What is the most destructive Conservative policy in the US today?

[BrokeLoser]

Haha...nice diversion.

Its not a diversion. I directly answered your question with a "yes", and then reminded you that this was a discusssion of whether or not we should be diverting those resources in the first place.

First you couldn't puzzle out how this affects people's lives. That was retarded. Then your response was to say, "that could be said about any law". So, you couldn't figure out something simple, then tried to chastise others for it being obvious. Then you conflated drugs with pedophilia. You, sir, are a moron.

You're just rambling on...you're not making any sense...smoke another joint and try again.

I am still waiting for you to tell me how illegal immigration impacts my quality of life

If you're located in Fargo, ND it probably doesn't.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Haha...nice diversion.

Its not a diversion. I directly answered your question with a "yes", and then reminded you that this was a discusssion of whether or not we should be diverting those resources in the first place.

First you couldn't puzzle out how this affects people's lives. That was retarded. Then your response was to say, "that could be said about any law". So, you couldn't figure out something simple, then tried to chastise others for it being obvious. Then you conflated drugs with pedophilia. You, sir, are a moron.

You're just rambling on...you're not making any sense...smoke another joint and try again.

I am still waiting for you to tell me how illegal immigration impacts my quality of life

If you're located in Fargo, ND it probably doesn't.

I have lived in AZ, KS, IL, SC, NC, FL, GA and MS. Never impacted my quality of life.

 

[forkup]

I did know one can get primary care in any hospital. My wife is American by the way. No it's not faster then in my country ( although I can't vouch for other European countries). It's actually after that that the US lacks. What you guy do is making it economical unfeasible for certain segments of the populace to receive decent care. I know this because exactly that happened to my brother in law.
As to your question. Again I can't speak for all of Europe honestly, because I don't know how it is in every country in Europe. What I do know that here,( Belgium) . You get seen by a doctor quickly. One even comes to your house if you are not mobile. If you get really sick or hurt care is immediate. As an example I've been having headaches lately a lot. My GP send me to get a CT scan in my local hospital. At no point was there cause for alarm yet I got my scan in 2 weeks. My wife on the other hand, (this was before we got married, so no insurance), broke her ankle here pretty badly. She got seen, operated on in one hectic afternoon. Nobody asked her how she would pay for it and they even made a follow up. This of course is all anecdotal. What isn't that the US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world by far. Yet for most health indicators the US score below most of Europe

Well, at least you are real.

Let me put it to you this way, and I hope you really read this----------------> In a perfect world, I believe that healthcare should be a mix of government subsidies, AND personal control of cost, with the recipient being able to KEEP 1/2 of the subsidy, if he/she comes in UNDER the subsidy, returning the other 1/2 to the government.

Why?

Because then the patient will attempt to get the LOWEST cost for their care, forcing healthcare facilities to COMPETE for their business, just as if you are purchasing a car, or beef, or oil, or natural gas.

Without the patient being given incentives to lower costs to themselves, nobody wins. The providers know if they give good or bad service, they get the same amount, or the patient knowing that no matter the service they receive, the government pays it, no entity has incentive to do anything.

FREEDOM is choice, plain and simple. You will only CHOOSE something different, if it benefits you! Those giving YOU healthcare will want those dollars, so they will alter what they provide by price, or care, so as YOU choose them.

Do you like money? So do they! So by competition, they will try to get more people to spend their healthcare dollars there. And there is only 2 ways to do it. Lower prices, or better care. That is a win-win! And then, you will get facilities who will offer lower prices, and BETTER than average care! If you get to keep 50% of the subsidy, you WILL be looking for that!

This is why SOCIALISM does NOT work! As long as something is free, the product doesn't have to get better, and as long as somebody else pays for it, the price never has to come down!

Actually not true. There is incentive to make it cheap. If healthcare is expensive the government has to make up the shortfall. They have to raise taxes then. You think that wouldn't effect their ability to get reelected. I'll give you a few practical examples, forgive me that they will be again anecdotal. My town population around 35000 is serviced by about 15 people who administrate our health insurance.( State run). Between the people who administer your several health insurance providers, pharmacy techs who's sole job it is to call those providers to fill scrips, medical billing and coders and other staff. How many people does it take to service 35000 people in the US? My GP doesn't have a secretary in fact almost none of them do. That simply isn't possible in the US. Most of the middle men between patient and doctor has been eliminated here, all people you don't have to pay. So is most of the for profit motive. One of my wives friends in the US had a lapband surgery 2 years ago. It took her 2 years, countless doctors visit, and thousands of dollars to get it done. My wife had a gastric bypass last year. It took her 4 months, 1 doctors visit and 1 full day of tests. What's cheaper and more efficient?

