What Kind of State in Israel?

[Hossfly]

Do Arab citizens of Israel enjoy equal spending on their schools, Hossie?
Are Arab citizens of Israel able to purchase land?
Any Arabs telling other Arabs not to rent to Jews in Israel?
Are Arabs from around the globe invited to colonize the occupied territories like Jews are?
Israel was created as a Jewish state NOT a state for all of its citizens.

For all your constant deflections of Muslim prejudices, I notice you still haven't bothered to start any threads complaining about Arab hate. That makes me think the only reason you mention Muslim crimes is because you can't bring yourself to acknowledge Jewish issues.

"A crucial issue is how sovereign this Palestinian state would be. Would it exercise full control over its borders? Recently, for example, Israel stopped Mahmoud Abbas’ envoy from traveling to South Africa to attend the inauguration of its new president. It has also introduced a rule that makes it even harder for West Bank Palestinians to enter Jerusalem.

"And if the new Palestinian state does control its own borders, would it be forced to accept Israeli behind-the-scenes monitoring of all travelers, an approach initiated in Gaza before Israel sealed its borders?"

What Kind of State? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Regardless that you would never admit it, the Arabs have it much better in Israel than they do in so many of the Middle Eastern countries. Instead of pulling up Counterpunch all the time whose authors are against Israel and the Jews, why not read some articles that have been written by Arabs themselves telling how well the Arabs actually have it in Israel. For someone who has stated that the Muslims, Jews and Christians are getting on his last nerves, he certainly doesn't have a problem pulling up his Counterpunch stuff once again like he thinks people are going to read the same old article over and over each time he pulls it up like it is some precious gem.

 

[toastman]

When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

This move would prove that Israel is the better of the two parties in dispute. If the Palestinians then break the peace, exercise the harshest of draconian measures.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

This move would prove that Israel is the better of the two parties in dispute. If the Palestinians then break the peace, exercise the harshest of draconian measures.

Most Respectfully,
R

First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus

 

[ima]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

This move would prove that Israel is the better of the two parties in dispute. If the Palestinians then break the peace, exercise the harshest of draconian measures.

Most Respectfully,
R

First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus

Good thing you fat fartsack will soon be dead. You're not going to make it to armageddon.

 

[Lipush]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

 

[ima]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

Lips, don't pop your bean!

You weren't born in the area and have no roots in the area, so why do you even care?

 

[georgephillip]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.

I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.

(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?

 

[Lipush]

toastman, georgephillip, et al,

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.


(COMMENT)

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders. I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority.

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?

What? Sorry, didn't get that? What exactly are you offering

 

[RoccoR]

Hossfly, et al,

I make my recommendation based on the potential that it is better for the overal security of Israel and the catalyst for peace.

First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus

(COMMENT)

The ancient claims are no more valid today, for the modern day Israeli, than the ancient claims made absurdly popular by the Arabs.

There are no ancient birthrights applicable to the region. Even most of the 1948 land claims of the Arabs and lost property are gone.

It is important to remember that Israel today is a modern manifestation of a cascade turn of events. Israel might not even exist today if it had not been for the fact that the UK tired of the Jewish led, anti-government, terrorism; and saw very little return on its investment. But had they seen the outcome and the mess that both the Jewish people and the Arabs have made of the land and territory, they might have instituted stricter security measures and stayed.

(QUESTIONS)

What is the imperative that Jerusalem must be Israeli? Why cannot Jerusalem be an independent City/State?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?

What? Sorry, didn't get that? What exactly are you offering

"A 'Hebrew' nation disconnected from its Jewish past."
A Semitic Union stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates:

"The Canaanites believed that much of the Middle East had been a Hebrew-speaking civilization in antiquity.[4] They hoped to revive this civilization, creating a 'Hebrew' nation, disconnected from the Jewish past, which would embrace the Middle East's Arab population as well.[4]

" They saw both 'world Jewry and world Islam' as backward and medieval; Ron Kuzar writes that the movement 'exhibited an interesting blend of militarism and power politics toward the Arabs as an organized community on the one hand and a welcoming acceptance of them as individuals to be redeemed from medieval darkness on the other.'"

Canaanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[toastman]

For you ROcco..



Tell me what you think

 

[Lipush]

Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?

