racial identity and start seeing them simply as people, you would see how racist it is to discriminate against some in order to give others special privilege.

The problem with your logic is that just because they are people that doesnt mean whites should get a head start but others don't. If whites are allowed to have 200 - 400 years of unfettered white AA then Blacks are entitled to the same 200 - 400 years. We wont need it but fair is fair.

 

[Coyote]

I think programs like AA were necessary because there wasn't a level playing field, whether race or gender. You could be the brightest most capable woman in 1949, but you still couldn't get admitted to certain programs. My mother experienced this, and so did my Aunt who got her PHD in Chemistry in a school that heavily discouraged and she had to fight to get admitted to. Schools can pick and choose who to take, and they don't necessarily take the best or "most qualified" and that is not due to affirmative action. They take "legacy" admissions, they base admissions on essays, resumes, prior schools every bit as much as they do SAT's/GRE's and GPA's.

There is also value in diversity and schools recognize that and their selection process is influenced by that. Is that "affirmative action"? Not necessarily, it can be choice. Now personally, I don't think there is a need for AA programs anymore. There WAS a need, absolutely, but not at this point.

 

[sakinago]

What you say is true - and it is true regardless of race. AA attempts to break the cycle for a specific group of people while ignoring those that do not fit the proper mold. Even though those people that are in similar poverty stricken situations face very similar challenges.
Again, trying to solve a perceived problem of racism with an openly racist policy.

We have an excellent program here, have had for decades, helping kids be the first in their families to go to college. The programs are growing, now including funds and all kinds of supports for single parents who want to go on to post secondary training. Around here, we're 97% white, so I can't agree that the government is somehow ignoring poor white people.

You are missing the point. It is not that no white people are being helped, but that AA is engaging in racism by prioritizing minorities by law above the interests of whites by using quotas, which is discriminatory and unjust.

Your counter-point that whites are still getting help is beside that point.

Why is it beside the point, Jim? Weren't you arguing yesterday that it would be fair if their were quotas for whites, as well?
Actually, I've tried my hardest to see this from your point of view, but I keep getting stuck on the fact that AA is an attempt at an economic equalizer and OF COURSE it's working. So the complaints that it is discriminatory against whites seems irrelevant. Whites don't have a whole lot to complain about, imo. If you want to rid the country of a perpetual underclass suffering from economic disenfranchisement, it is going to take AA.

Working for AA, but hurting other minorities like Asian Americans. Asian Americans as well as Jews on average have a higher IQ by around 15 points than white people (not trying to sound like I'm a master race here) just stating facts. We also tend to preform better scholastically than whites. Because of quotas, we have to greatly out preform whites blacks and hispanics to get into good competitive schools. Especially since those schools quota spots are being filled by a lot of native pacific asians who are the best of the best from their countries. Perfect example of orwells all the creatures on the farm are equal, some are just more equal than others.

Isn't that more a factor of "grading on the curve" than discrimination? I understand what you mean, but if Asian Americans and Jews consistently score higher than their non-Asian/Jewish peers, a college is going to take that into account to get the "cream of the crop," if that's what they're aiming for. If 1500 is high for white kids but only average for Asian kids, to get the brightest Asian kids you'll need to look to higher scores, right?

You're leaving out the part where there grading the curve based on skin color...affirmative action is a anti discrimination law based on discrimination. Whatever happened to not by the color of my skin but the contents of my character?

 

[JimBowie1958]