Point taken!

How many people reside in Belgium?

Do you have an influx of legal, or illegal aliens, that your government wans to give free healthcare to also?

Do you belong to NATO? And if so, how much does your country pay, allowing more money for social services?

What is YOUR personal tax rate. and are you personally considered middle class?

All these things are pertinent. I am NOT trying to delve into your personal life, that is NOT my objective. Rather, it is to show the stark contrast, between our life and yours, if there is such a disparity.

EXAMPLE----------------> As I type this, because of my (as I believe) lower tax rates, I am a former blue collar worker, partially retired, living in a paid of 2200 square foot house, in my rec room that has a wet bar, on 1/4 acre, with 3 vehicles in my driveway, AND a 36 foot RV(recreational vehicle) I can travel my beautiful country with, whenever I choose.

This is my life, with low tax rates, without NATIONAL HEALTHCARE!

Of course, I DO have healthcare, because I worked, retired, and my former employer pays for it!

Sooooooooooooooooo, if I live better than you do being just a former blue collar worker, you are suggesting that I live less, so that those who made BAD decisions in life, have healthcare, while I give up my stuff to make them happy.

Is that how the world is supposed to work?

And I will inform you---------->while working where I worked, I watched THOUSANDS of people hire in, and QUIT! The work was NOT worth the pay, or benefits they were to receive. NOW you want me to SUBSIDIZE those same people? You are kidding me, correct!

Ok lots of questions. I don't want to be evasive, but some of these questions don't have any bearing on national healthcare and it's relative value in comparison with for profit heath care.
- Population: Doesn't have any bearing on the per capita cost. Since these are averages. 12 Million but it's not important.
- Personal taxation: Also irrelevant because healthcare cost is a calculation of the cost out of pocket PLUS taxation. But again in the interest of honesty 50 percent more or less.
- Ingress of outsiders in social security. Again irrelevant, talking averages here. But to answer your question, yes. In fact Belgium population 12 million had a larger influx of refugees then the US per capita. Mostly Syrians.

Now we come with the things that could be relevant.
-Yes, we are a member of Nato. In fact Nato headquarters is in Brussels. We spend .9 percent of GDP on the Military. As opposed to the 3.6 the US spends although the US has a lot of expenditures outside Nato. Defense Expenditures Of NATO Members Visualized [Infographic]
- On the other hand Belgium spend 10 percent of it's GDP on healthcare compared to the 17 percent the US does.Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data

So even if Belgium would spend the same amount of it's GDP on the military it would still be considerably less taken together than the US spends on healthcare alone.

As to my personal situation. Yes I'm middle class. Have a fully paid house at 40 although I'm afraid our cost per acreage is considerably higher than most of the US so it's not that big, since we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I have a 3 year old Mercedes to drive and a company car. I used to be Blue collar but I'm a supervisor now. All in all I'm pretty comparable I think.

Now to your question. You, I and every other person pays for stuff that you don't necessarily use. You pay for a military, roads, prisons and yes healthcare, basic as it may be. After that isn't just a matter of how much your willing to pay for certainty? I pay wayyyyy more taxes. On the other hand, just like I said. Me and my family will never have to worry about what happens when I get sick, lose my job or if my kids will get a decent education. So yes I want to subsidize the lazies. Because not all the people who live on the system are there of their own volition and yes it could happen to you to.

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

 

[imawhosure]

Well, at least you are real.

Let me put it to you this way, and I hope you really read this----------------> In a perfect world, I believe that healthcare should be a mix of government subsidies, AND personal control of cost, with the recipient being able to KEEP 1/2 of the subsidy, if he/she comes in UNDER the subsidy, returning the other 1/2 to the government.

Why?

Because then the patient will attempt to get the LOWEST cost for their care, forcing healthcare facilities to COMPETE for their business, just as if you are purchasing a car, or beef, or oil, or natural gas.

Without the patient being given incentives to lower costs to themselves, nobody wins. The providers know if they give good or bad service, they get the same amount, or the patient knowing that no matter the service they receive, the government pays it, no entity has incentive to do anything.

FREEDOM is choice, plain and simple. You will only CHOOSE something different, if it benefits you! Those giving YOU healthcare will want those dollars, so they will alter what they provide by price, or care, so as YOU choose them.