What? Sorry, didn't get that? What exactly are you offering

"A 'Hebrew' nation disconnected from its Jewish past."
A Semitic Union stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates:

"The Canaanites believed that much of the Middle East had been a Hebrew-speaking civilization in antiquity.[4] They hoped to revive this civilization, creating a 'Hebrew' nation, disconnected from the Jewish past, which would embrace the Middle East's Arab population as well.[4]

" They saw both 'world Jewry and world Islam' as backward and medieval; Ron Kuzar writes that the movement 'exhibited an interesting blend of militarism and power politics toward the Arabs as an organized community on the one hand and a welcoming acceptance of them as individuals to be redeemed from medieval darkness on the other.'"

Canaanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A 'Hebrew' nation disconnected from its Jewish past."

Sorry, not gonna work.

I remember that when the plans of making a jouney to Poland, some asked why is there a need to bring young youth to watch the remains of what is left in the European death camps. The answer to that was hanged on our class wall, which is also my answer to you now.

The written on the walls, said by Yigal Alon- 'A nation that does not know its past, its present is poor and its future is shrouded in fog'

 

[ima]

NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!

Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?

What? Sorry, didn't get that? What exactly are you offering

I'll offer you a one way ticket to the beaner country that you come from.

 

[RoccoR]

toastman, et al,

Yes, I've seen this, and similar videos before; and as a tactical explanation, it expresses the situation quite accurately.

For you ROcco..

Tell me what you think

(COMMENT)

Before the 1990's, I essentially agreed with the entire concept of this video. I understood the language of UN Res 242 and the meaning of "defensible borders." At that time, I agreed. At that time, and maybe a bit naive, I thought that Israel would be a very good caretaker of the West Bank and Gaza, and would make those portions of the area as rich and prosperous as the rest of Israel.

However, it is more than obvious that Israel has not been a good caretaker and landlord of those selected areas (equitable and fair with the same laws and justice for all); and there is no reason to believe that Israel intendes to improve in that respect. In the 40+ years since the '67 War, the fair and equitable character, that Israel was believed to have, simply did not materialize; and it wasn't a matter of money (financing). There were plenty of sources for that.

I think that people like me, and much of the world, thought that Israel would institute something on the order of a Marshal Plan, that would promote the growth, infrastructure and prosperity of the Occupied Territories. That the Occupied Territories would share in the advancement and economic development of Israel. This did not happen.

Many, like myself, that originally gave unconditional support to Israel, now see that either the character and nature of the Israeli has change, or the task was well beyond their ability to construct. In either case, the problems that existed 40+ years ago, still exist today, without much improvement over the Occupied Territories. It is now approaching a time for a change.

No one wants to see Israel put in danger. But Israel must understand that, largely through its misfeasance, (in some cases) malfeasance, and certainly some nonfeasance, it has allowed the conditions to fester to the point that its security (which was once paramount) has now become secondary to the plight and restoration of the Occupied Territories.

There are very few that doubt that the basic concepts of internal and external security, as expressed in the video, are not accurate. There are very few that doubt, that the trustworthiness, honesty, integrity, moral character and peaceful intentions of the Palestinian (and the Arab World in general) are not in question. But after nearly a half century, the Israeli approach has not proven successful in dealing effectively with the situation, and its inability to demonstrate the qualities of a good, fair and honest landlord and caretaker have been dismal.

It is time for change. And the quasi-recognition of the Palestinian is a turning point. Israel must understand that it is not the master and slumlord of the Occupied Territories. Or it will be taken away.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

Who's going to break that news to Bibi?

There's no shortage of religious "nuts" (for lack of a more clinical term) on both sides of this fight.
Jews have multiple nuclear weapons.
Could the UNSC enforce "slum clearance" on the West Bank and in Gaza?

 

[toastman]

toastman, et al,

Yes, I've seen this, and similar videos before; and as a tactical explanation, it expresses the situation quite accurately.

For you ROcco..

Tell me what you think

(COMMENT)

Before the 1990's, I essentially agreed with the entire concept of this video. I understood the language of UN Res 242 and the meaning of "defensible borders." At that time, I agreed. At that time, and maybe a bit naive, I thought that Israel would be a very good caretaker of the West Bank and Gaza, and would make those portions of the area as rich and prosperous as the rest of Israel.

However, it is more than obvious that Israel has not been a good caretaker and landlord of those selected areas (equitable and fair with the same laws and justice for all); and there is no reason to believe that Israel intendes to improve in that respect. In the 40+ years since the '67 War, the fair and equitable character, that Israel was believed to have, simply did not materialize; and it wasn't a matter of money (financing). There were plenty of sources for that.

I think that people like me, and much of the world, thought that Israel would institute something on the order of a Marshal Plan, that would promote the growth, infrastructure and prosperity of the Occupied Territories. That the Occupied Territories would share in the advancement and economic development of Israel. This did not happen.

