Where is the welfare algorithm

Shrimpbox

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As many of the threads here and in the political forum show, debate over different welfare programs(food stamps, min wage, unemployment) seem to lack definition. Stereotypes on both sides are constantly presented and generic arguments are repeated ad naseum. But no one offers up any kind of formula to separate the needy from the greedy, and as a conservative it seems like the argument always devolves to our detriment. This will be an issue in the upcoming elections and republicans better be able to address it head on or proactively.
Conservatives aren't heartless but they are also not fools, especially if they live and work in the real world, and the fraud and corruption in the welfare system is gargantuan and it remains also undefined because the powers that be have no interest in curtailing the welfare system. Let's just say for the sake of argument that 30 percent of welfare payments of all kind are fraudulent. If that thirty was cleaned up we could afford to have all the assistance that is in place now operating in the black and in general with the support of both parties, so this could be a win win situation, the truly needy would be served and the budget would not be busted.
I am upset about this issue because of what I see happening in my own town. I live in one of the poorest counties in fl, and it does not take a heap of money to get by here. Food stamps are ubiquitous . wic, free health care, a ton of money returned at tax time, and Medicaid out the wazoo. In the most flagrant of welfare scams we have a drunk getting disability and back pay because she is a drunk, a drug addict getting disability for being a drug addict, a fat girl getting disability because she is fat, and a healthy 20year old male,father of one child getting disability because he doesn't get along in social situations very well. I know all these people and all of them could work and we're working before they got disability. In short, bad behavior is being rewarded. Like in the rest of the country there are some deserving of govt programs and a whole lot scamming the system.
If google and Facebook and others can compile encyclopedias of private info on all of us, why can't the govt apply similar technology to the welfare problem or in good free enterprise terms why can't it farm out these tasks to the private sector.(please no obamacare website comparisons). We need some definition of what needy is, some regional apps for the level of need in different parts of the country, welfare histories of those who are chronically on assistance programs, and assessments of the level of success of assistance programs. It is not uncaring to want to get the most bang for the buck, and it is not heartless to want the most needy to get the lions share of benefits.
While this is something I encourage republican to tackle, addressing this problem would benefit the whole country and unite us, but you must have some metrics to begin to define the problem.
 

zeke

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As many of the threads here and in the political forum show, debate over different welfare programs(food stamps, min wage, unemployment) seem to lack definition. Stereotypes on both sides are constantly presented and generic arguments are repeated ad naseum. But no one offers up any kind of formula to separate the needy from the greedy, and as a conservative it seems like the argument always devolves to our detriment. This will be an issue in the upcoming elections and republicans better be able to address it head on or proactively.
Conservatives aren't heartless but they are also not fools, especially if they live and work in the real world, and the fraud and corruption in the welfare system is gargantuan and it remains also undefined because the powers that be have no interest in curtailing the welfare system. Let's just say for the sake of argument that 30 percent of welfare payments of all kind are fraudulent. If that thirty was cleaned up we could afford to have all the assistance that is in place now operating in the black and in general with the support of both parties, so this could be a win win situation, the truly needy would be served and the budget would not be busted.
I am upset about this issue because of what I see happening in my own town. I live in one of the poorest counties in fl, and it does not take a heap of money to get by here. Food stamps are ubiquitous . wic, free health care, a ton of money returned at tax time, and Medicaid out the wazoo. In the most flagrant of welfare scams we have a drunk getting disability and back pay because she is a drunk, a drug addict getting disability for being a drug addict, a fat girl getting disability because she is fat, and a healthy 20year old male,father of one child getting disability because he doesn't get along in social situations very well. I know all these people and all of them could work and we're working before they got disability. In short, bad behavior is being rewarded. Like in the rest of the country there are some deserving of govt programs and a whole lot scamming the system.
If google and Facebook and others can compile encyclopedias of private info on all of us, why can't the govt apply similar technology to the welfare problem or in good free enterprise terms why can't it farm out these tasks to the private sector.(please no obamacare website comparisons). We need some definition of what needy is, some regional apps for the level of need in different parts of the country, welfare histories of those who are chronically on assistance programs, and assessments of the level of success of assistance programs. It is not uncaring to want to get the most bang for the buck, and it is not heartless to want the most needy to get the lions share of benefits.
While this is something I encourage republican to tackle, addressing this problem would benefit the whole country and unite us, but you must have some metrics to begin to define the problem.

Seems like the place to start would be with a real number for the amount of fraud. 30% is way to high IMO. Got a link?
 
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Shrimpbox

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Fair enough. I do not have a link but I think I can state that both food stamp and disability recipients have increased by more than that during obamas term and that both those categories are not decreasing as the economy gets better. Fraud also includes selling food stamps for cash, receiving more than you are qualified for, lying about living alone, and failure to alert authorities when you have found a job. A recent story about one address in Atlanta receiving millions in food stamps I believe is the tip of the iceberg. I will try to reference that story but my cut and pasting skills are about nonexistent.
 

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I don't know that unemployment can be defined as a welfare type of payment. Employers carry unemployment insurance to cover their cost of providing unemployment compensation to people who are fired, laid off, or whatever reason they become unemployed. These checks come from the state and recipients have to pay income tax on those funds. The employers will fight to prevent unemployment payments being made, but they don't always win. I can tell you my former employer lost on every count for all the people who were fired around the time I was fired - everyone was over the age of 40 (age discrimination) and in a few cases violations of other labor & employment laws. We were all replaced by cute little 20-somethings in short skirts and low cut sweaters. There were EEOC actions and lawsuits filed against our former employer and they lost AND they got a shitload of bad publicity locally as well as nationally via an internet site for law firms.