Do you like money? So do they! So by competition, they will try to get more people to spend their healthcare dollars there. And there is only 2 ways to do it. Lower prices, or better care. That is a win-win! And then, you will get facilities who will offer lower prices, and BETTER than average care! If you get to keep 50% of the subsidy, you WILL be looking for that!

This is why SOCIALISM does NOT work! As long as something is free, the product doesn't have to get better, and as long as somebody else pays for it, the price never has to come down!

Actually not true. There is incentive to make it cheap. If healthcare is expensive the government has to make up the shortfall. They have to raise taxes then. You think that wouldn't effect their ability to get reelected. I'll give you a few practical examples, forgive me that they will be again anecdotal. My town population around 35000 is serviced by about 15 people who administrate our health insurance.( State run). Between the people who administer your several health insurance providers, pharmacy techs who's sole job it is to call those providers to fill scrips, medical billing and coders and other staff. How many people does it take to service 35000 people in the US? My GP doesn't have a secretary in fact almost none of them do. That simply isn't possible in the US. Most of the middle men between patient and doctor has been eliminated here, all people you don't have to pay. So is most of the for profit motive. One of my wives friends in the US had a lapband surgery 2 years ago. It took her 2 years, countless doctors visit, and thousands of dollars to get it done. My wife had a gastric bypass last year. It took her 4 months, 1 doctors visit and 1 full day of tests. What's cheaper and more efficient?

Point taken!

How many people reside in Belgium?

Do you have an influx of legal, or illegal aliens, that your government wans to give free healthcare to also?

Do you belong to NATO? And if so, how much does your country pay, allowing more money for social services?

What is YOUR personal tax rate. and are you personally considered middle class?

All these things are pertinent. I am NOT trying to delve into your personal life, that is NOT my objective. Rather, it is to show the stark contrast, between our life and yours, if there is such a disparity.

EXAMPLE----------------> As I type this, because of my (as I believe) lower tax rates, I am a former blue collar worker, partially retired, living in a paid of 2200 square foot house, in my rec room that has a wet bar, on 1/4 acre, with 3 vehicles in my driveway, AND a 36 foot RV(recreational vehicle) I can travel my beautiful country with, whenever I choose.

This is my life, with low tax rates, without NATIONAL HEALTHCARE!

Of course, I DO have healthcare, because I worked, retired, and my former employer pays for it!

Sooooooooooooooooo, if I live better than you do being just a former blue collar worker, you are suggesting that I live less, so that those who made BAD decisions in life, have healthcare, while I give up my stuff to make them happy.

Is that how the world is supposed to work?

And I will inform you---------->while working where I worked, I watched THOUSANDS of people hire in, and QUIT! The work was NOT worth the pay, or benefits they were to receive. NOW you want me to SUBSIDIZE those same people? You are kidding me, correct!

Ok lots of questions. I don't want to be evasive, but some of these questions don't have any bearing on national healthcare and it's relative value in comparison with for profit heath care.
- Population: Doesn't have any bearing on the per capita cost. Since these are averages. 12 Million but it's not important.
- Personal taxation: Also irrelevant because healthcare cost is a calculation of the cost out of pocket PLUS taxation. But again in the interest of honesty 50 percent more or less.
- Ingress of outsiders in social security. Again irrelevant, talking averages here. But to answer your question, yes. In fact Belgium population 12 million had a larger influx of refugees then the US per capita. Mostly Syrians.

Now we come with the things that could be relevant.
-Yes, we are a member of Nato. In fact Nato headquarters is in Brussels. We spend .9 percent of GDP on the Military. As opposed to the 3.6 the US spends although the US has a lot of expenditures outside Nato. Defense Expenditures Of NATO Members Visualized [Infographic]
- On the other hand Belgium spend 10 percent of it's GDP on healthcare compared to the 17 percent the US does.Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data

So even if Belgium would spend the same amount of it's GDP on the military it would still be considerably less taken together than the US spends on healthcare alone.

As to my personal situation. Yes I'm middle class. Have a fully paid house at 40 although I'm afraid our cost per acreage is considerably higher than most of the US so it's not that big, since we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I have a 3 year old Mercedes to drive and a company car. I used to be Blue collar but I'm a supervisor now. All in all I'm pretty comparable I think.

Now to your question. You, I and every other person pays for stuff that you don't necessarily use. You pay for a military, roads, prisons and yes healthcare, basic as it may be. After that isn't just a matter of how much your willing to pay for certainty? I pay wayyyyy more taxes. On the other hand, just like I said. Me and my family will never have to worry about what happens when I get sick, lose my job or if my kids will get a decent education. So yes I want to subsidize the lazies. Because not all the people who live on the system are there of their own volition and yes it could happen to you to.