Many, like myself, that originally gave unconditional support to Israel, now see that either the character and nature of the Israeli has change, or the task was well beyond their ability to construct. In either case, the problems that existed 40+ years ago, still exist today, without much improvement over the Occupied Territories. It is now approaching a time for a change.

No one wants to see Israel put in danger. But Israel must understand that, largely through its misfeasance, (in some cases) malfeasance, and certainly some nonfeasance, it has allowed the conditions to fester to the point that its security (which was once paramount) has now become secondary to the plight and restoration of the Occupied Territories.

There are very few that doubt that the basic concepts of internal and external security, as expressed in the video, are not accurate. There are very few that doubt, that the trustworthiness, honesty, integrity, moral character and peaceful intentions of the Palestinian (and the Arab World in general) are not in question. But after nearly a half century, the Israeli approach has not proven successful in dealing effectively with the situation, and its inability to demonstrate the qualities of a good, fair and honest landlord and caretaker have been dismal.

It is time for change. And the quasi-recognition of the Palestinian is a turning point. Israel must understand that it is not the master and slumlord of the Occupied Territories. Or it will be taken away.

Most Respectfully,
R

Taken away by whom ?

 

[georgephillip]

UNSC?
Russia, China, USA...?
And...BDSmovement.net | The Palestinian BDS National Committee website

 

[irosie91]

Gaza is "AWAY" it is on its own----other than the fact
that it has declared its intention of destroying israel and its
religious leaders have declared that ALLAH wants muslims
to kill jews all over the world regardless of age or gender.
That fact makes Gaza an enemy of Israel and all decent
humans----and confers on israel the right to defend itself
from the filth of the ideology promulgated in Gaza As
to the west bank----the border was not determined----east
jerusalem was wrested from Jews in 1947-8 by virtue of
massacre of civilians and it's status was left undetermined.
I do not believe that once things are "settled" that anyone
is going to be satisfied and I believe that when arab/muslims
are not satisfied they engage in terrorism In fact it is a
reaction of muslims who like to emulate "arab customs" ---
as is happening in Pakistan

 

[irosie91]

Hossfly, et al,

I make my recommendation based on the potential that it is better for the overal security of Israel and the catalyst for peace.

First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus

(COMMENT)

The ancient claims are no more valid today, for the modern day Israeli, than the ancient claims made absurdly popular by the Arabs.

There are no ancient birthrights applicable to the region. Even most of the 1948 land claims
of the Arabs and lost property are gone.

It is important to remember that Israel today is a modern manifestation of a cascade turn of events. Israel might not even exist today if it had not been for the fact that the UK tired of the Jewish led, anti-government, terrorism; and saw very little return on its investment. But
had they seen the outcome and the mess that both the Jewish people and the Arabs have made of the land and territory, they might have instituted stricter security measures and stayed.

(QUESTIONS)

What is the imperative that Jerusalem must be Israeli? Why cannot Jerusalem be an independent City/State?

Most Respectfully,
R

The imperative is justice and equity. The conflict between jews and
muslims in the middle east cannot be distilled down to ----JUST ISRAEL.
. The conflict ---historically covered the ENTIRE REGION once
the AGE OF ISLAMIC CONQUEST BEGAN. which is only about
the past 13 centures ----that is HUMAN RECORDED KNOWN
HISTORY -----not pre historic australian aboriginal history-----It
is as real to modern day jews as the person named "jesus"
is to christians It involves sites and locations and shrines very
WELL KNOWN as real places of importance ---known intimately.

Jerusalem is for jews---THE MOST IMPORTANT SPOT ON EARTH---
from the standpoint of jewish theology For islam the place
is mecca -----and the ancient JEWISH CITY OF MEDINA --from the
standpoint of islamic theology ---as far as I am concerned
<<<< that fact is ENOUGH The river Ganges has importance
to HINDUS Were someone to move into India and propose
a take over of the River ganges that would somehow make that
river "BELONG" to PEOPLE or INDUSTRY other than hindus----
I would object on the ground of JUSTICE AND EQUITY
The JEWS FROM EUROPE bullshit is a smoke screen over the
fact that the "GLORIOUS AGE OF ISLAMIC CONQUEST" included
not a single land that did not ALREADY have a jewish population--
which the GOLDEN INVADERS did not decimate. A claim that
the decimation of jewish populations over 1400 years
in the middle east is -------"irrelevant" ----is less logical than
claiming that the issue of arab refugees from palestine is
UTTERLY MEANINGLESS ----in fact is it is grossly RACIST