Where should the line be drawn on abortion?

[WillowTree]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Three years ago, my wife happily announced she was pregnant...and I was furious. It was not something I wanted at this point. I have grandkids for christs sake!

But nine weeks in we went for an ultrasound. I had never actually seen anything in any previous ultrasounds I saw...just some glob on the screen that the nurse would excitedly announce was my child...whatever...its a glob of nothing....

But this time, there was a glob with arms and legs waving wikldy like it was going LOOK HERE I AM! SEE ME?!?!?!

And I knew THAT was my child.

My wife and I were not getting along because I had felt I had been dragged into a life changing situation that would last well into my final working years ...so much for travel and peace and quiet...

But I turned to her right then and said," Im in."

And that was that.

Now my daughter is 26 month old and the very best thing that ever happened to me.

Sure her niece is a year older than her but hey, life is strange.

At 9 weeks I saw arms and legs and saw a person. For others it might be different.

So the answer is this:

I dont know.

You sound just like the dad in Father of the Bride Part Two. Congratulations on your beautiful little daughter.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I agree. I believe elective abortions should be illegal (not ones that are medically necessary for a variety of reasons, but simple elective ones) at the point of viability of a preemie. I believe that is currently around 24 weeks.

So, elective abortions up to that point should be ok.

Now, as technology improves, that time of gestation to viability might change and the law should change accordingly.

That's the way I see it.

And, on elective abortions, I am against those being paid for using government monies.

Which shouldn’t be a problem as that’s been the law for over three decades.

Fortunately and wisely the courts have left the issue of ‘when life begins’ to philosophers, ethicists, religious entities, and private individuals – and it should remain that way.

Women have been having abortions for thousands of years before Roe and will continue to do so regardless its legal status. Indeed, ‘banning’ abortion is no solution at all.

Whatever the solution to abortion, it may not be offensive to the Constitution, as the right to privacy is fundamental, and must never be violated by the state:

If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child.

Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)

 

[Gem]

I, personally, believe that the moment conception occurs a human life has "begun." Life is a continuum that must begin and end somewhere. It seems logical to me that life does not start in any other spontaneous way but sperm uniting with egg. That zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, child, etc., is human life in one of its many stages along the continuum.

So for me...I find it very disingenuous to hear people claim that an abortion is NOT ending a life. Of course it is. If left to its own devices it would continue through the cycle of human development - just like an infant will become a teenager. When we abort that fetus were are killing it. Plain and simple.

Now...that being said, simply for the sake of open, honest dialogue...I also think that abortion is a procedure that has been around for centuries in one for or another and is not going away. We should strive to make it safe, legal, and rare.

With that in mind, I think that abortion should be legal for any reason during the first trimester - because it is an easily measurable early state of the pregnancy. I include rape in this timeline. I believe that if we, as women, are serious about claiming to want to be responsible for our own bodies...then we should be responsible enough to a) find out if we are pregnant within 3 months of having sex and b) deciding whether or not to continue with that pregnancy. After that, I do not think that women should be able to end a pregnancy for reasons aside from those discussed below.

I support legal abortion in the cases of incest up until the point that the child could be viable outside the womb (22 weeks currently?) and cases where the LIFE of the mother is at stake until 22 weeks as well, unless its a medical situation where it literally is kill the viable child or kill the mother...I'm sure that is VERY rare.

So...simply put - 1st trimester except in cases of incest (because the medical community might not become aware of these pregnancies until further along) or life of mother...then approximately 22 weeks.

 

[Dr Grump]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

I agree. I believe elective abortions should be illegal (not ones that are medically necessary for a variety of reasons, but simple elective ones) at the point of viability of a preemie. I believe that is currently around 24 weeks.

So, elective abortions up to that point should be ok.

Now, as technology improves, that time of gestation to viability might change and the law should change accordingly.

That's the way I see it.

And, on elective abortions, I am against those being paid for using government monies.

I disagree. First trimester...second and third if mother's life in danger.

Result of rape? Any time the person carrying the foetus decides...

 

[koshergrl]

The problem with abortion in the case of rape and incest is that #1, it gives rapists an "out". Victims of incest and abortion are coerced into abortion all the time, and/or abortion is used to hide the crime.

And #2, it will result in women claiming they have been raped in order to obtain convenience abortions.

 

[Dr Grump]

The problem with abortion in the case of rape and incest is that #1, it gives rapists an "out". Victims of incest and abortion are coerced into abortion all the time, and/or abortion is used to hide the crime.

And #2, it will result in women claiming they have been raped in order to obtain convenience abortions.

Couldn't care less about the rapist getting an out. It's not about the rapist.
Woman shouldn't need an excuse or a claim about anything. If they want one they should get one. Personally, I think it is a bad decision on their part (not if they have been raped, but in general), but it is their decision.