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

 

[forkup]

Actually not true. There is incentive to make it cheap. If healthcare is expensive the government has to make up the shortfall. They have to raise taxes then. You think that wouldn't effect their ability to get reelected. I'll give you a few practical examples, forgive me that they will be again anecdotal. My town population around 35000 is serviced by about 15 people who administrate our health insurance.( State run). Between the people who administer your several health insurance providers, pharmacy techs who's sole job it is to call those providers to fill scrips, medical billing and coders and other staff. How many people does it take to service 35000 people in the US? My GP doesn't have a secretary in fact almost none of them do. That simply isn't possible in the US. Most of the middle men between patient and doctor has been eliminated here, all people you don't have to pay. So is most of the for profit motive. One of my wives friends in the US had a lapband surgery 2 years ago. It took her 2 years, countless doctors visit, and thousands of dollars to get it done. My wife had a gastric bypass last year. It took her 4 months, 1 doctors visit and 1 full day of tests. What's cheaper and more efficient?

Point taken!

How many people reside in Belgium?

Do you have an influx of legal, or illegal aliens, that your government wans to give free healthcare to also?

Do you belong to NATO? And if so, how much does your country pay, allowing more money for social services?

What is YOUR personal tax rate. and are you personally considered middle class?

All these things are pertinent. I am NOT trying to delve into your personal life, that is NOT my objective. Rather, it is to show the stark contrast, between our life and yours, if there is such a disparity.

EXAMPLE----------------> As I type this, because of my (as I believe) lower tax rates, I am a former blue collar worker, partially retired, living in a paid of 2200 square foot house, in my rec room that has a wet bar, on 1/4 acre, with 3 vehicles in my driveway, AND a 36 foot RV(recreational vehicle) I can travel my beautiful country with, whenever I choose.

This is my life, with low tax rates, without NATIONAL HEALTHCARE!

Of course, I DO have healthcare, because I worked, retired, and my former employer pays for it!

Sooooooooooooooooo, if I live better than you do being just a former blue collar worker, you are suggesting that I live less, so that those who made BAD decisions in life, have healthcare, while I give up my stuff to make them happy.

Is that how the world is supposed to work?

And I will inform you---------->while working where I worked, I watched THOUSANDS of people hire in, and QUIT! The work was NOT worth the pay, or benefits they were to receive. NOW you want me to SUBSIDIZE those same people? You are kidding me, correct!

Ok lots of questions. I don't want to be evasive, but some of these questions don't have any bearing on national healthcare and it's relative value in comparison with for profit heath care.
- Population: Doesn't have any bearing on the per capita cost. Since these are averages. 12 Million but it's not important.
- Personal taxation: Also irrelevant because healthcare cost is a calculation of the cost out of pocket PLUS taxation. But again in the interest of honesty 50 percent more or less.
- Ingress of outsiders in social security. Again irrelevant, talking averages here. But to answer your question, yes. In fact Belgium population 12 million had a larger influx of refugees then the US per capita. Mostly Syrians.

Now we come with the things that could be relevant.
-Yes, we are a member of Nato. In fact Nato headquarters is in Brussels. We spend .9 percent of GDP on the Military. As opposed to the 3.6 the US spends although the US has a lot of expenditures outside Nato. Defense Expenditures Of NATO Members Visualized [Infographic]
- On the other hand Belgium spend 10 percent of it's GDP on healthcare compared to the 17 percent the US does.Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data

So even if Belgium would spend the same amount of it's GDP on the military it would still be considerably less taken together than the US spends on healthcare alone.

As to my personal situation. Yes I'm middle class. Have a fully paid house at 40 although I'm afraid our cost per acreage is considerably higher than most of the US so it's not that big, since we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I have a 3 year old Mercedes to drive and a company car. I used to be Blue collar but I'm a supervisor now. All in all I'm pretty comparable I think.

Now to your question. You, I and every other person pays for stuff that you don't necessarily use. You pay for a military, roads, prisons and yes healthcare, basic as it may be. After that isn't just a matter of how much your willing to pay for certainty? I pay wayyyyy more taxes. On the other hand, just like I said. Me and my family will never have to worry about what happens when I get sick, lose my job or if my kids will get a decent education. So yes I want to subsidize the lazies. Because not all the people who live on the system are there of their own volition and yes it could happen to you to.

