What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[Bern80]

The conservative Roberts court in one fell swoop (Citizens United) tore apart 100 years of case law and legislation, with the intent of creating a plutocracy.

how can it be a plutocracy when there are millions of corporations all competing with each other? Plutocracy means a few, not a few million!!

And are there millions? I would be surprised if there were 100,000 corporations (note, I say coporations, not businesses). And are theyreally competing with each other? How many telephone carriers are there? 10?20? Ditto television station owners?

You can 'note it' all you want. The reality is many if not most the businesses we would call 'small businesses' are designated as S-Corporations. So, what fictitious, convenient-for-you definition of the term would you like us all to use?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Liberals are pathological liars, that's the tricky part about arguing with them

 

[Full-Auto]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Liberals are pathological liars, that's the tricky part about arguing with them

Difficult to argue with an imagination.

 

[Foxfyre]

Political views 'hard-wired' into your brain

Scientists have found that people with conservative views have brains with larger amygdalas, almond shaped areas in the centre of the brain often associated with anxiety and emotions.

On the otherhand, they have a smaller anterior cingulate, an area at the front of the brain associated with courage and looking on the bright side of life.

The "exciting" correlation was found by scientists at University College London who scanned the brains of two members of parliament and a number of students.

----------------------------------------------

Are There Differences Between Liberal and Conservative Brains?

In October, a study published in the journal Nature Neuroscience found that these differences in thinking may be traceable to brain differences. New York University neuroscientist David Amodio and his colleagues showed that brain responses to quick, unexpected changes in strategy differed between liberals and conservatives.

And I wonder if you would be citing it if a study of a few student showed that liberals "may" be illogical and irrational, i.e. lack common sense, more often than conservatives?

Everyone has common sense. Intelligent people, however, have a tendency to overapply their analytical and logical reasoning abilities derived from their general intelligence incorrectly to such evolutionarily familiar domains and as a result get things wrong. In other words, liberals and other intelligent people lack common sense, because their general intelligence overrides it. They think in situations where they are supposed to feel. In evolutionarily familiar domains such as interpersonal relationships, feeling usually leads to correct solutions whereas thinking does not.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...s-are-more-intelligent-conservatives-why-are-

And while I consider the results of your cited study quite inconclusive, as would any scientist worthy of the term, I also think it is absurd to speculate that intelligent people lack common sense. Or that 'feeling' is preferable to 'thinking'.

I think it is neither a matter of intelligence nor common sense. I see it as a disconnect between intent and results.

Liberals will more often promote and applaud anti-poverty programs because the intent is right, the titles of the programs sound noble, and it 'feels' compassionate.

Conservatives are no less compassionate--conservative still continue to significantly out give liberals out of their own pockets to charity, to volunteer more, to donate more blood, to found and staff organizations targeted at helping the poor, etc.--but they also are able to see the inefficiencies and ineffectiveness of government programs more than liberals seem able to do.

Liberals seem to operate on the basis of "if the motives and intent are right, the government should force everybody to do it."

Conservatives more often operate on the basis of do it if it works, fix things that are broken, and stop doing things that are not accomplishing the objectives or goals and/or that do more harm than good and/or are wasteful and counter productive and/or can even be uncompassionate. And because the federal government will almost always be the least efficient and effective way to do charity and breeds corruption when it tries, it should not do it at all."

But then you get into very frustrating dscussions with liberals who accuse conservatives of being greedy, uncaring, selfish, and generally bad or stupid people because they hold the point of view as I am stating here.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The SCOTUS did NOT declare corporations to be legal entities, persons, in 1878, under Chief Justice Harlan.

Yep, never happened.

FindLaw | Cases and Codes

Here is your name for the day: Court reporter J.C. Bancroft Davis. Educate yourself.

Here's your concept for the day, "established fact."

 

[Uncensored2008]

how can it be a plutocracy when there are millions of corporations all competing with each other? Plutocracy means a few, not a few million!!

Bfgrn isn't real bright.

Scientists have found that leftism is a manifestation of brain damage.

{“Based on strikingly irrational beliefs and emotions, modern liberals relentlessly undermine the most important principles on which our freedoms were founded,” says Dr. Lyle Rossiter, author of the new book, “The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness.” “Like spoiled, angry children, they rebel against the normal responsibilities of adulthood and demand that a parental government meet their needs from cradle to grave.”…}

Read more: Compelling scientific evidence suggests leftism (liberalism) is a mental disorder | The Navigator

 

[Uncensored2008]

"The Court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution which forbids a state to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does."

By adding this comment to the headnotes of the printed case summary, court reporter J.C. Bancroft Davis established the legal personhood of corporations within the United States.

Even if your bit of mythology held water, it in no way alters the falsehood you floated regarding Citizens United.

BTW, you never answered about whether it should be legal to make a movie critical of Mitt Romney?

 

[Uncensored2008]

And are there millions? I would be surprised if there were 100,000 corporations (note, I say coporations, not businesses). And are theyreally competing with each other? How many telephone carriers are there? 10?20? Ditto television station owners?

Yes, but then, you're a rather ignorant troll.

It's why you're a leftist.

There are 23 million incorporated businesses in America.

Statistics about Small Business from the Census Bureau

 

[Foxfyre]

The conservative Roberts court in one fell swoop (Citizens United) tore apart 100 years of case law and legislation, with the intent of creating a plutocracy.

how can it be a plutocracy when there are millions of corporations all competing with each other? Plutocracy means a few, not a few million!!

And are there millions? I would be surprised if there were 100,000 corporations (note, I say coporations, not businesses). And are theyreally competing with each other? How many telephone carriers are there? 10?20? Ditto television station owners?

How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data?