But, LIKE ANY INSURANCE, which most people don't understand, when they get a whole lot of claims (aka "claims experience") you can be sure your premiums are going to increase at renewal dates. This goes for unemployment, workers compensation, employer healthcare or individual healthcare, car insurance, etc. Excessive claims = higher premiums.

As for welfare, food stamps, WIC, etc. maybe we should step back in time to when there were limitations on what could be purchased with food stamps. Perhaps we should limit sodas and other sugary items, snack foods, pre-fab foods, etc. - might help ease up on the problem of obesity as well as creating a situation where the allowable food is a lot more healthy than what I'm seeing in checkout lines. And somebody might even learn to cook something.

Welfare fraud is just out of sight, as is Medicare fraud and fraud in other government run programs. I think one way to ease up the situation would be to limit the number of children welfare recipients have. I don't mean by sterilization, but rather on the number of children. Maybe there could be a limit of three children and the choice of having more children with no raises in welfare amount OR using birth control pills or other voluntary form of birth control, condoms, or whatever and have no worries. When some of these people have six or eight babies by six or eight different men, the taxpayers should not have to foot the bill for their irresponsibility. Period.
 

alan1

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As many of the threads here and in the political forum show, debate over different welfare programs(food stamps, min wage, unemployment) seem to lack definition. Stereotypes on both sides are constantly presented and generic arguments are repeated ad naseum. But no one offers up any kind of formula to separate the needy from the greedy, and as a conservative it seems like the argument always devolves to our detriment. This will be an issue in the upcoming elections and republicans better be able to address it head on or proactively.
Conservatives aren't heartless but they are also not fools, especially if they live and work in the real world, and the fraud and corruption in the welfare system is gargantuan and it remains also undefined because the powers that be have no interest in curtailing the welfare system. Let's just say for the sake of argument that 30 percent of welfare payments of all kind are fraudulent. If that thirty was cleaned up we could afford to have all the assistance that is in place now operating in the black and in general with the support of both parties, so this could be a win win situation, the truly needy would be served and the budget would not be busted.
I am upset about this issue because of what I see happening in my own town. I live in one of the poorest counties in fl, and it does not take a heap of money to get by here. Food stamps are ubiquitous . wic, free health care, a ton of money returned at tax time, and Medicaid out the wazoo. In the most flagrant of welfare scams we have a drunk getting disability and back pay because she is a drunk, a drug addict getting disability for being a drug addict, a fat girl getting disability because she is fat, and a healthy 20year old male,father of one child getting disability because he doesn't get along in social situations very well. I know all these people and all of them could work and we're working before they got disability. In short, bad behavior is being rewarded. Like in the rest of the country there are some deserving of govt programs and a whole lot scamming the system.
If google and Facebook and others can compile encyclopedias of private info on all of us, why can't the govt apply similar technology to the welfare problem or in good free enterprise terms why can't it farm out these tasks to the private sector.(please no obamacare website comparisons). We need some definition of what needy is, some regional apps for the level of need in different parts of the country, welfare histories of those who are chronically on assistance programs, and assessments of the level of success of assistance programs. It is not uncaring to want to get the most bang for the buck, and it is not heartless to want the most needy to get the lions share of benefits.
While this is something I encourage republican to tackle, addressing this problem would benefit the whole country and unite us, but you must have some metrics to begin to define the problem.
No where in the founding documents of this country does it say that the state or the citizens are responsible for providing assistance such as food, housing, clothing, medicine or anything else to the poor, unfortunate or indigent. It simply doesn't.
If individuals want to do that, let them. I have no problem with that. It is not the governments responsibility nor right to force me or you or anybody else to do that. Somehow, even most conservatives have been coerced into thinking providing assistance is a government (tax payer) responsibility when that was never part of our founding documents or beliefs.
Remove the 100% and we may actually become a solvent country again.
 
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Shrimpbox

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Good discussion but Alan while I might agree with you the reality is that some programs are here to stay.
Ok for sake of objectivity, it is all right to be objective here isn't it, I have posted two different web sites with two different views of food stamps or the euphemistic snap program. While I still believe the reality is more lets use a figure of ten per cent for fraud(and I really didn't want to concentrate on just food stamps). I can see where my argument is corrupted by the fact that the Obama regime has so loosened the requirements for getting assistance that fraud can't technically be applied. The figures for single males without children and able bodied is case in point.
But let me inject another real world case. My daughter works with a girl who has three children and is married to a scumbag former law enforcement guy who is now in jail. Without his income she was in a tight even though she made low 30s for pay. She went to try and get some assistance, maybe some food stamps. She was told she didn't qualify for any assistance but if she would quit her job she could make more money than she was earning now off of public assistance. She didn't quit her job.
The point here is that welfare is either or. If you pretend to have nothing you get everything. If you have anything you get nothing. This benefits the unambitious and punishes those who are trying.
I didn't know posting was gonna be this much work. Phew
 
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Shrimpbox

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Ok apparently I can't copy and paste
freedom Works. Top 10 Reasons Food Stamps Need To Be Reformed
Feeding America. SNAP(Food Stamps): Facts, Myths, and Realities
Facebook. The Jailbird Weekly 7 charged in 5m food stamp fraud case
 

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