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

- Of course you don't get the logic. You look at taxes as something the government takes to waste on other people. I look at taxes as me paying the government to render certain services to me and my countrymen. My 50 percent buys me paternity and maternity leave, 20 payed holidays, another 6 official payed holidays on certain dates. Roads without potholes, a first class public transportation system that doesn't just service big cities. Healthcare, near free college. The assurance that I will be able to survive if not in luxury no matter what befalls me. Plus all the services like police and fire department. There is no student debt nor people who have to make choices between food or medicine.

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

 

[imawhosure]

Point taken!

How many people reside in Belgium?

Do you have an influx of legal, or illegal aliens, that your government wans to give free healthcare to also?

Do you belong to NATO? And if so, how much does your country pay, allowing more money for social services?

What is YOUR personal tax rate. and are you personally considered middle class?

All these things are pertinent. I am NOT trying to delve into your personal life, that is NOT my objective. Rather, it is to show the stark contrast, between our life and yours, if there is such a disparity.

EXAMPLE----------------> As I type this, because of my (as I believe) lower tax rates, I am a former blue collar worker, partially retired, living in a paid of 2200 square foot house, in my rec room that has a wet bar, on 1/4 acre, with 3 vehicles in my driveway, AND a 36 foot RV(recreational vehicle) I can travel my beautiful country with, whenever I choose.

This is my life, with low tax rates, without NATIONAL HEALTHCARE!

Of course, I DO have healthcare, because I worked, retired, and my former employer pays for it!

Sooooooooooooooooo, if I live better than you do being just a former blue collar worker, you are suggesting that I live less, so that those who made BAD decisions in life, have healthcare, while I give up my stuff to make them happy.

Is that how the world is supposed to work?

And I will inform you---------->while working where I worked, I watched THOUSANDS of people hire in, and QUIT! The work was NOT worth the pay, or benefits they were to receive. NOW you want me to SUBSIDIZE those same people? You are kidding me, correct!

Ok lots of questions. I don't want to be evasive, but some of these questions don't have any bearing on national healthcare and it's relative value in comparison with for profit heath care.
- Population: Doesn't have any bearing on the per capita cost. Since these are averages. 12 Million but it's not important.
- Personal taxation: Also irrelevant because healthcare cost is a calculation of the cost out of pocket PLUS taxation. But again in the interest of honesty 50 percent more or less.
- Ingress of outsiders in social security. Again irrelevant, talking averages here. But to answer your question, yes. In fact Belgium population 12 million had a larger influx of refugees then the US per capita. Mostly Syrians.

Now we come with the things that could be relevant.
-Yes, we are a member of Nato. In fact Nato headquarters is in Brussels. We spend .9 percent of GDP on the Military. As opposed to the 3.6 the US spends although the US has a lot of expenditures outside Nato. Defense Expenditures Of NATO Members Visualized [Infographic]
- On the other hand Belgium spend 10 percent of it's GDP on healthcare compared to the 17 percent the US does.Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data

So even if Belgium would spend the same amount of it's GDP on the military it would still be considerably less taken together than the US spends on healthcare alone.

As to my personal situation. Yes I'm middle class. Have a fully paid house at 40 although I'm afraid our cost per acreage is considerably higher than most of the US so it's not that big, since we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I have a 3 year old Mercedes to drive and a company car. I used to be Blue collar but I'm a supervisor now. All in all I'm pretty comparable I think.

Now to your question. You, I and every other person pays for stuff that you don't necessarily use. You pay for a military, roads, prisons and yes healthcare, basic as it may be. After that isn't just a matter of how much your willing to pay for certainty? I pay wayyyyy more taxes. On the other hand, just like I said. Me and my family will never have to worry about what happens when I get sick, lose my job or if my kids will get a decent education. So yes I want to subsidize the lazies. Because not all the people who live on the system are there of their own volition and yes it could happen to you to.

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

- Of course you don't get the logic. You look at taxes as something the government takes to waste on other people. I look at taxes as me paying the government to render certain services to me and my countrymen. My 50 percent buys me paternity and maternity leave, 20 payed holidays, another 6 official payed holidays on certain dates. Roads without potholes, a first class public transportation system that doesn't just service big cities. Healthcare, near free college. The assurance that I will be able to survive if not in luxury no matter what befalls me. Plus all the services like police and fire department. There is no student debt nor people who have to make choices between food or medicine.

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

What do you pay for medicine? Is it subsidized by the government, or rather, it is it given to you for low cost?

 

[Cellblock2429]

I'll try a companion thread to the one on liberal policies.