The 2006 US Census Bureau estimates a total of 6 million firms based in the US. Of these, only 18,000 have more than 500 employees, yet they represent 50% of employment and 60% of total US revenues. To get the world numbers you would need to get census data for the main countries. For example, Mexico has over 4 million firms but only 4,000 are larger than 500 employees; Chile has 1 million firms but only 9,000 are big, and so on.
How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data? - Quora

 

[koshergrl]

I see this over and over. Conservatives are for limited government. Just because we say we don't want government doing things where government is inept, counterproductive, wasteful or whatever, does not mean that we should shut it down totally.

Yes, we do need roads, bridges, highways, jails, schools, aircraft carriers, GPS satellites, standard weights and measures, courts, etc etc. Saying we don't need subsidies for crummy cars badly built and still with astronomical prices does not mean we don't need highways.

The conservative view is that the government should be a useful servant of the people's needs. However, you give it too much money, power, authority it becomes the worst sort of master.

Liberals are pathological liars, that's the tricky part about arguing with them

Exactly.

 

[Foxfyre]

Come on guys. I don't think all liberals or even most liberals are liars, pathological or for expediency.

It's just that liberals seem to know so much stuff that just isn't true.

Just because America isn't India doesn't make Columbus a liar.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data?

The 2006 US Census Bureau estimates a total of 6 million firms based in the US. Of these, only 18,000 have more than 500 employees, yet they represent 50% of employment and 60% of total US revenues. To get the world numbers you would need to get census data for the main countries. For example, Mexico has over 4 million firms but only 4,000 are larger than 500 employees; Chile has 1 million firms but only 9,000 are big, and so on.
How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data? - Quora

Most incorporated businesses have less than 5 employees.

THIS is what the left demonizes.

LLC, LLP, and Inc - it's about limiting liability, not about size.

 

[Vast LWC]

And are there millions? I would be surprised if there were 100,000 corporations (note, I say coporations, not businesses). And are theyreally competing with each other? How many telephone carriers are there? 10?20? Ditto television station owners?

Yes, but then, you're a rather ignorant troll.

It's why you're a leftist.

There are 23 million incorporated businesses in America.

Statistics about Small Business from the Census Bureau

Yes, there are. I can go and incorporate myself as a business tomorrow, and that would make 23 million and 1 "corporations".

Of course, you know very well that's not what the poster was referring to.

Tell me, if I go out and start hooking up telephones for people tomorrow, and call myself a "corporation", do you really think I have a chance in hell of competing with Verizon?

 

[Vast LWC]

Liberals are pathological liars, that's the tricky part about arguing with them

Exactly.

Says the pathological liar, agreeing with another pathological liar.

Tell me, if someone who always lies calls someone else a liar, doesn't that indicate that the person so called does in fact speak the truth?

 

[koshergrl]

Why don't you share one of my many lies with the group, hmmm?

 

[koshergrl]

Be sure to quote and link.

 

[Vast LWC]

Most incorporated businesses have less than 5 employees.

THIS is what the left demonizes.

LLC, LLP, and Inc - it's about limiting liability, not about size.

Yes, they do. Because people go out and incorporate their consultant businesses, etc, for the tax write-offs. Happens all the time.

 

[koshergrl]

Waiting for examples of my many lies still...

 

[Foxfyre]

How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data?

The 2006 US Census Bureau estimates a total of 6 million firms based in the US. Of these, only 18,000 have more than 500 employees, yet they represent 50% of employment and 60% of total US revenues. To get the world numbers you would need to get census data for the main countries. For example, Mexico has over 4 million firms but only 4,000 are larger than 500 employees; Chile has 1 million firms but only 9,000 are big, and so on.
How many corporations (SME & Enterprise) are there in the US and the world, and what's the best resource to find this data? - Quora

Most incorporated businesses have less than 5 employees.

THIS is what the left demonizes.

LLC, LLP, and Inc - it's about limiting liability, not about size.

Exactly. When we incorporated our business, we had four employees including us. But before we turned over that business to our partners and left the firm, we were providing opportunity for a pretty good living to about 20 people. But due to the nature of our business, it was necessary to incorporate to protect our personal assets in case of lawsuit, etc.

In addition to the corporations, however, you do have a whole bunch more partnerships and sole proprietorships who do not incorporate to avoid double taxation on their income and therefore do incur somewhat higher risk.

But despite how small millions of American businesses of all types are, it is the small businesses (fewer than 500 employees) who are providing the large lion's share of the jobs. And it is the small businesses, those less able to shelter their income overseas, etc., that the Obama administration is targeting for higher taxes. And every dollar confiscated as taxes will be a dollar not available to increase wages and benefits for the workers and/or not available to hire somebody in a new job.

This brings us back to the frustrating part of debating these issues with liberals. Liberals say it is only FAIR that the rich and corporations pay more. And they point to a Warren Buffett and to big corporations who approve of that concept as proof that they are right.

What they don't see is, or refuse to acknowledge, is that Warren Buffett can shelter most of his income from the tax man and is currently in a legal contest to resist paying addiitonal taxes that the government says he owes from his business.

What they don't see, or refuse to acknowledge, is that big corporations can and do shelter most of their income off shore and WANT the governmdent to take out their competition from small business by taxing it more or requiring the small businesses to provide the same kinds of benefits etc. that large corporations provide their employees, etc.

What they don't see is that requring small business and wealthier people to pay more in taxes takes money out of the economy that helps the less wealthy and provides jobs.

Again it is the motive of 'intent" (i.e. fairness) versus results that drives the liberal mindset. Conservatives see that motive is worthless if the results are opposite intent. And positive results are positive results regardless of intent.

But try to get a liberal to debate THAT instead of the straw men, red herrings, non sequiturs, and anecdotal evidence they will use to support their point of view.

 

[koshergrl]

Liberals believe "pay each according to his or her need". It doesn't work.