 

[Vidi]

I, personally, believe that the moment conception occurs a human life has "begun." Life is a continuum that must begin and end somewhere. It seems logical to me that life does not start in any other spontaneous way but sperm uniting with egg. That zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, child, etc., is human life in one of its many stages along the continuum.

So for me...I find it very disingenuous to hear people claim that an abortion is NOT ending a life. Of course it is. If left to its own devices it would continue through the cycle of human development - just like an infant will become a teenager. When we abort that fetus were are killing it. Plain and simple.

Now...that being said, simply for the sake of open, honest dialogue...I also think that abortion is a procedure that has been around for centuries in one for or another and is not going away. We should strive to make it safe, legal, and rare.

With that in mind, I think that abortion should be legal for any reason during the first trimester - because it is an easily measurable early state of the pregnancy. I include rape in this timeline. I believe that if we, as women, are serious about claiming to want to be responsible for our own bodies...then we should be responsible enough to a) find out if we are pregnant within 3 months of having sex and b) deciding whether or not to continue with that pregnancy. After that, I do not think that women should be able to end a pregnancy for reasons aside from those discussed below.

I support legal abortion in the cases of incest up until the point that the child could be viable outside the womb (22 weeks currently?) and cases where the LIFE of the mother is at stake until 22 weeks as well, unless its a medical situation where it literally is kill the viable child or kill the mother...I'm sure that is VERY rare.

So...simply put - 1st trimester except in cases of incest (because the medical community might not become aware of these pregnancies until further along) or life of mother...then approximately 22 weeks.

The problem then is when is conception?

Some say egg feritlization. If thats conception then all forms of hormonal birth control are actually abortions.

Implantation into the uterus wall?

When?

My point is that the abortion debate is a never ending argument with abslutely no way to solve it...

OH WAIT! YES THERE IS!

Artificial WOMBS!

Dont want the babay? No problem! We'll remove it place it in the articial womb and 9 months later, a brand new baby tready for adoption!



ok back to reality,

its a never ending debate wuith no real solution. Its the perfect political wedge.

 

[Steelplate]

I'm a first trimester guy....although many of you have said 16-20 weeks, which puts it into the early-mid 2nd trimester. Which, I would be amenable to, if it would end the debate...but overall, I think three months is plenty of time to decide...even if one doesn't realize they are pregnant until the second(missed period) month...that's two months....60 days to make a decision.

If the mother's life is in danger? Then there should be no limit....it should be up to the mother. If she wants to be the martyr so that the child lives? That's an incredible act of love and bravery.

But I think about my wife and how much I love her....I would honor that act of love if it were her choice.....But I think of life without her, and I would prefer that she would end the pregnancy and we try again....this is all hypothetical of course, as my wife had cervical cancer and had to have a partial hysterectomy....so we will never have children together....of course....at 47 and 49? I'm just as glad.....I love her kids as if they were my own.

edit: I need to make paragraphs....which I'll do with this edit...damn this kindle fire...

 

[Gem]

The problem then is when is conception?

Some say egg feritlization. If thats conception then all forms of hormonal birth control are actually abortions.

Implantation into the uterus wall?

When?

My point is that the abortion debate is a never ending argument with abslutely no way to solve it...

OH WAIT! YES THERE IS!

Artificial WOMBS!

Dont want the babay? No problem! We'll remove it place it in the articial womb and 9 months later, a brand new baby tready for adoption!



ok back to reality,

its a never ending debate wuith no real solution. Its the perfect political wedge.

Actually, since I'm arguing for legal abortion throughout the first trimester, your point really has no teeth. It doesn't matter whether your opinion of when conception occurs differs from someone elses if they are legally allowed to abort their child during the first three months of their pregnancy.

Will you never be able to "win" this argument with everyone? Of course. Some will argue that birth control pills are a form of abortion. Some will argue that parents should legally be able to murder their toddlers. We have never truly believed that the extremes would win this debate - we are trying to find the most reasonable middle ground.

As I stated before - while I believe that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception...I believe that our nation has a vested interest (because of a woman's right to her body, because of rape, incest, etc., because of the inherent danger of illegal abortion) in protecting legal abortion during the 1st trimester, and in cases of rape, incest, and life of mother.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Your life's timeline began at conception.. any real debate on that?

 

[Gem]

Is there another starting point that makes as much sense? It seems to me that before conception there were components of life - sperm, egg. After conception, there was a growing, developing lifeform that, if left alone and if all goes according to plan, will develop into a zygote, embryo, fetus, newborn, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, teen, young adult, adult, senior, etc.