My response to that thread was "The worst liberal policy is the same it's always been: Lowering standards & expectations for groups it decides are oppressed, and in turn enabling that group's worst behaviors, hurting them and the country in the future."

For this thread, I'd say: The worst conservative policy is their absolute refusal to admit and accept the fact that, in any given socioeconomic system, there will be people who function better within it, and those who function worse within it. And those people are being left behind, FAR behind, with this absolutist anti-government madness that began when the Right took Reagan's "government is the problem" speech tag line as literal gospel.

The hardcore Left has wrecked our culture; the hardcore Right has wrecked our socioeconomics. A pox on both houses.

Any thoughts?
.

/—-/ Our most destructive policies are eating our own when we are falsely accused of being racists, the the circular firing squad for our bad boys vs Dems circling the wagons to protect theirs. Being inclusive when we are in power while the democRATs lock us out when they are in power. Trusting the media to get our message out and finally the most destructive is caving in to democRATs to prove we can get along.

 

[forkup]

Ok lots of questions. I don't want to be evasive, but some of these questions don't have any bearing on national healthcare and it's relative value in comparison with for profit heath care.
- Population: Doesn't have any bearing on the per capita cost. Since these are averages. 12 Million but it's not important.
- Personal taxation: Also irrelevant because healthcare cost is a calculation of the cost out of pocket PLUS taxation. But again in the interest of honesty 50 percent more or less.
- Ingress of outsiders in social security. Again irrelevant, talking averages here. But to answer your question, yes. In fact Belgium population 12 million had a larger influx of refugees then the US per capita. Mostly Syrians.

Now we come with the things that could be relevant.
-Yes, we are a member of Nato. In fact Nato headquarters is in Brussels. We spend .9 percent of GDP on the Military. As opposed to the 3.6 the US spends although the US has a lot of expenditures outside Nato. Defense Expenditures Of NATO Members Visualized [Infographic]
- On the other hand Belgium spend 10 percent of it's GDP on healthcare compared to the 17 percent the US does.Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data

So even if Belgium would spend the same amount of it's GDP on the military it would still be considerably less taken together than the US spends on healthcare alone.

As to my personal situation. Yes I'm middle class. Have a fully paid house at 40 although I'm afraid our cost per acreage is considerably higher than most of the US so it's not that big, since we are one of the most densely populated countries in the world. I have a 3 year old Mercedes to drive and a company car. I used to be Blue collar but I'm a supervisor now. All in all I'm pretty comparable I think.

Now to your question. You, I and every other person pays for stuff that you don't necessarily use. You pay for a military, roads, prisons and yes healthcare, basic as it may be. After that isn't just a matter of how much your willing to pay for certainty? I pay wayyyyy more taxes. On the other hand, just like I said. Me and my family will never have to worry about what happens when I get sick, lose my job or if my kids will get a decent education. So yes I want to subsidize the lazies. Because not all the people who live on the system are there of their own volition and yes it could happen to you to.

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

- Of course you don't get the logic. You look at taxes as something the government takes to waste on other people. I look at taxes as me paying the government to render certain services to me and my countrymen. My 50 percent buys me paternity and maternity leave, 20 payed holidays, another 6 official payed holidays on certain dates. Roads without potholes, a first class public transportation system that doesn't just service big cities. Healthcare, near free college. The assurance that I will be able to survive if not in luxury no matter what befalls me. Plus all the services like police and fire department. There is no student debt nor people who have to make choices between food or medicine.

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

What do you pay for medicine? Is it subsidized by the government, or rather, it is it given to you for low cost?

When I give you the healthcare cost as a percentage of GDP this does include the price of medicine. So your question is irrelevant. I have to tell you tough this is starting to bore me. Don't get me wrong I appreciate that you are trying to have a civil conversation but in the same breath you aren't showing me the honesty and respect I show you. You have done this now a few times and I already called you on it once. Disregarding the points and counterpoints I make by just jumping to the next thing is not having an honest conversation. You made a very specific claim without sourcing.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

I have given you a very specific answer to that claim. One I did source

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

Either you concede that my healthcare system is indeed 7 percent of GDP cheaper then yours or you answer the challenge.

I really don't want to be rude. But my purpose here is to debate ( which I love) but to do so in a way that is honest. I try not to use tactics. I very much try not to dodge hard questions or use logical fallacies. I try to source and when I don't I usually apologize. As such I put on myself certain restrictions. Like for instance when comparing healthcare cost, not using the cost in absolute figures which is skewed towards me but to use the more honest, cost as a percentage of GDP. I do not expect you to employ the same restrictions, what I do expect is that you at least try to engage the premise of what I say.

 

[imawhosure]

Well, at least it appears you are an honest broker, and I will thank you for that.

Now, let me finish up with a few questions, not to keyhole you, but to make you think!

Do you have between 8 and 10% of your population illegal aliens?

Does your country want to grant them ALL the benefits that you now enjoy?

Is your country in debt? And if it is, is it to the tune of over 1 years worth of GDP?

Let me explain something to you, and you may not like it. If we go broke, we are out of business, plain and simple. We are the protectorate of free Europe. If we fail, Moscow is going to walk right through everyone but Germany. And since Germany will be taken out 1st, once they do it Europe will collapse. In essence, all of Europe will form the NEW Soviet Union, and that is exactly what Putin wants to do.

Now LISTEN TO ME! I do NOT want any of my dollars, Francs, Pesos, or anything else, going to the protection of Europe! I do not want American troops in Germany, or anywhere else. I am tired of propping up the European continent with MY tax dollars, but if we do not, then you will be over run.

So when ANYONE in Europe tells me about how their system is wonderful, and it works, I ask them...…….."do YOU and your country have nuclear weapons?" "Do you have a standing army ready to fight?"

If you don't, then you are worried about the wrong thing, OR you are comfortable enough that the US is taking care to keep Putin out, so as YOU can spend your money to keep your citizens happy, although, they are probably not informed.

Personally, I think you are a very nice, honest, and caring person. BUT KNOW THIS------------>The day the United States collapses because of its debt, is the day that Vlad the Impaler, takes everything from YOU!

Now then, knowing that...…...are YOU SURE you want us to be Socialist, just like you...………..knowing full well, that if we do, Vlad is going to take your food, money, and healthcare will be the LEAST of your problems.

I wish you and your country well! I am happy, that you are happy, with 50% tax rates-)

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

- Of course you don't get the logic. You look at taxes as something the government takes to waste on other people. I look at taxes as me paying the government to render certain services to me and my countrymen. My 50 percent buys me paternity and maternity leave, 20 payed holidays, another 6 official payed holidays on certain dates. Roads without potholes, a first class public transportation system that doesn't just service big cities. Healthcare, near free college. The assurance that I will be able to survive if not in luxury no matter what befalls me. Plus all the services like police and fire department. There is no student debt nor people who have to make choices between food or medicine.

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

What do you pay for medicine? Is it subsidized by the government, or rather, it is it given to you for low cost?

When I give you the healthcare cost as a percentage of GDP this does include the price of medicine. So your question is irrelevant. I have to tell you tough this is starting to bore me. Don't get me wrong I appreciate that you are trying to have a civil conversation but in the same breath you aren't showing me the honesty and respect I show you. You have done this now a few times and I already called you on it once. Disregarding the points and counterpoints I make by just jumping to the next thing is not having an honest conversation. You made a very specific claim without sourcing.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

I have given you a very specific answer to that claim. One I did source

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

Either you concede that my healthcare system is indeed 7 percent of GDP cheaper then yours or you answer the challenge.

I really don't want to be rude. But my purpose here is to debate ( which I love) but to do so in a way that is honest. I try not to use tactics. I very much try not to dodge hard questions or use logical fallacies. I try to source and when I don't I usually apologize. As such I put on myself certain restrictions. Like for instance when comparing healthcare cost, not using the cost in absolute figures which is skewed towards me but to use the more honest, cost as a percentage of GDP. I do not expect you to employ the same restrictions, what I do expect is that you at least try to engage the premise of what I say.

Your price of medicine, is relevant! Our system pays for the increase of drug technology. If you are getting lowball prices, YOU are part of the problem!

 

[forkup]

-You know what I find interesting about this conversation?..... You ask me questions, which I answer honestly. After I do, you just act like I haven't said anything.

-You keep on speaking about debt and taxes, what you don't seem to acknowledge is that I just showed how to save 7 percent of the GDP. Seven percent of the GDP means your debt would be payed of in 14 years. The only thing you need to do is adopt the Socialized Healthcare system we have. It's an oversimplification of course but it does show that your fear of the government taking over your healthcare system is unwarranted.

-As to 8 to 10 percent of the US population being illegals. You just overstated that percentage by an order of magnitude of 3
New Estimate of 22 Million Illegal Immigrants Is Not Plausible
Neither are illegals eligible for all benefits and a lot of them work actually contributing to your GDP.
In Belgium it's about 2 percent. How though does it bring you ANY closer to claiming that social security is bad?