This is not a religiously-based argument. I am perfectly willing to consider alternatives. It just has always seemed most logical to me that we have to consider "where it all begins." A sperm alone will never spontaneously begin to develop into a human. Neither will an egg. A 22-week old "fetus" may be viable outside of the womb for the first time...but its been growing and developing for 22 weeks...it didn't just appear there. So - are we really intellectually honest if we say that at 21 1/2 weeks it "wasn't human," but at 22 weeks it was?

Come on...lets get real. Its always a human in its earliest stages of human development...we just don't like talking about it because the next step in honest dialogue is "At what stage of human development do we stop being ok with killing a human for our own personal convenience?"

Please note for full disclosure: I support abortion during the 1st trimester.

 

[bobcollum]

Your life's timeline began at conception.. any real debate on that?

Yes.

 

[Jackson]

Your life's timeline began at conception.. any real debate on that?

Of course not. We all know how to avoid a pregnancy or a new life, so we all know when life begins.

 

[Jackson]

No, you are not in the books until you are born.
XXXXXX.

I have fetal pics of all my grandchildren.

 

[Gem]

Moonglow Wrote:

XXXXXX.

Maybe not in yours.

But seriously...I have a picture of my son's 8-week, 12-week, and 20-week sonograms in our photo album. They are photographs of my first child, in his earliest stages of development. He was a human being. He had/has a different blood-type than me, he had/has different DNA. At 8-weeks old and earlier, he was NOT part of my body...he was a growing organism residing in my body.

 

[Moonglow]

Your life's timeline began at conception.. any real debate on that?

Of course not. We all know how to avoid a pregnancy or a new life, so we all know when life begins.

Even the Bible sates that until Adam had air blown through his nostrils he was not alive. Same with the multi-miliinea observation that life begins at birth when the child has the first blast of oxygen in it's lungs.

 

[Moonglow]

Moonglow Wrote:

Notice no pics in the family album with Mom and Dad knocking boots.

Maybe not in yours.

But seriously...I have a picture of my son's 8-week, 12-week, and 20-week sonograms in our photo album. They are photographs of my first child, in his earliest stages of development. He was a human being. He had/has a different blood-type than me, he had/has different DNA. At 8-weeks old and earlier, he was NOT part of my body...he was a growing organism residing in my body.

That I do not doubt. I too have the pics in my album.
I have only the issue of the OP to debate. I don't use abortion and never will. i keep what is mine and raise it well.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Is there another starting point that makes as much sense? It seems to me that before conception there were components of life - sperm, egg. After conception, there was a growing, developing lifeform that, if left alone and if all goes according to plan, will develop into a zygote, embryo, fetus, newborn, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, teen, young adult, adult, senior, etc.

This is not a religiously-based argument. I am perfectly willing to consider alternatives. It just has always seemed most logical to me that we have to consider "where it all begins." A sperm alone will never spontaneously begin to develop into a human. Neither will an egg. A 22-week old "fetus" may be viable outside of the womb for the first time...but its been growing and developing for 22 weeks...it didn't just appear there. So - are we really intellectually honest if we say that at 21 1/2 weeks it "wasn't human," but at 22 weeks it was?

Come on...lets get real. Its always a human in its earliest stages of human development...we just don't like talking about it because the next step in honest dialogue is "At what stage of human development do we stop being ok with killing a human for our own personal convenience?"

Please note for full disclosure: I support abortion during the 1st trimester.

Excellent and reasonable response...how refreshing...

I do have those gray areas in the first trimester rape, incest or when the actual life of the mother is threatened. I don't feel comfortable with all in gray areas but ...eh.

 

[jillian]

I understand full well that nothing pulls extremist automatons from all sides out of the woodwork faster than an abortion thread, but since we now have a clean debate forum I'm going to try anyway.

I ask that if you wish to participate in this debate you first concede the following two points:

1) Aborting a fetus within a week of conception is not murdering a child.

2) Aborting a fetus after 8 months of gestation, that could survive outside the womb, is murdering a child.

The debate I'm interested in is where between point 1 and point 2 should that line be drawn? At what point in the pregnancy has the mother forfeited the right to 'choose' so to speak?

Prior to 20 weeks gestation, abortion is not murder; after 24 weeks, abortion should be illegal. 20-24 weeks is a gray area for me. At 24 weeks, most fetuses can survive outside the womb with medical intervention, and at that point, I think the fetus's budding personhood trumps the mother's right to avoid being inconvenienced or harmed by the pregnancy.

i would think you'd have an exception for the life of the mother, yes?

i also don't see having to deal with genetic or birth defects as being "inconvenienced". i see it as a personal choice about the quality of one's life and the quality of what one wishes to pass on to a child. so i'm not sure where that leaves the debate.

 

[Jackson]

Psalm 139:15-24 (Good News Translation)

15 When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother's womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there - 16 you saw me before I was born.