-Lastly I want to talk about this assertion that because you need your military you can not be socialist. And the implication you are trying to make that the US is doing us the favor of protecting us from the Russians. Russia's military budget is 48 million. The EU's is 192 million.Common Security and Defence Policy - Wikipedia
Military budget of the Russian Federation - Wikipedia Who would you back?
As I already said having socialized healthcare is almost 2 times cheaper than for profit healthcare. Neither is the US ever done anything out of the kindness of your heart. The US has had a hammerlock on trade and culture precisely because you guy projected your power the way you did. In 2008 the US literally bankrupted entire countries by your unbridled capitalism and it's consequences. The way I see it I have more to fear from how Americans view capitalism than you have to fear from our version of Social Democracy.

My good person, you have yourself proclaimed your tax rate is 50%. Like Obama said------------->If you like your tax rate, you can keep it! Canada's is over 50%. I just don't get your logic at all.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

Still, if you are happy with your system, I have absolutely no problem with that. You do you, and let us do us!

- Of course you don't get the logic. You look at taxes as something the government takes to waste on other people. I look at taxes as me paying the government to render certain services to me and my countrymen. My 50 percent buys me paternity and maternity leave, 20 payed holidays, another 6 official payed holidays on certain dates. Roads without potholes, a first class public transportation system that doesn't just service big cities. Healthcare, near free college. The assurance that I will be able to survive if not in luxury no matter what befalls me. Plus all the services like police and fire department. There is no student debt nor people who have to make choices between food or medicine.

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

What do you pay for medicine? Is it subsidized by the government, or rather, it is it given to you for low cost?

When I give you the healthcare cost as a percentage of GDP this does include the price of medicine. So your question is irrelevant. I have to tell you tough this is starting to bore me. Don't get me wrong I appreciate that you are trying to have a civil conversation but in the same breath you aren't showing me the honesty and respect I show you. You have done this now a few times and I already called you on it once. Disregarding the points and counterpoints I make by just jumping to the next thing is not having an honest conversation. You made a very specific claim without sourcing.

As far as saving 7% of the GDP, that is a joke, and has been disproven over, and over.

I have given you a very specific answer to that claim. One I did source

-Ok Belgium. Healthcare (state run) percentage of gdp 10.04
Usa. Healthcare (for profit) percentage of gdp 17.07
17.07-10.04= 7.03 Current health expenditure (% of GDP) | Data
Go ahead debunk it, or for that matter show me anyone who does?

Either you concede that my healthcare system is indeed 7 percent of GDP cheaper then yours or you answer the challenge.

I really don't want to be rude. But my purpose here is to debate ( which I love) but to do so in a way that is honest. I try not to use tactics. I very much try not to dodge hard questions or use logical fallacies. I try to source and when I don't I usually apologize. As such I put on myself certain restrictions. Like for instance when comparing healthcare cost, not using the cost in absolute figures which is skewed towards me but to use the more honest, cost as a percentage of GDP. I do not expect you to employ the same restrictions, what I do expect is that you at least try to engage the premise of what I say.

Your price of medicine, is relevant! Our system pays for the increase of drug technology. If you are getting lowball prices, YOU are part of the problem!

-It seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it to. You can not both claim that for profit healthcare drives the prices of healthcare down and then complain that socialized healthcare is cheaper.
-It fails on merit to. Medicine is traded on the open market in Europe just like it is in the US. And no for profit business will ever sell a product at a loss. Even if that wasn't true. Please explain why you seem to think if Europe just overprices their medicine, big pharma will reduce the prices they charge you guys? I don't think that's how Capitalism works, do you?
U.S. insulin costs per patient nearly doubled from 2012 to 2016: study - Reuters
Guess what.... the price in Belgium didn't halve. This was big pharma deciding that they could get away with giving you the choice between poverty and death for a lot of people. I find it ironic that you blame people for paying less money but have no problem with corporate greed.

-Yes medicine is cheaper. It is cheaper for one main reason. My politicians have a vested interest in keeping prices of medicine down. So they enact policy to do so. Like for instance making it mandatory for doctors to offer the generic version of a drug if available. Your politicians need the money that big pharma pumps in their campaigns to get elected. So they are incentivized to protect those companies profit margins.
-You didn't debunk my claim by the way. Merely tried to find an excuse for it.

 

[Mac1958]

Trusting the media to get our message out and finally the most destructive is caving in to democRATs to prove we can get along.

I really don't think anyone is expecting the wings to "get along". They clearly no longer have that capacity. Or the interest.

It will be up to the rest of us.
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